1 hour to empty - crosswind landing

skidoo

skidoo

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skidoo
I think I know the answer, but why not ask here anyway.

Story: So, here I am with the tanks getting low about 1/2 hour on each tank (just as planned), and the tower clears me to land, straight in about 5 miles out. No problem, except the winds are about 18kts at 60 deg cross.

So, I start to set up a left slip approach, and sure enough the left tank goes straight to empty on the gauge and I get the low fuel alert. I thought that should not be a problem because I always fly with the fuel selector on Both. But, within seconds of thinking that, I decided that the risk was not worth continuing that way because I was not 100% confident at that moment. So, I changed to a coordinated crab approach until I was certain to make the runway.

I believe it should be no problem. If I am wrong, please help convince me what to watch out for. So, on a late model C182, fuel selector on both, what is the risk of sucking air in the line when one tank opens the input port?
 
Shouldnt be a issue if you keep the selector on both. If the winds were that strong i think i would have went to a alternate airport with a runway more aligned with the winds. Ive often worried about this exact thing if the winds were unsafe to land at my intended airport and low on fuel.
 
Did the airport have a second runway? I was with a pilot recently who said to the tower "say the winds" when he was on base or final, they read him the winds (a crosswind), then he asked them if he could have the other runway. Made for an interesting "pattern" and of course with my fear of towered airports I would have never thought to ask ATC something like that.
 
flyer said:
Shouldnt be a issue if you keep the selector on both. If the winds were that strong i think i would have went to a alternate airport with a runway more aligned with the winds. Ive often worried about this exact thing if the winds were unsafe to land at my intended airport and low on fuel.
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A 15 kt crosswind component would send you to an alternate? What do you fly?
 
skidoo said:
I think I know the answer, but why not ask here anyway.

Story: So, here I am with the tanks getting low about 1/2 hour on each tank (just as planned), and the tower clears me to land, straight in about 5 miles out. No problem, except the winds are about 18kts at 60 deg cross.


I believe it should be no problem. If I am wrong, please help convince me what to watch out for. So, on a late model C182, fuel selector on both, what is the risk of sucking air in the line when one tank opens the input port?
Click to expand...

What's wrong with this picture?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Did the airport have a second runway? I was with a pilot recently who said to the tower "say the winds" when he was on base or final, they read him the winds (a crosswind), then he asked them if he could have the other runway. Made for an interesting "pattern" and of course with my fear of towered airports I would have never thought to ask ATC something like that.
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Yes, but I didn't think to ask for it. At the time, I was thinking the cross wind wasn't that much and I could handle it. On my wind indicator it appeared to be only about 30 deg from the left. But, it seemed like I had to crab a lot for that angle.

Just now I realized my mistake. I got the winds on ATIS and it seemed to agree with the wind indicator. So, I failed to figure the actual cross wind, and I don't remember what the actual report was at the time. My other mistake was forgetting to account for my left crab to the runway. So, the winds were actually further left than my course. The landing was actually pretty good. I checked the ATIS a few hours later and they were 60 deg cross at 18 gust to 26.
 
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Anything else related to trip planning and destination weather updates come to mind?

skidoo said:
I know what you are thinking... Is one hour reserve not enough?
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Did the airport have a second runway? I was with a pilot recently who said to the tower "say the winds" when he was on base or final, they read him the winds (a crosswind), then he asked them if he could have the other runway. Made for an interesting "pattern" and of course with my fear of towered airports I would have never thought to ask ATC something like that.
Click to expand...
Get rid of that fear. ATC is there to help us if we need it!
 
wabower said:
Anything else related to trip planning and destination weather updates come to mind?
Click to expand...

Forecast was cavu and calm winds. Winds aloft were as forecast, but winds at the surface were stronger than expected. Was at max landing weight at time of arrival...
 
GCA319 said:
Get rid of that fear. ATC is there to help us if we need it!
Click to expand...

I'm learning to love them. It takes time for a girl who was trained at an untowered airport. Each flight (such as this flight which was an Angel Flight in a six seater Bonanza) I am learning more and more about how great ATC is.

Especially when you have that Angel Flight call sign.
 
If the plane has a "both" position it must work with one tank empty...
 
skidoo said:
Forecast was cavu and calm winds. Winds aloft were as forecast, but winds at the surface were stronger than expected. Was at max landing weight at time of arrival...
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With only one hour of fuel left you were at max landing weight when you arrived? :hairraise:

Hard to imagine what weight you were at at takeoff. :dunno:
 
Dunno about doing it on both, or how hard you were slipping...

