Better, foreign system for traffic?

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
This is an apolitical post. It is expected of YOU to let it remain that way.
This is about traffic avoidance systems.

"He said in his private jet, he uses a system from another country when he lands because his pilot says the existing system in the U.S. is obsolete."

www.yahoo.com

Trump blames 'obsolete' US air traffic control system for the plane and chopper collision near DC

President Donald Trump on Thursday blamed the deadly collision of a passenger jet and Army helicopter last week on what he called an “obsolete” computer system used by U.S. air traffic controllers. Trump said during an event that “a lot of mistakes happened” on Jan. 29 when an American Airlines...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Can anyone specify what this system might be?
A foreign traffic avoidance system that is superior to ours.

Think twice before posting. We want the question answered, not drifting towards political judgments.

Thank you.
 
I have no idea what he's talking about. Consider this from the article;

But an FAA report after the crash said that the controller did get an alert that the plane and helicopter were converging when they were still more than a mile (1.6 kilometers) apart. The controller responded by asking the helicopter if it had the plane in sight and directed the helicopter to pass behind the plane. The helicopter responded that it did have the plane in sight.
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It will not matter what equippment is insalled if the pilot does not see & take action to avoid the collision.

Unless aircraft can be remotely or computer controlled just knowing the traffic is there doesn't fix the problem. As it stands now the pilot has the responsibility to identify the correct aircraft & take evasive action to avoid it.

Personnally I belive allowing two aircraft to pass 200' apart is not a good idea (unless you're flying with the Blues) ... ;)
 
Daleandee said:
Consider this from the article
Click to expand...
Respectfully, I'd rather not.
I only want answered 'is there another traffic system out there, foreign-based, that exceeds ours'?
Thanks. Trying to stay focused and not go down any rabbit holes.
 
Look out the window?

Scary thing about china, they use ADSB over primary radar in some remote places
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Respectfully, I'd rather not.
I only want answered 'is there another traffic system out there, foreign-based, that exceeds ours'?
Thanks. Trying to stay focused and not go down any rabbit holes.
Click to expand...

This is POA and it's full of rabbit holes. You get to ask the question but not make the rules for replies. Try to focus on that. ;)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
"He said in his private jet, he uses a system from another country when he lands because his pilot says the existing system in the U.S. is obsolete."
Click to expand...

Let'sgoflying! said:
I only want answered 'is there another traffic system out there, foreign-based, that exceeds ours'?
Click to expand...

Pretty obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about. Regardless of whether the US ATC system is "obsolete", his jet can't be using a different "system from another country" to interface with US ATC. His plane may have foreign manufactured avionics, but that has nothing to do with the US "system".
 
Isn’t some parts of USA ground based and whatever they use in Canada satellite based?

Could have sworn i saw that on poa
 
Given the amount of GA traffic in the NAS, it's difficult to compare the US ATC system to the systems of other (unnamed) countries.

And there are a lot of reasons why modernization efforts have been less successful than desired. Some of the reasons I can't post (sorry, but privileged info can't be posted and/or the reasons would get into the political environment)
 
I feel my question is well-answered (no, there is not some super duper, foreign traffic system I totally missed), thanks.
 
Here's the AI answer. Long but interesting:

The United States has one of the largest and most sophisticated air traffic control (ATC) systems in the world, but there are a few countries that are known for having particularly strong or innovative systems, which might outperform the US in certain aspects:

1. Germany
Efficient and Highly Automated: Germany is home to DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung, which is known for having a highly efficient and modern air traffic control system. The German system is highly automated, and they have been pioneers in integrating new technologies to manage traffic flow efficiently.
Low Accident Rate: Germany's ATC system has been noted for its exceptionally low accident rate, partly due to the precision in controlling air traffic in Europe, especially in congested airspace.
2. Switzerland
Precision and Punctuality: Swiss ATC, managed by Skyguide, has a reputation for being extremely punctual and precise, two qualities that are important in ensuring the safety and efficiency of air traffic. Switzerland’s relatively small airspace means the controllers can provide more personalized service and maintain close coordination.
Collaboration with Neighboring Countries: Switzerland also works in close coordination with neighboring countries' air traffic control systems, making cross-border operations highly efficient.
3. Singapore
Advanced Technology: Singapore’s Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) is one of the most technologically advanced ATC systems globally. They have embraced automation and satellite-based navigation (like ADS-B) to manage dense air traffic with impressive precision and minimal delays.
Air Traffic Management in a Global Hub: Singapore is a global aviation hub, and its ATC system handles a high volume of international flights efficiently, making it a model of modern air traffic management.
4. Australia
High-Tech Solutions: The Airservices Australia is responsible for ATC services in the country and is one of the leaders in adopting new technologies like satellite-based navigation (PBN) and automation to manage air traffic in their vast, sparsely populated airspace.
Focus on Safety: Australia is also known for its emphasis on air traffic safety, with a strong regulatory framework that integrates the latest safety technologies and practices.
5. United Kingdom
NATS (National Air Traffic Services): The UK has a highly efficient ATC system managed by NATS, known for managing complex airspace over one of the busiest skies in Europe. The UK’s system is known for its focus on reducing delays and handling congested airspace effectively.
Innovations in Flow Management: NATS has been a leader in introducing innovative solutions to improve air traffic flow, such as the use of performance-based navigation (PBN) and advanced air traffic flow management tools.
6. Norway
Efficient in Remote Areas: Norway’s Avinor air traffic management system is known for being particularly efficient in managing air traffic over remote regions, such as the Arctic areas. They use a combination of modern radar systems, satellite navigation, and innovative technology to ensure safety and efficiency in these challenging regions.
Why these systems might be considered better:
Automation and Technology Integration: Some countries like Germany, Singapore, and Australia have been early adopters of advanced air traffic management technologies like satellite-based systems (ADS-B) and performance-based navigation, which can provide better route optimization and increase safety.
Efficiency in High-Density Airspace: Nations with congested airspace, like Switzerland and the UK, have systems that are highly optimized for managing traffic in complex, high-density environments, reducing delays and preventing bottlenecks.
Focus on Safety and Collaboration: Countries that have small or isolated airspaces often have a strong emphasis on safety and collaboration with neighboring countries, ensuring that ATC services remain effective even in remote areas.
While the US system has its own strengths (such as handling the largest volume of air traffic in the world), these countries provide examples of how smaller, highly specialized systems can achieve incredible efficiency, technological integration, and safety.

FWIW ...
 
Bob Noel said:
Given the amount of GA traffic in the NAS, it's difficult to compare the US ATC system to the systems of other (unnamed) countries.

And there are a lot of reasons why modernization efforts have been less successful than desired. Some of the reasons I can't post (sorry, but privileged info can't be posted and/or the reasons would get into the political environment)
Click to expand...
I spent 4 years as a human factors consultant on Sector Suite. Got to hang out at enroute building and jump seat on occasions. From my lowly POV the reasons were entirely political with a healthy dose of financial.
 
Randomskylane said:
Isn’t some parts of USA ground based and whatever they use in Canada satellite based?

Could have sworn i saw that on poa
Click to expand...
In the Continental US we have a two tiered system. The old system is an air-to-air 1090ES (Extended Squitter) which is referred to ADSB, the other newer one which is only existing in the Continental US is the UAT 978MHz (Universal Access Transceiver), the latter uses land based Towers to transmit the TIS-B traffic if you're within a "puck" which is generated by either you or someone of using ADSB-out equipment. Now the issue with the 978 system is that it has an inherent delay of a second or two, it's aggregating other info as well as Weather/METARs etc. So therefore you might get a hit on your adsb-in which is received and is yet "older" than the latest hit you might have received directly via the 1090ES. But our system is pretty good. Overseas currently they do NOT have the 978 system, but only 1090 air-to-air. That is why you cannot fly into Canada with only a 978 adsb-out (e.g. UAvionics)
 
in Mexico, you lose radar coverage below FL200 even near cities, so I’d say Mexico isn’t the competition…. ;)
 
I will freely admit that I'm no expert, but I can usually recognize people who are utterly clueless and have NO IDEA what the hell they're talking about (and I try hard not to be one of those people).

