Can I earn my CFI with Basic Med and then teach my kids to fly?

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'm a 625-hour pilot with a commercial pilot's license and am instrument-rated. I fly under Basic Med and will never go back up to a second or third-class medical.

The question has two parts:
1) Can I earn my CFI while operating under Basic Med?
2) Can I exercise the privileges of CFI to teach my children to fly while operating under Basic Med?

I think the answer to number 1 is yes. I'm not so sure about number 2.

 

[AvNavCom]

1. Yes
2. Yes

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

1. Yes
2. Yes

Looks like I need to get hot.

 

[mandm]

Double yes

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Looks like I didn't follow my own advice on this one. I should have searched first, then only posted if I couldn't figure it out. I'll leave this up for a few more hours, but then I'll delete the thread. There are several posts that clearly answer this already.

 

[mandm]

Looks like I didn't follow my own advice on this one. I should have searched first, then only posted if I couldn't figure it out. I'll leave this up for a few more hours, but then I'll delete the thread. There are several posts that clearly answer this already.

It stimulates conversation and a possible tangent. Leave it up.

 

[crash7]

Bonanza. Oh, wait…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Racerx]

Yes. With the caveat that sometimes learning things from family doesn't always work well.

 

[robin ardoin]

Yes. With the caveat that sometimes learning things from family doesn't always work well.

Yup, lik I lernt frum my sister that my daddy fooled around so much, I dun durnt know who my mommy is!

 

[Clip4]

You are a commercial pilot and don’t know this?

 

[Roller]

You are a commercial pilot and don’t know this?

Why would you expect a non CFI CPL to already know the CFI rules?

 

[RussR]

You are a commercial pilot and don’t know this?

The privileges and limitations of a CFI are not part of any Commercial Pilot curriculum, nor are they a reasonable expectation for a Commercial Pilot to know.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

It stimulates conversation and a possible tangent. Leave it up.

Indeed it did, good call.

 

[David Loftus]

1. Yes
2. Yes

Is this correct? You need a 2nd class medical to get a commercial, and you need a commercial to get a CFI. Can you still exercise the privileges of a commercial certificate under Basicmed? Or is your commercial certificate still valid under Basicmed and counts as a CFI prerequisite but you can't fly for hire?

 

[frfly172]

But of course you already possess the ratings needed for a CFI ,teaching family can be a hard endeavor good luck.

 

[AvNavCom]

Is this correct? You need a 2nd class medical to get a commercial, and you need a commercial to get a CFI. Can you still exercise the privileges of a commercial certificate under Basicmed? Or is your commercial certificate still valid under Basicmed and counts as a CFI prerequisite but you can't fly for hire?

You need a 2nd class to exercise the privileges of a commercial certificate, not to earn one. There's no requirement that you hold a 2nd class medical when you take your checkride. Flight instructors are deemed to be exercising instructional privileges, rather than commercial pilot privileges, while acting as a CFI. Under the normal circumstances of teaching, Basic Med is sufficient (some scenarios would indeed require a higher medical certificate if the aircraft, flight, or situation did not meet Basic Med guidelines). That's my understanding of the regulations.

Edit to add a factual basis to what I wrote:

"Who can Fly under BasicMed?

Pilots exercising Private pilot privileges as Pilot in Command (PIC) or as a required flightcrew member (such as a safety pilot)
Flight Instructors
Pilot Examiners"

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med

 

[Kritchlow]

You are a commercial pilot and don’t know this?

Heck… I’ve been flying professionally (between corporate and airline) for 30 years, and I have no clue about Sport Pilot, basic med, etc…

Further more I have no real desire to learn.

Thank God for those that do…

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

This thread sort of blew up while I was away at the airport!
I got my commercial 25 years ago back when i could pass a second class medical. It's basic med for me now.
I kept reading up on the CFI/medical thing today & found the documentation about the FAA's change in attitude. I was surprised to see them classify the CFI time as instruction for pay instead of flying for pay.

I've taught a few hundred people how to operate nuclear reactors. I think I can manage CFIing for family members. I was working with my son on take offs, landings, and emergency landings over Christmas. He asked "how are you not an instructor"! I don't fly for a living and had kind of given up on it. I fly to get from A to B to avoid driving and because i like it. I assumed that the lack of a second class medical shut the door for being a part time CFI.
Glad to see I'm wrong.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You need a 2nd class medical to get a commercial

Nope.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I was surprised to see them classify the CFI time as instruction for pay instead of flying for pay.

Wow, your knowkedge base must be really old. I got my CFI in 1999 and it was already in place and, as I recall, well-documented.

