0.25 bac going for third class

M

Mike@9D9

Filing Flight Plan
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Mike@9D9
Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster.

My name's Mike and I'm an alcoholic. Sober as a gopher for 19 months now, and going for 3rd class on the path to PPL.

1 offense and it's a biggie as shown in the title. 42 years old now, OWI (DUI) 10/27/21, initial BAC 0.23 at time of arrest, 0.25 when I was booked.

I've read all the DUI posts here (literally all of em), as well as some other corners of the web. It's important enough to me that it's worth the work. Going to keep y'all updated in this thread as my case progresses through.

I was in AA, even after court stopped requiring it. I stopped liking it, so I stopped going, but going ro start going again as I know it'll be required anyways (I have nothing against the religious aspect of it, I just got to the point that the only time I thought about drinking was because I was going to AA to talk about drinking). That, and I moved, got busy, had to shampoo the lawn and mow the dog... I don't feel like I need group therapy, but I understand why FAA would insist that I do, so back to drinking ****ty coffee several times a week it is!

Some background. Alcoholic as stated, started noticing a problem in late 20s, but didn't consider myself an alcoholic. Was dry for a few years but definitely didn't want to quit (my wife at the time made an ultimatum). After we inevitably divorced, I started drinking again. Not copious amounts. At first. When covid shutdown started and I was furloughed for 3 months, my new hobby became drinking. Every day. Lots, and I mean a 15 pack of beer a day at times. That pace usually finds very few endings.

I was moving stuff as we had just sold our house, and it was just a day of **** poor decisions. Dont think I ate anything, drank too much, then instead of camping at the old house like i planned, i decided i could get 1 more load moved (new place was only 20 minutes away). I blacked out at about 20mph and hit a telephone pole. Homeowner called 911 and woke me up. Cops got there a few minutes later, giving me enough time to accept my fate and cooperate. Got pled down to regular OWI, rather than HIGH BAC ("Super drunk"), due mainly I think to it being my 1st offense, and the BAC still climbing. I know the FAA doesn't give a rip about that, just giving context.

Anyhoo... I'll post constructive updates along the way.

Mike
 
You will get noplace without (3rd class only) 24 months of substantiatable sobirety (urine test program, in one case I also had a letter from the stitting county sheriff, talk about "in a postion to know"!!), continual AA logged attendance. You will need to be able to discusse the 12 steps, ably, and how they applied to you. Yes, object all you wish but they have something you want and so you do it their way. With your "take on AA" you are unlikely to succeed. In your situaiton I recommend a long term relationship with a "AA sponsor".

For any thing but a 3rd class, start with full formal rehab (160 hours, yes it's a lot). The agnecy views that as "education" (and they don't care what it costs you). And it is, for most, education.

FAA is about how you will perform in the NEXT year, as much as how you are now (a preruequisite). They don't believe you have a channce they're willing to take until/ unless you have biweekly peer support. And that's a hey-no-kidding.
 
You know, flying can be VERY expensive even for a teetotaler. When you have the added time and cost of just continuously proving to the FAA that you can be a teetotaler, you have a lot of soul searching to do in this situation. Sometimes it's just not worth it, but that's obviously for you to decide.

The good news for everyone - if you do succeed you also take one drunken driver off the road.
 
bbchien said:
You will get noplace without (3rd class only) 24 months of substantiatable sobirety (urine test program, in one case I also had a letter from the stitting county sheriff, talk about "in a postion to know"!!), continual AA logged attendance. You will need to be able to discusse the 12 steps, ably, and how they applied to you. Yes, object all you wish but they have something you want and so you do it their way. With your "take on AA" you are unlikely to succeed. In your situaiton I recommend a long term relationship with a "AA sponsor".

For any thing but a 3rd class, start with full formal rehab (160 hours, yes it's a lot). The agnecy views that as "education" (and they don't care what it costs you). And it is, for most, education.

FAA is about how you will perform in the NEXT year, as much as how you are now (a preruequisite). They don't believe you have a channce they're willing to take until/ unless you have biweekly peer support. And that's a hey-no-kidding.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Dr. Bruce.