I understand how someone new would look at the existing system and think it's a great idea to just go out and replace it all. Especially so after seeing the magic of things like ADS-B... which of course relies heavily on the existing system. I think they're going to find that if it were simple or cheap to just rip out the existing systems and replace them with something newer and better, it would probably have been done already. Granted there is without doubt a lot of politics and turf protection going on that has impeded progress, but replacing ATC systems would have to be done without disrupting anything, and with guarantees that the new system would be better than what is already there, and at least as safe. ATC is no place to "move fast fix it later if you break things". No CI/CD debug-on-the-fly approach here; a minor bug can kill a lot of people.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
 
1740081605117.png
Not only is it more advanced, its been around since 1967!
 
The only other traffic system I can think of, other than the cell-phone-data based systems in Australia by OzRunways and AvPlan, is Flarm.

www.flarm.com

The practical collision warning system.

FLARM is the collision warning system for general aviation and drones. It provides information about nearby air traffic and warns of possible collisions.
www.flarm.com www.flarm.com

It's primarily used by light GA, especially gliders and the like who operate in very tight quarters under thermals or in the alps. If a jet were flying into places like Geneva on a regular basis I can see an argument that they might carry a receiver. I haven't used it myself so can't say whether it's "better" - but I don't get the impression that it's much different to ADS-B in performance, just more readily accessible and cheaper.
 
I do use the Flarm system in my sailplane. The main advantage of is that computes the trajectories of the other Flarm equipped aircraft (usually other gliders) and won't provide an alert unless the trajectories are merging. So in a well behaved gaggle of sailplanes some of which can have 5 sailplane essentially doing Steep turns in slow flight in formation with each other it won't be blaring out alerts unless one of the aircraft is actually converging on your projected flight path.

The downside is it is relatively short range. Under Ideal conditions you might see another aircraft with Flarm out to 10 miles, similar to how you typically see ADS-B traffic, but more frequently it is closer to 2 to 3 miles.. My version of Flarm will actually display ADS-B traffic also and do some trajectory alerts with ADS-B traffic as well, but I don't think the alerts are as refined as they are with another Flarm equipped aircraft. ADS-B does have a much longer range though. Realistically as a collision avoidance device with a 2-3 mile visibility of aircraft around me with alerts of conflicting aircraft is really all I need.

There are quite a few variations of how this information is displayed here are a few...

1740100760388.png
I have an older version, this is what mine looks like when not in an alert and just showing traffic around me.


1740100991092.png this is what Alert screen looks like... 1740101124557.png

Brian
 
Daleandee said:
Here's the AI answer. Long but interesting:

The United States has one of the largest and most sophisticated air traffic control (ATC) systems in the world, but there are a few countries that are known for having particularly strong or innovative systems, which might outperform the US in certain aspects:

1. Germany
Efficient and Highly Automated: Germany is home to DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung, which is known for having a highly efficient and modern air traffic control system. The German system is highly automated, and they have been pioneers in integrating new technologies to manage traffic flow efficiently.
Low Accident Rate: Germany's ATC system has been noted for its exceptionally low accident rate, partly due to the precision in controlling air traffic in Europe, especially in congested airspace.
2. Switzerland
Precision and Punctuality: Swiss ATC, managed by Skyguide, has a reputation for being extremely punctual and precise, two qualities that are important in ensuring the safety and efficiency of air traffic. Switzerland’s relatively small airspace means the controllers can provide more personalized service and maintain close coordination.
Collaboration with Neighboring Countries: Switzerland also works in close coordination with neighboring countries' air traffic control systems, making cross-border operations highly efficient.
3. Singapore
Advanced Technology: Singapore’s Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) is one of the most technologically advanced ATC systems globally. They have embraced automation and satellite-based navigation (like ADS-B) to manage dense air traffic with impressive precision and minimal delays.
Air Traffic Management in a Global Hub: Singapore is a global aviation hub, and its ATC system handles a high volume of international flights efficiently, making it a model of modern air traffic management.
4. Australia
High-Tech Solutions: The Airservices Australia is responsible for ATC services in the country and is one of the leaders in adopting new technologies like satellite-based navigation (PBN) and automation to manage air traffic in their vast, sparsely populated airspace.
Focus on Safety: Australia is also known for its emphasis on air traffic safety, with a strong regulatory framework that integrates the latest safety technologies and practices.
5. United Kingdom
NATS (National Air Traffic Services): The UK has a highly efficient ATC system managed by NATS, known for managing complex airspace over one of the busiest skies in Europe. The UK’s system is known for its focus on reducing delays and handling congested airspace effectively.
Innovations in Flow Management: NATS has been a leader in introducing innovative solutions to improve air traffic flow, such as the use of performance-based navigation (PBN) and advanced air traffic flow management tools.
6. Norway
Efficient in Remote Areas: Norway’s Avinor air traffic management system is known for being particularly efficient in managing air traffic over remote regions, such as the Arctic areas. They use a combination of modern radar systems, satellite navigation, and innovative technology to ensure safety and efficiency in these challenging regions.
Why these systems might be considered better:
Automation and Technology Integration: Some countries like Germany, Singapore, and Australia have been early adopters of advanced air traffic management technologies like satellite-based systems (ADS-B) and performance-based navigation, which can provide better route optimization and increase safety.
Efficiency in High-Density Airspace: Nations with congested airspace, like Switzerland and the UK, have systems that are highly optimized for managing traffic in complex, high-density environments, reducing delays and preventing bottlenecks.
Focus on Safety and Collaboration: Countries that have small or isolated airspaces often have a strong emphasis on safety and collaboration with neighboring countries, ensuring that ATC services remain effective even in remote areas.
While the US system has its own strengths (such as handling the largest volume of air traffic in the world), these countries provide examples of how smaller, highly specialized systems can achieve00000000000
Click to expand...







Daleandee said:
incredible efficiency, technological integration, and safety.

FWIW ...
Click to expand...
To point out the obvious, "automated", "advanced tech", and "hi tech" are just meaningless buzz words.

"It's better because it's new." No, being faster, more efficient, more accurate, those are attributes. But those systems handle less volume.

"Smaller means faster, and more efficient." Wow! What a revelation.

Computers (AI) may kill all of us. But they won't replace us.
 
JackL-3J said:
To point out the obvious, "automated", "advanced tech", and "hi tech" are just meaningless buzz words.

"It's better because it's new." No, being faster, more efficient, more accurate, those are attributes. But those systems handle less volume.

"Smaller means faster, and more efficient." Wow! What a revelation.

Computers (AI) may kill all of us. But they won't replace us.
Click to expand...

You are attributing to me things that are not mine. Not sure what you're trying to say, and suspect you don't either ... :dunno:
 
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Daleandee said:
You are attributing things said by me that are not mine. Not sure what you're trying to say, and suspect you don't either ...
Click to expand...
"Here's the AI answer" are the first words of the quote. I don't think you are "AI". And my comment at the end was about AI. (Again not you.)
 
Katamarino said:
can't say whether it's "better" - but I don't get the impression that it's much different to ADS-B in performance, just more readily accessible and cheaper.
Click to expand...
that spells 'better' to me, but English is technically my second language. :biggrin:
 
What is missing in the discussion is quantity of traffic. Even removing spam cans, the US volume of traffic outdistances any other country or even the EU as a whole by double, many places an order of magnitude. What works for Oz (which severely restricts spam cans) with a relatively low volume of traffic doesn’t work here.

This is similar to the old security argument of ElAl and Israel…the US has 2 orders of magnitude of traffic as Israel, probably more. Plus almost all international traffic goes thru TelAviv, where the US has more 27 orders is it 37? Class B.
 
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