Aerobatic Lessons

[Rene]

Is there any reason for a Certificated pilot to have a certain number of hours before taking aerobatic lessons?

 

[Tools]

No

 

[RoscoeT]

The longer you wait the harder it will be.

 

[RyanB]

Pull back and you go up, pull back harder and you go down, that’s really the basics.

 

[hindsight2020]

No.

 

[Barrett50]

My second logbook entry reads: 'aileron rolls left; right' and so on.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Might consider getting your TW endorsement first. It's not necessary, but most aerobatic aircraft are taildraggers, so you'll be able to take off and land. Even better, combine TW and acro training.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

I know this suggestion is not the same as aerobatic training, but I use an LRI AOA meter and practice full deflection aileron rolls at low speed and high AOA. Once I get into a steep slow 45° turn I roll at maximum aileraton defection the opposite way to the opposite 45° turn. During this I am keeping rudder and AOA awareness to prevent stalls, slips or skids and getting comfortable with aggressive maneuvers at low speed. I learned alot about the low speed maneuvering capabilities of my old Cherokee, and found out how my Mooney doesn't share the same forgiving nature at extremely low speed the Cherokee had. It is also a lot of fun to do extremely tight circles over a tugboat at 750 AGL. (Or in this case, above the water. )

This is just a suggestion. It is not the same thing as aerobatic training but it is very good for your stick and rudder skills.

 

[bbchien]

William: Just a cautionary note: That doesn't sound like how to start. Low and slow at high alpha. No margin for error. Agree however, with what you say r.e Mooney (I have 2000 hrs in Fs and Js). Just remember which way it went over in the unintentional spin...inverted it's very hard dto recall which way you went over.

Rene, VT-1 will sure train you. It's an option.

 

[Rene]

Might consider getting your TW endorsement first. It's not necessary, but most aerobatic aircraft are taildraggers, so you'll be able to take off and land. Even better, combine TW and acro training.

What? Don't ALL airplanes have nice little wheels way back by the rudder? (I learned to taxi in a Champ, learned to fly in a Cub, and currently fly a Vag. But I do have one hour of nose-dragger time in an Erco.) Right now, I'm talking to a guy who owns a Clipped Wing Cub.

 

[Rene]

I know this suggestion is not the same as aerobatic training, but I use an LRI AOA meter and practice full deflection aileron rolls at low speed and high AOA. Once I get into a steep slow 45° turn I roll at maximum aileraton defection the opposite way to the opposite 45° turn. During this I am keeping rudder and AOA awareness to prevent stalls, slips or skids and getting comfortable with aggressive maneuvers at low speed. I learned alot about the low speed maneuvering capabilities of my old Cherokee, and found out how my Mooney doesn't share the same forgiving nature at extremely low speed the Cherokee had. It is also a lot of fun to do extremely tight circles over a tugboat at 750 AGL. (Or in this case, above the water. )

This is just a suggestion. It is not the same thing as aerobatic training but it is very good for your stick and rudder skills.

I saw the little Champ flying back and forth down the section line road near my house many, many times before I followed it back to the (grass) airfield and talked myself into a job cleaning it and its mates. I was taught how to properly remove them from the hangar, pre-flight 'em, prop 'em, and taxi 'em way before I got to fly one. I'm obviously biased. But learning that you have to fly a conventional gear airplane from the time you pull it from the hangar until you tie it down (where is the wind - be sure to secure the stick in the proper quadrant) is a necessary skill.

The Vag I'm flying right now is a sweetheart, she just requires situational awareness, attention, and coordination.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

William: Just a cautionary note: That doesn't sound like how to start. Low and slow at high alpha. No margin for error. Agree however, with what you say r.e Mooney (I have 2000 hrs in Fs and Js). Just remember which way it went over in the unintentional spin...inverted it's very hard dto recall which way you went over.

Rene, VT-1 will sure train you. It's an option.

My comments at the end are after about 12 hours of practice and getting used to the LRI and my airplane and my skill set. The point was that after I had done those things I was comfortable doing slow tight turns above an object at low altitude. I was never in any danger.

