Do I have to get a bachelor's?

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notonauto11/10/24

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NotOnAuto
Im in highschool and am looking to become an airline pilot, my local community college has a flight school(part 141) that I was planning on going to. My general plan was to go there get my ppl, cpl, ifr, cfi and since its a restricted atp school, build the rest of my 1250 hours somehow(I need suggestions). But I was curious since I would only end up with an associate's degree should I transfer to a four year college? Would that impact my chances of getting hired? I'm new to how it all works and I need some advice on just about everything.
 
The reality is, companies want it because it “checks the box” and shows you’re responsible enough to do something that takes commitment.

If you’re going to be a pilot, nobody will care what your degree is in, but they may want you to have one. Of course, if you want to have a “backup career” in case something happens, it’s also helpful for that. In that case, you may want to put some thought into making it a marketable skill.
 
Disclaimer: not a commercial pilot.

Get the degree.
It demonstrates a level of responsibility + commitment that a HS diploma does not. Whether that association is deserved or not is another question entirely.
And while people in aviation might not care what your degree is in, for the sake of a backup career (and b/c degrees usually cost about the same in terms of credit hours), you're better off getting one that's respectable. Best to get your money's worth and challenge yourself IMHO.
 
notonauto11/10/24 said:
…, my local community college … since its a restricted atp school….
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You are misunderstanding something or you are being lied to.

To qualify for an R-ATP

(b) A person may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with a multiengine airplane type rating with a minimum of 1,000 hours of total time as a pilot if the person:

(1) Holds a Bachelor's degree with an aviation major from an institution of higher education, as defined in § 61.1, that has been issued a letter of authorization by the Administrator under § 61.169;

(2) Completes 60 semester credit hours of aviation and aviation-related coursework that has been recognized by the Administrator as coursework designed to improve and enhance the knowledge and skills of a person seeking a career as a professional pilot;
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dans2992 said:
The reality is, companies want it because it “checks the box” and shows you’re responsible enough to do something that takes commitment.

If you’re going to be a pilot, nobody will care what your degree is in, but they may want you to have one. Of course, if you want to have a “backup career” in case something happens, it’s also helpful for that. In that case, you may want to put some thought into making it a marketable skill.
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100%.

I am in a field where I thought it wise to get a related degree. 22 years in, and I do not regret getting the degree, but I do wish I’d gotten it in something more generic like business, etc. It’s value is limited to showing that I earned a degree in general, whereas something more widely applicable would have done the same, plus provided a base for a different career and possibly future degrees as needed.

One thing that I think gets overlooked is the experience of college outside of the classroom, particularly those of us who came from small towns with a fairly homogeneous demographic. I learned as much or more outside the classroom in college because I was able to interact with a wide variety of peers from the gamut of backgrounds, cultures, life experiences, viewpoints/ideals, and socioeconomic status. These experiences have translated directly into an ability to work with a much wider variety of people and perspectives, which has proven to be far more valuable in my life and career than the piece of paper that says I completed certain coursework.
 
Get your first class medical first. Get your ducks in a line. Study the medical blog here.
Talk to flight instructor about medicals
ALL before applying. Could be pitfalls.
 
TCABM said:
You are misunderstanding something or you are being lied to.

To qualify for an R-ATP



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Umm, you probably need to read further - as in subpart (c). There is an R-ATP that is 1250 hours with an associates degree (you also need the other components/ratings). But there is a 2 year 1250 or 4 year 1000 hour R-ATP, along with a military R-ATP.
 
Anthem said:
Umm, you probably need to read further - as in subpart (c). There is an R-ATP that is 1250 hours with an associates degree (you also need the other components/ratings). But there is a 2 year 1250 or 4 year 1000 hour R-ATP, along with a military R-ATP.
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I stand corrected and learned something new.
 
Get some real advice from a real school and people that are doing it, not a pilot mill
 
Well, now, if y’all’re lookin' to get in this ol' aviation game, reckon it depends

I know fellas who got hired on with the big legacy airlines, some of ‘em with nuthin' more than a two-year degree, and others who didn’t have a degree at all. Times’ve changed, lemme tell ya.

Back not too long ago, you needed a four-year just to even get ‘em to pick up the phone, but the joke was, it didn’t really matter what that degree was in, could’ve been underwater basket weaving for all they cared.

Now, if you're serious about this, I’d advise you to pick up a degree that’ll pay off even if you decide to step outta the cockpit. Something like nursing, computer science, somethin' that’ll give you a skillset that’s good for more than just flyin'. Heck, a lotta those degrees come with a license or certificate to boot.