But in a Cessna 120 a hard slip into a low tank would definitely unport the fuel line. It would usually run OK down final, but if you tried to go around, you got that moment of silence.

I suspect that you would have been OK for a few minutes. It would take time for the 3 or 4 gallons remaining in the high tank to run down into the low tank with the little bit of head that you generate in a moderate slip.
 
skidoo said:
I think I know the answer, but why not ask here anyway.

Story: So, here I am with the tanks getting low about 1/2 hour on each tank (just as planned), and the tower clears me to land, straight in about 5 miles out. No problem, except the winds are about 18kts at 60 deg cross.

So, I start to set up a left slip approach, and sure enough the left tank goes straight to empty on the gauge and I get the low fuel alert. I thought that should not be a problem because I always fly with the fuel selector on Both. But, within seconds of thinking that, I decided that the risk was not worth continuing that way because I was not 100% confident at that moment. So, I changed to a coordinated crab approach until I was certain to make the runway.

I believe it should be no problem. If I am wrong, please help convince me what to watch out for. So, on a late model C182, fuel selector on both, what is the risk of sucking air in the line when one tank opens the input port?
Click to expand...

I can't answer that last question, but I can offer advice: if you know you can land in certain crosswind conditions, crab until the flare. If your engine dies, it dies at 1 foot above a runway.
 
spiderweb said:
I can't answer that last question, but I can offer advice: if you know you can land in certain crosswind conditions, crab until the flare. If your engine dies, it dies at 1 foot above a runway.
Click to expand...

Yep, the answer is "crab and kick". Oh, lose the fear of ATC, too....

How? Repetition!

-Skip
 
Late model 182 no problem. You have a header tank to prevent sucking air if one tank becomes unported.

Crosswind is well within the airplanes capabilities. On the bigger Cessna's I use the crab technique, just because my foot gets tired of holding the rudder all the way down in a side slip. Plenty of authority to straighten it up at the end. If your worried about that just transition to a sideslip a couple of times on the way down and see if you can hold center line.

All I can say is the weather is going to force you to land many times in similar conditions, better to get comfortable rather than expect to divert.
 
skidoo said:
Forecast was cavu and calm winds. Winds aloft were as forecast, but winds at the surface were stronger than expected. Was at max landing weight at time of arrival...
Click to expand...

One hour of fuel remaining puts you at Max landing weight?
Then you must have been way over gross at takeoff.

The C182S I fly only has about 10# difference between max ramp weight and max takeoff, flying, landing weight.

If you can't handle 18 knots at 60 degrees, I know a lot of places and a lot of days that you would not be flying.
 
BillTIZ said:
One hour of fuel remaining puts you at Max landing weight?
Then you must have been way over gross at takeoff.

The C182S I fly only has about 10# difference between max ramp weight and max takeoff, flying, landing weight.
Click to expand...

182R I fly has a 150lb difference between takeoff and landing weights
 
Skylane81E said:
182R I fly has a 150lb difference between takeoff and landing weights
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You're right, there is 10# difference between max ramp (3110#) and max flying weight (3100#) and the max landing weight is 2950# for the C182S.

But if at max for takeoff with 88 gallons of fuel, a little over 2hrs of flying is required to get below max landing weight. At 11gph that bird can stay in the air longer than my bladder can.
 
BillTIZ said:
You're right, there is 10# difference between max ramp (3110#) and max flying weight (3100#) and the max landing weight is 2950# for the C182S.

But if at max for takeoff with 88 gallons of fuel, a little over 2hrs of flying is required to get below max landing weight. At 11gph that bird can stay in the air longer than my bladder can.
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There is an overweight landing inspection if you violate the landing weight.

It's cake to do.
 
Take a 400 pounder and two other passengers for a ride and you can end up using every bit of that 2950!
 
BillTIZ said:
You're right, there is 10# difference between max ramp (3110#) and max flying weight (3100#) and the max landing weight is 2950# for the C182S.

But if at max for takeoff with 88 gallons of fuel, a little over 2hrs of flying is required to get below max landing weight. At 11gph that bird can stay in the air longer than my bladder can.
Click to expand...

I can think of loads where he'd have three hours of gas on board and launch at MGTOW in a 182, fly two hours and be landing at max landing weight.

Not that hard to do.
 
Skylane81E said:
There is an overweight landing inspection if you violate the landing weight.

It's cake to do.
Click to expand...

I always thought this was crazy in the late model 182's. The useful load isn't that much. Couple that with a landing weight restriction. I don't get it.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I always thought this was crazy in the late model 182's. The useful load isn't that much. Couple that with a landing weight restriction. I don't get it.
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I don't get restart 182s, the W&B I looked at for one showed less than 1000lbs available at take off.