I understand completely. I do like AA, I even volunteered at the local mental health sub-acute detox as an AA chair for about 6 months. But AA just isn't for everybody, for the rest of their lives. I stopped going before I realized I was going to even try for my PPL, and had no idea (my own ignorance), that proof of sobriety was a requirement for a license.

I'm all-in on taking the required steps. And hey, going back to AA will do me no harm. After I was sober for over a year, I intended on just paring back my attendance to once a week. Life got busy and I didn't make AA a priority, nor did I feel I NEEDED to. I still don't, for myself, feel I need to go to AA. But again, I 100% understand why the FAA would insist otherwise and I'm not going to resist one bit, which is why I'm going to a meeting at lunch (new group, since my last group is a 45 minutes drive since I moved a few months ago).

Sorry if my initial post was unclear on that position. I don't take back the crappy coffee remark, it really is crappy coffee.
 
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dbahn said:
You know, flying can be VERY expensive even for a teetotaler. When you have the added time and cost of just continuously proving to the FAA that you can be a teetotaler, you have a lot of soul searching to do in this situation. Sometimes it's just not worth it, but that's obviously for you to decide.

The good news for everyone - if you do succeed you also take one drunken driver off the road.
Click to expand...

Agree completely. Took another drunk driver off the road 19 months ago. The pursuit of my PPL doesn't change that, it just requires I prove it with testing and attendance sheets, which is fine. Certainly not a bad thing to get back into regular meetings, whether I feel I need it or not.

Have a great day!
 
Dana said:
Depending on what you want out of flying, a Sport Pilot certificate instead of Private might be an option, requiring no medical (as long as you haven't actually failed the medical and have a driver's license).
Click to expand...

I considered it, and was going to go this route. My wife and I plan to retire in the UP of Michigan (while keeping a house in Southern MI). So the convenience of a 3 hour flight vs a 15 hour car ride is 1 huge factor. And we have dogs, so a SPL won't fit the bill.

Another consideration is being able to see the country in the same fashion.

True, SPL is better than no flying privileges, but serves me no real purpose. If I can't get medical (which by my understanding, the only real reason I wouldn't be able to is if I mess up or decide it's not worth it), then there's no practical purpose for me to fly. If that's what happens, life will go on and I will be just fine. I'll be bummed, but life will still be every bit as enjoyable as I make it. Frankly, even coming up on 2 years since my arrest, I'm grateful for a new lease on life and have been making the most of every day (well, I try to).

This post was more to add a point of reference to catalog my journey for others who may be in the same circumstance. Of all the other DUI posts I've found, none were exact to my position, so I wanted to just give another set of variables for others to study up on.

I do have a consultation with a HIMS AME next Wednesday. If he says I have a chance at all, I'm moving forward. If it is 100%, never gonna happen, I wouldn't waste any further time or money, but I don't glean that to be accurate from the research I've done so far.

More to come :)
 
Update:

I met with a local HIMS AME, and it turned out he's extremely knowledgeable in this area. He doesn't seem concerned at all about me getting my third class. He did advise that I will for sure be required to do the psych evaluation. He also advised that I round up all documents before I submit my MedXpress, which I know has been stated here many times as well.

I submitted my MedXpress today, and have my evaluation in a few weeks with my AME. I have all court docs, probation, clinical psychologist evaluation, arrest record, and even though my AME said it's not required, I did start regularly attending AA again and getting the slip signed, just in case. Can't hurt, and I found a noon group that's 6 minutes from work so I go a couple time a week during lunch.

So, nothing of substance yet, just formally started the actual process today. I also have a recommendation letter from my probation officer (whom I've kept in contact with), as well as a few AA members and former coworkers (I just got a new job a couple months ago, so current coworkers won't carry much weight).

My AME said most of it probably won't even be needed, but I figured I'd get them just in case they were. He did also advise me that if I got 1 more incident, I would never fly more than an ultralight. I didn't really need more motivation, personally, to stay abstinent, but I appreciate the extra reality check anytime.