Restricted ATP is just a marketing tool for overpriced schools, don’t pay it any attention.

When it comes to your medical, don’t go askin' just any ol' CFI. Most of ‘em don't know squat about the medical side of things, and truth be told, most ain't gonna lift a finger to learn. If you need advice, go straight to a senior AME and have a proper consult, don’t fill out a MEDEXPRESS form for the consult.

And let me tell ya, don’t think for a second that just ‘cause you’re healthy, you’re gonna breeze through the medical. A couple of old traffic tickets or somethin' like ADHD from childhood can give you all kinds of trouble if you just submit without your “honework” done

So good luck, partner, and always remember: the best time to get into aviation was yesterday. Get after it!

-airline pilot
 
Not a pro pilot but I did go to an A&P school...then an engineering school. Continue with your studies and get your Associates degree....transfer to a 4 year school and get a degree in something you're interested in. Any degree that is useful towards a career. Don't waste your time with a stupid degree....just to get the paper. The degree is a for your "backup" plan. Should something happen with your medical you'll need a backup career. As far as being a pro pilot....very few companies will care if you have a degree. They want flying experience.
 
Learn how to solve problems. The world is full of problems to be solved. If you can stomach it, my bias is to suggesting not to scrimp on math and make sure you at least get to algebra. Take some econ type classes and know how to work a computer beyond Tik Tok. But there is tremendous value in being able to read and write critically, also. I sometimes feel like my most important skill is figuring out why someone doesn't seem to be understanding the point I, or someone else in a meeting, is trying to make, and pivot the message or explanation to something that hits home.
 
Be ready for sticker shock on the costs for even an R-ATP. I just went thru the info session at our local community college that has an R-ATP program and the approximate costs for the flying side of the program will run between $99K and $115K, depending on your residency when you start the program. It will take you between 2 and 3 years, and you will be at the campus from 7 am to 5 pm approximately, 5 days a week for those years.
 
Craig said:
Be ready for sticker shock on the costs for even an R-ATP. I just went thru the info session at our local community college that has an R-ATP program and the approximate costs for the flying side of the program will run between $99K and $115K, depending on your residency when you start the program. It will take you between 2 and 3 years, and you will be at the campus from 7 am to 5 pm approximately, 5 days a week for those years.
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That’s worse than picking up a gambling habit or having a kid.

Young fella around the airport here I’ve been helping, under 50hrs from his CPL, think he’s got about 10-15k into it, also has a good chunk of turbine time, top that off he’d been working full time in the trades

Sooner have his work ethic and grit in the cockpit than a +100k college kid with the “college experience”
 
here's the deal from someone with 35 years experience with major airline and former pilot recruiter..... you don't need a pilot degree....waste of time at your age ....do this instead
1. take college credit classes in HS, start online private pilot ground school on line.....study to pass the written and take test....don't take test until u consistently get over 90% on practice test. use aids like Sheppard air to prep for written ..don't worry about fully understanding material. focus on knocking off test with high score which will make your oral easier. You will get knowledge once u start training. Find a good CFI and pay them under the table for ground school stuff instead of full rate at school ...all CFIs need $....even paying for dinner ground school works. repeat this for all ratings.

2. ask around for best and cheapest flight school...part 61 will b best and even if u decide later to go to bachelor degree program for the 1000 hr rATP, you can use part 61 private lic for full credit, but all else must b done in part 141at a college approved flight school and they will cost u way more money and time.
2. enroll local Community college with a pilot degree after HS, even online course. if may not need b faa approved for the 1250 hr rATP. ...this will allow u to get thru your ratings and to CFI quickest but u could have all your ratings within a year .....most colleges will give u 25-28 credits for your FAA certs anyway....which would take u a year in school if u were in faa approved college.
3.focus on flying and hammer thru your ratings if u can afford it.
4.continue degree online...for an AS degree u need 60 units. .u will b half way there with just your faa certificate credits. hit it hard once done with ratings and working as CFI...

5.assuming u are able to fund full time flying, by age 21 u should have the degree and depending on how much u flying as CFI, about 800-1000 hrs. Look for cfi gigs that may not pay the best but fly high time. Move if u need to.

with this plan u will need 1500 hrs to get rATP but u will still need to b min age 21 anyway. but compare that to a 4 year plan where you will b age 21-22 and have only about 250-300 hours and needs another 700 to get to 1000. you will save big money.