 

[TonyG]

What? Don't ALL airplanes have nice little wheels way back by the rudder? (I learned to taxi in a Champ, learned to fly in a Cub, and currently fly a Vag. But I do have one hour of nose-dragger time in an Erco.) Right now, I'm talking to a guy who owns a Clipped Wing Cub.

Awesome. My 2 cents for GA: a good introductory aerobatics airplane is soloable (really up to the owner there, if it's not you) will have a negative g fuel and oil system and otherwise be a sloppy airplane.

Why negative g? the whole coordinated rudder reversal thing - some pilots never work that out in technical terms. But in terms of actually flying, it can help you more quickly get to the point where you're just doing what it takes (essentially without thinking about it) to get the airplane to do what you want it to do.

Why a sloppy, but soloable airplane? My take is that we learn far, far more solo than we do with an instructor. A sloppy airplane gives immediate feedback - some won't be able to even get through a slow roll if you aren't flying it "mostly" right. High end airplanes will get through the manuever, and it'll be hard to sort good from bad.

The 7KCAB isn't a bad choice here, I'm sure there are others. I don't know if any clipped wing cubs have inverted fuel and oil (they certainly meet the sloppy criteria).

An aside/recommendation: with the instructor, get good (really good) training in recovering from all forms of departure. When you get to solo, spend the first several hours understanding how each manuever can lead to a departure, and what the airplane's response will be (make sure you're safely inside the operating limitations). Practice those departures and recoveries. Really decreases the odds of being surprised in the cockpit. (Wish I could take credit for this, but it came from my old man, a career USAF fighter pilot.)

Good luck - your path here is enviable!

--Tony

 

[Ed Haywood]

What? Don't ALL airplanes have nice little wheels way back by the rudder? (I learned to taxi in a Champ, learned to fly in a Cub, and currently fly a Vag. But I do have one hour of nose-dragger time in an Erco.) Right now, I'm talking to a guy who owns a Clipped Wing Cub.

Then you're already ahead of the game. Go get some acro.

 

[Pinecone]

William: Just a cautionary note: That doesn't sound like how to start. Low and slow at high alpha. No margin for error. Agree however, with what you say r.e Mooney (I have 2000 hrs in Fs and Js). Just remember which way it went over in the unintentional spin...inverted it's very hard dto recall which way you went over.

Rene, VT-1 will sure train you. It's an option.

AGREED.

You start with normal speed and do Dutch rolls, then extend the speed to both higher and lower speeds.

 

[Pinecone]

I started at about 70 hours. A couple of hours of tailwheel transition in a 7ECAA, then into an 8KCAB Super Decathlon for aerobatic work.

I agree that a good aerobatic trainer should not be too easy to fly aerobatics. You learn WHY you have to do things a certain way, as the airplane doesn't have the performance to muddle through.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Decathlon is an excellent primary acro trainer. Makes you work for it, but not too hard. Full inverted systems. Hard to get into trouble or overstress the aircraft. Slower roll rate is beneficial when learning.

 

[TonyG]

Decathlon is an excellent primary acro trainer. Makes you work for it, but not too hard. Full inverted systems. Hard to get into trouble or overstress the aircraft. Slower roll rate is beneficial when learning.

Agree. Shoulda had it on the list with the 7kcab. The benefits: constant speed prop (don't have as much distraction monitoring for overspeeds, etc.) and the symmetric airfoil / better handling. Still sloppy enough to teach the pilot ("makes you work for it"), not so sloppy as to be like "practicing bleeding". A bit more expensive.

 

[woywoyboy]

Decathlon is an excellent primary acro trainer. Makes you work for it, but not too hard. Full inverted systems. Hard to get into trouble or overstress the aircraft. Slower roll rate is beneficial when learning.

I learned basic aerobatics in a Cessna Aerobat with the Texas Taildragger conversion. That was a setup that made you work every inch and degree of the way… all that fixed-prop power management! Nimble's not the word. Moving up to a Super Decathlon felt like entering another world…