Anyway, as you now know, you can do what you are asking. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Wow, your knowkedge base must be really old. I got my CFI in 1999 and it was already in place and, as I recall, well-documented.

Anyway, as you now know, you can do what you are asking. Good luck and have fun.

My commercial instruction & “I’m going to be a pilot” part of my life was 1991-1993. The rule change came out in 1995.
I was in the Nuclear Navy from 1993 to 2001 so free time was something I didn’t have. In 1998-1999 I finally wrapped up my IFR & Commercial cert because they were degree requirements. I wasn’t looking at anything other than what it took to meet the requirements. Then I put my logbook up for the next 10 years. I didn’t have the time or money to fly. If I did have the time & money, at that time a second class medical wasn’t an issue so I’m not surprised I didn’t notice that you could instruct with a third class or later with Basic Med.
So yes, my knowledge was old.

FAA Policy Reversal on CFI! - Aviation Ideas and Discussion!

SAFE has historically worked closely with the FAA on promoting safety and improving flight training (e.g. developing the new ACS). With all this close collaboration as CFIs, DPEs and FAAST team Lead Reps you start to think you know what is going on, how the program runs. The historic FAA policy...

safeblog.org

 

[midlifeflyer]

My commercial instruction & “I’m going to be a pilot” part of my life was 1991-1993. The rule change came out in 1995.
I was in the Nuclear Navy from 1993 to 2001 so free time was something I didn’t have. In 1998-1999 I finally wrapped up my IFR & Commercial cert because they were degree requirements. I wasn’t looking at anything other than what it took to meet the requirements. Then I put my logbook up for the next 10 years. I didn’t have the time or money to fly. If I did have the time & money, at that time a second class medical wasn’t an issue so I’m not surprised I didn’t notice that you could instruct with a third class or later with Basic Med.
So yes, my knowledge was old.

FAA Policy Reversal on CFI! - Aviation Ideas and Discussion!

SAFE has historically worked closely with the FAA on promoting safety and improving flight training (e.g. developing the new ACS). With all this close collaboration as CFIs, DPEs and FAAST team Lead Reps you start to think you know what is going on, how the program runs. The historic FAA policy...

safeblog.org

Thanks. You forced me to look a little further and it seems there was some disagreement about this within the FAA. I have documents indicating only a third class required for CFIs back in 1991, but others saying a second class is required.

By 1995, the Chief Counsel agreed with the "third class" viewpoint. The main interpretation was the September 18, 1995 Fretwell letter. The change to the FAR itself came about in the big Part 61 and 141 revision/rewrite that took place in 1997.

Interesting sequel: Fretwell was officially rescinded because of the rule change covering it. The funny (although not surprising part) is that it wasn't rescinded until 2023! Both Fretwell and the rescission memo are available via the FAA's DRS website.

 

[Brad Z]

Thanks. You forced me to look a little further and it seems there was some disagreement about this within the FAA. I have documents indicating only a third class required for CFIs back in 1991, but others saying a second class is required.

By 1995, the Chief Counsel agreed with the "third class" viewpoint. The main interpretation was the September 18, 1995 Fretwell letter. The change to the FAR itself came about in the big Part 61 and 141 revision/rewrite that took place in 1997.

Interesting sequel: Fretwell was officially rescinded because of the rule change covering it. The funny (although not surprising part) is that it wasn't rescinded until 2023! Both Fretwell and the rescission memo are available via the FAA's DRS website.

Fretwell was pulled because the widely publicized 2020 Warbird Adventures enforcement case invalidated the construct in Fretwell that a flight instructor is not being compensated to pilot an aircraft. Warbirds was the case that started the whole LODA issue. The October 2024 Public Aircraft Logging rule fixed the LODA issue and clarified the flight instructor compensation issue. Accordingly, Fretwell was pulled.

The November 2022 Balloon Medical rule clarifies why an instructor does not require a second class medical.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I had set a goal of at least 10 hours a month this year. I’m going to need to relearn the commercial maneuvers. That was 25 years ago. Looks like it’s time to slip into the right seat and work on them.
I need to get the FOI and FIA exams scheduled. Ideally I get all of this done by May.
I also need to look at aircraft requirements. I feel like I read that the commercial check ride no longer had to be in a complex or TAA. You just had to have time in one or the other. I’ll have to see if that holds true for CFI also.
Edit: it looks like that changed in 2018 and I can do the CFI check ride in my Tampico.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The October 2024 Public Aircraft Logging rule fixed the LODA issue and clarified the flight instructor compensation issue.

You mean the words of 61.23 since July 1997 don't cover the lack of need for a 2nd class medical?