I know CFIs logging over 100 hrs a month at my home airport so you could meet the rATP at 1500 hrs before the 4 year program and save tens of thousands of dollars. when I got hired I needed an engineer degree or similar. but now No one cares about your degree or how u got it. Find a 2 year aviation degree online that gives u at least 26 units for upto COM multi engine cert, that doesn't require going to approved 141 school. find a good CFI at a school with cheap rentals in area with good flying weather so u can fly every day. be sure they have plenty of planes. look at flying clubs ...APAFLYERS club near me in Denver is pretty cheap and I know they got a guy thru from zero time to private check ride in less than 2 weeks for a fraction of cost elsewhere. I think 8 days was the record so far there.

other suggestions to keep cost low and get done quick .
1. when aircraft are not flying. sit in them and practice flows and procedures such as go around. This stuff should be muscle memory by the time you are introduced to each procedure with CFI and Hobbs meter rolling.

2. listen to ATC frequency at your local airports..and other busier airports ...there's apps as atc live
3. find a buddy to share cost on rental aircraft before starting IFR. ..if both private pilots u both can log it as PIC if either under the hood.....doing this for about 5 hours will allow to excel in ifr training and save paying entire rental and for CFI

4. Sit in back of airplane during training of others...this is huge!!

hope this helpful and best of luck.
 
Roller said:
That’s worse than picking up a gambling habit or having a kid.

Young fella around the airport here I’ve been helping, under 50hrs from his CPL, think he’s got about 10-15k into it, also has a good chunk of turbine time, top that off he’d been working full time in the trades

Sooner have his work ethic and grit in the cockpit than a +100k college kid with the “college experience”
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Roller: These students are essentially at the airport campus 8 hours a day, 5 days a week flying, studying or when they get their CFI's, teaching or planning lessons. The non aviation classwork takes about 1 full time semester to complete. Right now, there is about a 1 year wait list to even get started in the program, even if you have all your stuff ready.
 
Craig said:
Roller: These students are essentially at the airport campus 8 hours a day, 5 days a week flying, studying or when they get their CFI's, teaching or planning lessons. The non aviation classwork takes about 1 full time semester to complete. Right now, there is about a 1 year wait list to even get started in the program, even if you have all your stuff ready.
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And it take em’ 2-3yrs to start building time as a working pilot or CFI?

Seniority lost, money lost

Yall want to do the math, interest on that crazy price and 1-2 yrs less seniority later on, reckon that’s over half a mil in burned money, hope the kid brought marshmallows
 
Roller said:
And it take em’ 2-3yrs to start building time as a working pilot or CFI?

Seniority lost, money lost

Yall want to do the math, interest on that crazy price and 1-2 yrs less seniority later on, reckon that’s over half a mil in burned money, hope the kid brought marshmallows
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Typically they are thru their Instrument, Commercial, Multi and working on the CFI by the end of the first year.
 
Reread what AlphPIlotFlyer wrote. I am retired airline and the picture in my bio is what I flew last. MD11 for one of the two major cargo airlines….(PS - They get paid more than passenger carriers). Hourly rate is important but work rules are more important. I digress. I did over 35 years flying jets all over the world. I did it without a college degree but I did get my A&P from Spartan (no degree program back then) as I started flying. I agree with what most have said here…get a degree that will pay you something if flying doesn’t work out…medical etc. or you happen to hit a downturn. I was working for a Fortune 500 company as a pilot but wanted the airlines more (some of us aren’t cut out for corporate flying) and I begged, borrowed and had a wonderful wife that agreed to let me quit my job and buy a DC-9 type rating which gave me an interview only. This was at a time that the airlines were laying off and corporate wouldn’t touch me because of the type rating. I cleared land for several months to feed my three sons and then finally got hired to fly right seat on a DC9 at $900/month. I could have scabbed at Continental but never ever ever ever ever cross a picket line…never…seriously never! I hung in there and due to friends and my personality I was hired at another place and then finally got hired at UPS and stayed there for thirty years. I walked into one interview and the first thing they said was “You don’t have a degree?” We won’t hire without a degree in anything…knowing it was hopeless I replied “I thought you were hiring pilots and not college boys” and walked out. It all worked out for me…
My son flew for the airlines for a while but I had him go to a flight school in his last year of high school and he started college with everything up to his CFII and MEI while in college. He graduated with over 1000 hours while his cohorts had their degree and maybe 150 hours.

PS. Never cross a picket line.
 
It is likely that sometime during your aviation career there will be some sort of interruption. Might be a medical issue, might be an overall industry downturn, might be a pandemic, might be a corporate merger or acquisition, etc., but there will be something, as surely as the sun rising in the east. Depending on when that occurs, who you're working for, and your seniority, you may well find yourself suddenly unemployed.