I've got 1250.
 
Skylane81E said:
I don't get restart 182s, the W&B I looked at for one showed less than 1000lbs available at take off.


I've got 1250.
Click to expand...

C182S, 1972# empty weight, leaves 1128# usefull load.
That's 88 gallons full fuel, 528#, 350# in the front row and still can put 250# in the back seats.
 
BillTIZ said:
C182S, 1972# empty weight, leaves 1128# usefull load.
That's 88 gallons full fuel, 528#, 350# in the front row and still can put 250# in the back seats.
Click to expand...

Sweet, the one I saw was a full 150lbs fatter!
 
denverpilot said:
I can think of loads where he'd have three hours of gas on board and launch at MGTOW in a 182, fly two hours and be landing at max landing weight.

Not that hard to do.
Click to expand...

This was pretty much the case here...
 
Alexb2000 said:
Late model 182 no problem. You have a header tank to prevent sucking air if one tank becomes unported.

Crosswind is well within the airplanes capabilities. On the bigger Cessna's I use the crab technique, just because my foot gets tired of holding the rudder all the way down in a side slip. Plenty of authority to straighten it up at the end. If your worried about that just transition to a sideslip a couple of times on the way down and see if you can hold center line.

All I can say is the weather is going to force you to land many times in similar conditions, better to get comfortable rather than expect to divert.
Click to expand...


This is the answer I was looking for. I like your recommendation.
 
Skylane81E said:
I don't get restart 182s, the W&B I looked at for one showed less than 1000lbs available at take off.


I've got 1250.
Click to expand...

That is like mine. The weight of all the avionics, the turbo, and oxygen tank consume a good bit of useful load.
 
Henning said:
A 15 kt crosswind component would send you to an alternate? What do you fly?
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I have a 172M model. Been many of times over the years ive had to divert to a alternate airport because of winds or other weather, diverting is all part of VFR flying ;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Dunno about doing it on both, or how hard you were slipping...

But in a Cessna 120 a hard slip into a low tank would definitely unport the fuel line. It would usually run OK down final, but if you tried to go around, you got that moment of silence.

I suspect that you would have been OK for a few minutes. It would take time for the 3 or 4 gallons remaining in the high tank to run down into the low tank with the little bit of head that you generate in a moderate slip.
Click to expand...
I believe you'd find that fuel from the higher wing would be flowing INTO the tank on the low wing in a prolonged slip with minimal fuel in the lower tank. IMO, baring something that causes low pressure in the higher tank there's simply no way for air to get into the fuel lines because the air would have to flow "downhill" against the flow of fuel.
 
I'm guessing here that the runway was not 18?

I'm also guessing that the POH might have a warning against doing a full deflection slip for more than 30 seconds with tanks less than 1/2 full?
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm guessing here that the runway was not 18?

I'm also guessing that the POH might have a warning against doing a full deflection slip for more than 30 seconds with tanks less than 1/2 full?
Click to expand...

This is from the T206H POH (I don't have the 182 electronically), I believe the fuel system is the same:

Takeoff and land with the fuel selector valve handle in the BOTH position.

Maximum slip or skid duration with one tank dry: 30 seconds.

Operation on either LEFT or RIGHT tank limited to level flight only.

With 1/4 tank or less, prolonged uncoordinated flight is prohibited when operating on either left or right tank.
 
Alexb2000 said:
This is from the T206H POH (I don't have the 182 electronically), I believe the fuel system is the same:

Takeoff and land with the fuel selector valve handle in the BOTH position.

Maximum slip or skid duration with one tank dry: 30 seconds.

Operation on either LEFT or RIGHT tank limited to level flight only.

With 1/4 tank or less, prolonged uncoordinated flight is prohibited when operating on either left or right tank.
Click to expand...

Thanks! This is a great response too. It is indeed in my POH; reads the same. This was my concern. The tank was not actually dry, but reads dry as a result of the slip. But, maybe that actually means dry such that if in a slip in the wrong direction, the dry tank could be up slope?
 
skidoo said:
Thanks! This is a great response too. It is indeed in my POH; reads the same. This was my concern. The tank was not actually dry, but reads dry as a result of the slip. But, maybe that actually means dry such that if in a slip in the wrong direction, the dry tank could be up slope?
Click to expand...

Exactly, that's the way I've always understood it.

All I can say is that I can't even count the number of full slip finals I've flown with the same or slightly less gas than you had and I've never had a hiccup.

BTW- I don't understand why someone would run one tank dry in a 182.
 
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