 

[Roller]

I had set a goal of at least 10 hours a month this year. I’m going to need to relearn the commercial maneuvers. That was 25 years ago. Looks like it’s time to slip into the right seat and work on them.
I need to get the FOI and FIA exams scheduled. Ideally I get all of this done by May.
I also need to look at aircraft requirements. I feel like I read that the commercial check ride no longer had to be in a complex or TAA. You just had to have time in one or the other. I’ll have to see if that holds true for CFI also.
Edit: it looks like that changed in 2018 and I can do the CFI check ride in my Tampico.

Start tutoring people

The majority of that checkride happens on the ground, teaching is the best teacher for teaching

You will find people ask questions you didn’t think of, or won’t understand something and you will have to rephrase in a way it flicks their switch on, this is something that can be learned from just the books alone

 

[Brad Z]

You mean the words of 61.23 since July 1997 don't cover the lack of need for a 2nd class medical?

Same outcome, different reasoning. In 1997 they used the Fretwell logic that an instructor doesn’t need a 2nd class because they’re being compensated to team, not fly, and accordingly, only exercising private pilot privileges. In 2021, the FAA walked back that rationale, instead acknowledging that flight instruction is commercial but that the medical qualifications for instructors differ from other commercial operators. From the 2021 Balloon medical preamble:

While the FAA considers flight training to be a commercial operation, it has—for purposes of medical certification—distinguished instructors providing flight training from pilots engaged in other commercial operations involving the carriage of passengers or property for compensation or hire. For example, under current regulations, conducting flight training while serving as PIC in either a glider or balloon does not require any medical certification. See §§ 61.3(c)(2) and 61.23(b).

As you can see, the FAA (lawyers) no longer argue that instructors are paid to teach, not to fly. Conversely, back in Fretwell, the FAA argued that it was not a commercial operation and consequently a 3rd class medical was sufficient.

From Fretwell:

A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising only the privileges of a private pilot. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. Therefore, since a certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising the privileges of a private pilot, he or she only needs to hold a third class medical certificate.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Start tutoring people

The majority of that checkride happens on the ground, teaching is the best teacher for teaching

You will find people ask questions you didn’t think of, or won’t understand something and you will have to rephrase in a way it flicks their switch on, this is something that can be learned from just the books alone

Agreed, but I need to have the basics down first.

Ryanb's thread is good guidance. The written exams are the first thing I need to take care of, but they can be done in parallel with getting my flight up to the right seat at the CFI level. I remember the names of the maneuvers I did for the commercial check ride 25 years ago. Can I teach them? Not until I remember how to do them. I've got to remember how to crawl first.

From that point, I can work on the teaching part. Oh, and I am currently "teaching" my son to prep him for the private pilot written. I have also spent the last 30 years teaching everything from nuclear reactor theory and operation to instrumentation and control maintenance, the use of Computerized Maintenance Management Systems for work management/asset, reliability-centered maintenance, and project management.

I'm actually less worried about the teaching on the ground part. I know how to teach, but I have to learn the material first. I don't know the material well enough to teach it. Heck, just that fact that I didn't know that a person with Basic Med could earn and exercise the privileges of a CFI clearly points that out.

Thread 'RyanB’s Initial CFI ‘How To’ Guide - Sticky'

Nov 9, 2024

Having recently completed the Flight Instructor Airplane Initial check ride, I thought it would be helpful to provide some insight on navigating what is arguably the least straight forward rating with regards on how to prepare and navigate from A to Z.

The CFI certificate is a teaching certificate moreso than a flying certificate although both are involved. Your instructor needs to teach you to teach. You need to learn and love the FOI. And you need to be organized. You’re going to practice teaching at the whiteboard and may even want to involve technology.

The ACS for this is written...

• RyanB
• Replies: 20
• Forum: Pilot Training

• 
• 

 

[midlifeflyer]

As you can see, the FAA (lawyers) no longer argue that instructors are paid to teach, not to fly.

As you said, same net effect whether one wants to look at the change in 1997 or the change 26 years later. Actually same gross effect too since the 1997 change says

Proposed paragraph (b)(3)(iii) clarified the existing requirement that a person who is exercising the privileges of his or her flight instructor certificate while serving as a pilot in command, or as a required crewmember, must hold a third-class medical certificate.​

No mention of "paid for teaching/"

 

[Clip4]

Heck… I’ve been flying professionally (between corporate and airline) for 30 years, and I have no clue about Sport Pilot, basic med, etc…

Further more I have no real desire to learn.

Thank God for those that do…

You don’t have to know it, but it would be nice if your knew how to actually open the FAR and look it up.