If you're making decent money as a pilot when that something occurs, you will need a new job that also pays decently. When you are obligated on a mortgage and a car loan and have a family to feed, burning french fries at the Golden Arches or working as a greeter at Wally World ain't gonna cut it.

Get a bachelor's in business or a STEM subject and you'll be able to keep the lights on and little Johnny supplied with diapers and formula.
 
Half Fast said:
It is likely that sometime during your aviation career there will be some sort of interruption. Might be a medical issue, might be an overall industry downturn, might be a pandemic, might be a corporate merger or acquisition, etc., but there will be something, as surely as the sun rising in the east. Depending on when that occurs, who you're working for, and your seniority, you may well find yourself suddenly unemployed.

If you're making decent money as a pilot when that something occurs, you will need a new job that also pays decently. When you are obligated on a mortgage and a car loan and have a family to feed, burning french fries at the Golden Arches or working as a greeter at Wally World ain't gonna cut it.

Get a bachelor's in business or a STEM subject and you'll be able to keep the lights on and little Johnny supplied with diapers and formula.
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The caveat that I’d add is that some STEM disciplines will require some recency in the industry to be employable if you need to fallback on it. I’ve got a friend whose engineering background basically was no good when he was considering going back to it ten years later.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The caveat that I’d add is that some STEM disciplines will require some recency in the industry to be employable if you need to fallback on it. I’ve got a friend whose engineering background basically was no good when he was considering going back to it ten years later.
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True, depending on the field. In engineering, it might be necessary to take a class or two first to get back up to speed. Also depends on how needy the hiring business is.
 
Reckon it’s common knowledge, but seeing that ain’t as common these days

Your first and probably second flying job ain’t going to be for the airlines

Lots of online and hybrid type degrees out there too

Be quick to get the hours, be slow to take on debt and low ROI “investments”

Don’t have a kid until you are established in your career and have 2500hrs

Don’t get married, near zero reason for a American man in 2025 to get married, lots of pit falls, yes sir

Buy stuff you can afford cash

Take care of your body, reckon a man can’t be much of a man if he can’t see his manhood anymore lol, don’t need no gym membership runin’ pushups sit-ups don’t cost nothing and will reward you more than most stocks

Planes ain’t like cars, model year and nice paint ain’t worth more money when you’re building that logbook, especially if it’s coming out of your billfold
 
Half Fast said:
True, depending on the field. In engineering, it might be necessary to take a class or two first to get back up to speed. Also depends on how needy the hiring business is.
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In my experience, which includes being an engineering hiring manager, if you don't use your engineering degree right out of school but instead go do something else for a few years you really never were up to speed to begin with. After 10 years (from @MauleSkinner's example) you'll be going from what was presumably a decent pay level to the bottom of the engineering scale with a distinct disadvantage compared to those fresh out of school or with other relevant experience unless you find the rare opportunity that requires an ATP with an engineering degree. My area of expertise is constantly changing, and would require more than 1-2 classes after 10 years away to become acquainted with the state of the art, never mind proficient, in the field unless you are an absolute superstar. During the heavy furlough periods we would occasionally use furloughed pilots as meat servos for sim tests but not in much of an engineering capacity and they were basically 'stashes' that would quickly depart when the first flying opportunity arose.

Nauga,
and his voice-operated autopilot
 
nauga said:
In my experience, which includes being an engineering hiring manager, if you don't use your engineering degree right out of school but instead go do something else for a few years you really never were up to speed to begin with. After 10 years (from @MauleSkinner's example) you'll be going from what was presumably a decent pay level to the bottom of the engineering scale with a distinct disadvantage compared to those fresh out of school.....
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I was also an engineering hiring manager during my 36 years at Lockheed. What you say is true, but there are nuances. Certainly someone without experience would not be hired into a senior slot at a premier aerospace company. OTOH,...

We sometimes had entry level engineering positions that could be appropriate for such an individual. He would be at a competitive disadvantage, but there could be mitigations. Someone who came to me in such a situation who had recently taken a course or two in a specialty we needed, like firmware design or antenna characterization or the like, might well be considered and would be given an in-depth technical interview. Maturity and some work experience, even though in an unrelated field, could tip the scale in his favor.

And there are other fields, as well. For example, A EE who graduated 10 years prior might be able to find work doing electrical design in construction work, especially if he takes a couple of classes to become familiar with the NEC.

ANY of these are better than the situation a person without the degree will be in. The overall point relative to this discussion is that a person with a solid bachelor's degree will have options and opportunities that the non-degreed person won't.
 
Yes.