Will post another update in probably a month, after my exam is done and I have more substantial updates to provide.
 
There are some experimental aircraft that are 4 seaters, the airplanes are generally newer, better avionics and cheaper to run. It’s still an option.

I love flying, but I don’t think I’d go through those steps mentioned above to obtain a 3rd class.
 
You need a 3rd class to fly a 4 seater.

Light Sport means an aircraft,
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.
 
I’m waaayyy in favor of partying and having a good time. Love having drinks at the bar.
That said, I never ever ever drive after a single beer. It’s just not worth it. Not only on a flying level, but a driving level as well. I never want to kill someone due to my indulgence. —> Uber.

ETA- I realize that will not help your situation. Good luck.
 
I missed whether you've actually started flying lessons (and don't need that 3rd class til it's time to solo). If you have, you already know this, but flying is awesome, and worth all the time and money spent if you can afford it. And in your case (not that you seem to need it), another motivation to stay sober. Good luck in your journey!
 
Mike@9D9 said:
Anyhoo... I'll post constructive updates along the way.

Mike
Click to expand...

Good luck!

I attend AA meetings regularly (and don't consider it religious at all; it is what an attendee makes it), and have been for many years, and got my 3rd class medical a few years ago. Jumped to Basic Med earlier this year because the hoops I had to jump through were dumb.

It's doable but it won't be cheap and it won't be quick.
 
Good luck on your endeavors,it’s not going to be easy.
 
Resurrection of this old thread.

July 15th - all paperwork submitted by AME thru MedXpress

I asked my AME (thanks to Dr Bruce's mention of this in a different thread), if submitting a liver panel would help. AME said it's not a bad idea, so I got that done (levels were 9 and 11 for indicators they are interested in, which is awesome). Submitted 8/7

Sat in review until last Tuesday (2/20/24), when my MedXpress showed that I had a letter coming.

Got the certified letter today stating I need to sign releases for the FAA to release my medical file to my AME (which is kinda silly since that's where THEY got it from), and the psychiatrist.

Requirements are abstinence, obviously.
14/12 tests
2x/week support group meeting (AA, etc)

After 3-4 months and AME support, psych eval. With passing eval and AME confirmation of commitment to sponsor me, we (AME and I) can submit everything to request SI.

No neuro, IOP, character statements... Essentially we gave them everything they wanted and nothing they didn't want, so at this point we are starting the HIMS regimen as prescribed by AAM-313 in my letter.

To say I'm relieved (but cautiously optimistic still) would be a big understatement.
 
Mike@9D9 said:
Resurrection of this old thread.

July 15th - all paperwork submitted by AME thru MedXpress

I asked my AME (thanks to Dr Bruce's mention of this in a different thread), if submitting a liver panel would help. AME said it's not a bad idea, so I got that done (levels were 9 and 11 for indicators they are interested in, which is awesome). Submitted 8/7

Sat in review until last Tuesday (2/20/24), when my MedXpress showed that I had a letter coming.

Got the certified letter today stating I need to sign releases for the FAA to release my medical file to my AME (which is kinda silly since that's where THEY got it from), and the psychiatrist.

Requirements are abstinence, obviously.
14/12 tests
2x/week support group meeting (AA, etc)

After 3-4 months and AME support, psych eval. With passing eval and AME confirmation of commitment to sponsor me, we (AME and I) can submit everything to request SI.

No neuro, IOP, character statements... Essentially we gave them everything they wanted and nothing they didn't want, so at this point we are starting the HIMS regimen as prescribed by AAM-313 in my letter.

To say I'm relieved (but cautiously optimistic still) would be a big understatement.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're moving along really well!

I started my 14/12 tests in October 2022, so I am up to about 18 tests now. I initially submitted April 2023 and got a letter from FAA December 2023. It said I need to do IOP and some other things. My AME was surprised considering the random testing and clean history except for a 22 year-old DUI (only one). But my AME said there's really nothing to be done except comply, then appeal for SI. After speaking with six rehab facilities near me, all of which think I'm nuts for requesting alcohol IOP for a 22 year-old DUI and 18 months of abstinence, I finally found one I can afford and that has an evening program.