Get a degree that will help your aviation career. Professional communication skills are immensely important. The hardest part of this job is communication and leadership. There are also many opportunities available outside of the cockpit in training, management, fleet specific ops etc that having a degree would be very beneficial.

Something like business management…

I don’t have a degree. I am at a major and have held management and training roles in my career. While it is possible to make it without the degree, it is much harder. I made the decision early in my career with the intention of finishing later. Life got in the way. If you can do it now, you should.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Yes.

Get a degree that will help your aviation career. Professional communication skills are immensely important. The hardest part of this job is communication and leadership. There are also many opportunities available outside of the cockpit in training, management, fleet specific ops etc that having a degree would be very beneficial.

Something like business management…

I don’t have a degree. I am at a major and have held management and training roles in my career. While it is possible to make it without the degree, it is much harder. I made the decision early in my career with the intention of finishing later. Life got in the way. If you can do it now, you should.
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Leadership and communications ain’t something a college professor and his latte are going to teach you lol

Go get a job in sales, go play team sports, you’ll get that to a much higher degree
 
Roller said:
Leadership and communications ain’t something a college professor and his latte are going to teach you lol

Go get a job in sales, go play team sports, you’ll get that to a much higher degree
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Tell me you’ve never had to do any technical writing without telling me.

My experience of writing umpteen reports and presentations, journal articles, a bachelors thesis, a masters thesis, and a PhD dissertation has vastly improved my communication skills. My advisor (who I worked with from sophomore year through my PhD) honed my communication skills immensely and showed me its vast importance in the technical world. It is now something I emphasize greatly with my direct reports.

An individual with good technical writing skills can communicate much more precisely and effectively than any sales person I’ve ever met.
 
There seems to be two different groups, either go to college and get a bachelors or don't go, and go to flight school and build hours as quickly and cheaply as possible. I'd definitely like to go to college, and probably somewhere along the way get a bachelor's online(currently I am looking towards probably business management). Is an associate's degree considered that much worse than a bachelor's? If I were to apply to an airline would they reject me for only having an associates? Academics wise I'm honors/Ap in everything available to me, and plan to continue that. Another question I have that I'd like to clear up, taking written tests/ground school, am I able to go an just take written tests? I was under the impression that I had to go to a ground school, take their classes then have the test administered by them; would I just be able to self study/study using online material for free? I live in eastern illinois if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations that would be pertinent to my location. I am very thankful for all answers
 
AKiss20 said:
Tell me you’ve never had to do any technical writing without telling me.

My experience of writing umpteen reports and presentations, journal articles, a bachelors thesis, a masters thesis, and a PhD dissertation has vastly improved my communication skills. My advisor (who I worked with from sophomore year through my PhD) honed my communication skills immensely and showed me its vast importance in the technical world. It is now something I emphasize greatly with my direct reports.

An individual with good technical writing skills can communicate much more precisely and effectively than any sales person I’ve ever met.
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Not just writing. Being able to stand up and make a coherent, interesting presentation is also important. Customer meetings, design reviews, flight readiness reviews, failure review boards, etc., all demand excellent verbal communication skills.
 
notonauto11/10/24 said:
would I just be able to self study/study using online material for free?
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Yes. There are online sample tests you can take. I did self-study, and then when I showed my instructor a string of sample tests that all had high scores he signed for me to take the formal written exam.

Self-study is perfectly acceptable.
 
Being able to clearly demonstrate no technical understanding of a subject domain doesn't provide much value.

Being a SME isn't much help if the expertise can't be communicated.

Teamwork can overcome the "shortcomings".
 
AKiss20 said:
Tell me you’ve never had to do any technical writing without telling me.

My experience of writing umpteen reports and presentations, journal articles, a bachelors thesis, a masters thesis, and a PhD dissertation has vastly improved my communication skills. My advisor (who I worked with from sophomore year through my PhD) honed my communication skills immensely and showed me its vast importance in the technical world. It is now something I emphasize greatly with my direct reports.

An individual with good technical writing skills can communicate much more precisely and effectively than any sales person I’ve ever met.
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I don’t work in tech or any soft shoe profession

Leadership when skin is on the line, yes sir

Tons of mentoring the guy in the right seat to getting them to the left, oh yeah

Never met a college professor who I’d trust to manage the teenager who runs the zero turn on my lawn

Over the last few decades college has made itself into a joke for 80% of it
 
Half Fast said:
Yes. There are online sample tests you can take. I did self-study, and then when I showed my instructor a string of sample tests that all had high scores he signed for me to take the formal written exam.

Self-study is perfectly acceptable.
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If you're at a 141 school, I think you have to complete the schools own ground school class.
 
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