I didn't know about a liver panel, but I will ask my AME.
 
seerwright said:
It sounds like you're moving along really well!

I started my 14/12 tests in October 2022, so I am up to about 18 tests now. I initially submitted April 2023 and got a letter from FAA December 2023. It said I need to do IOP and some other things. My AME was surprised considering the random testing and clean history except for a 22 year-old DUI (only one). But my AME said there's really nothing to be done except comply, then appeal for SI. After speaking with six rehab facilities near me, all of which think I'm nuts for requesting alcohol IOP for a 22 year-old DUI and 18 months of abstinence, I finally found one I can afford and that has an evening program.

I didn't know about a liver panel, but I will ask my AME.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the AME and their statement has a lot to do with what the FAA requires. I'm definitely surprised by your IOP requirement. My AME said it was a possibility but he would do what he could to get me out of it.
 
There's only one person that I'm aware of that has the right to judge anyone and he ain't on this forum. :) That said, I say, go get it done, Mike@9D9. I for one wish you all the best in your quest for continued sobriety and your medical!
 
JScarry said:
You need a 3rd class to fly a 4 seater.

Light Sport means an aircraft,
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.
Click to expand...
Not to derail the topic - but MOSAIC may very well change that sometime in the next millennium! Still, even with the new rules, two of the four seats can only be occupied by the dogs or luggage.
 
Update: MedXpress shows a certification decision with a stop sign, and says I am "not medically certified to operate an aircraft". I suspect this is the formal denial, which I will confirm when I get the certified letter in 2-17 weeks

My quarterly with my HIMS AME is next Wednesday, 5/15, and psych eval is 6/20.

Only thing for me to do is keep logging AA attendance. Aside from that, just a waiting game on appointments and resubmitting for SI when the AME says to.

So, not much to report except movement from the FAA, which is a win at any point in the journey!
 
Oh yeah! Started the random screens in March. The AME only order the 5 panel drug test, which confused me. I asked if I should add ETG, and they said I could if I wanted to, but FAA only ordered the 5 panel. I thought that was strange, so I added ETG just to be safe. Not like I have anything to worry about, it just adds $70 per test which kinda sucks, but not a big deal in the grand scheme.

2nd test showed "diluted", which instantly got me anxious and a little mad, thinking the lab had to have screwed something up. Turns out, drinking coffee before the test is a bad thing. I should have known, but honestly it's such a normal part of my daily routine, I didn't think about it. Last 2 tests, no problem.

Pro tip - don't drink coffee or too much of any fluid on test day lol
 
Interesting....My letter stated I needed a 10 panel plus alcohol done 14/12mos. I paid $69 per test for the whole shooting match.
 
Mike@9D9 said:
Oh yeah! Started the random screens in March. The AME only order the 5 panel drug test, which confused me. I asked if I should add ETG, and they said I could if I wanted to, but FAA only ordered the 5 panel. I thought that was strange, so I added ETG just to be safe. Not like I have anything to worry about, it just adds $70 per test which kinda sucks, but not a big deal in the grand scheme.

2nd test showed "diluted", which instantly got me anxious and a little mad, thinking the lab had to have screwed something up. Turns out, drinking coffee before the test is a bad thing. I should have known, but honestly it's such a normal part of my daily routine, I didn't think about it. Last 2 tests, no problem.

Pro tip - don't drink coffee or too much of any fluid on test day lol
Click to expand...

I would not have done the ETG unless the FAA specifically required it. That diluted result may not be looked at favorably by the FAA.
 
I'm not going to sweat it. Diluted tests aren't uncommon. Biggest thing is to not have a pattern of them, or other factors in the test that would suggest foul play. Mine suggested overhydration or excess diuretic intake.

I'm on the HIMS program for a DUI, only makes sense to have documented alcohol sobriety. Not sure why cocaine, etc is an interest, but not ethanol. I just saw them saying etg would be required 6 months into testing, and that the clock starts over. I'm ok being proactive on this one.
 
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