So first I would like to say I know pretty close to nothing about planes, so any help is appreciated. I inherited a Luscome, wrong spelling from my dad. It is in mint condition and I had it sold for 20,000. Unfortunately the bully of the airport thought we didn't know much an he offered 3,000. Needless to say he did not get the plane. But the log books were given to him. We don't know why they were not in the plane or hanger. Where all of his belongings were brought. I guess he thought he would get it. He is known for this kinda thing. I have been there several times and he just says he doesn't have them. I do know it is taking alot of money off the plane now. How can I fight this? Thank you
Log book theft?
- Thread starter B.ŵill
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Lawsuit or the threat of one. Lawyer.
Get a lawyer?
I don't know much about Luscombes but 20k sounds like it's a steal if the plane is airworthy. If it is, then it would have had an annual completed recently. The A&P who completed the annual is likely nearby. I would get a new logbook and ask that A&P to make a notation stating logs were lost and his most recent annual log entry.
Who gave him the logbooks and under what context?
Unfortunately to be complete he'll need to recreate all the records required per 91.417 and only the owner can provide some of them.
Sure to be complete, but at this point I would be looking for to be airworthy. Airworthy would only require documentation of last annual within the prescribed timeframe and any AD compliance, correct?
Yes and no. But before jumping down that rabbit hole I'd want to know the how and why that guy was given the logbooks. If he is simply refusing to return the logbooks, in some states a quick call to the cops will alievate that problem. We're missing the important part of the story.
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Ventucky Red
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Jon
Call the police and report a theft..... apparently he is being an ____wipe... reciprocate in kind...
The plane is a terrible place to keep log books. How do you know the logs were given to this gentleman? By whom?
Now if this gentleman took them, then it's time to call the cops. But given them implies a transfer of ownership. And unless he's using the logs as a form of extortion I don't think there's any recourse.
Now if this gentleman took them, then it's time to call the cops. But given them implies a transfer of ownership. And unless he's using the logs as a form of extortion I don't think there's any recourse.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Never ever give anyone logbooks to take away. Let them examine them in your presence only. Don’t fall for stories “I need to take them home to have time to go through them”. Never let them leave your hands, period.
I had a similar situation once as the OP, and a “friend” came by and insisted on me giving him the logs. No way.
I held them until the estate sold the aircraft.
I had a similar situation once as the OP, and a “friend” came by and insisted on me giving him the logs. No way.
I held them until the estate sold the aircraft.
Pinecone
En-Route
IMO, best way it to scan the logs and provide a PDF copy if someone needs the logs.
As work is done, the A&P/IA does a signed sticker that YOU place in the logs. Then every so often, scan the new entries and append them to the big PDF.
It doesn't help the OP, but can help someone else avoid a similar situation.
As work is done, the A&P/IA does a signed sticker that YOU place in the logs. Then every so often, scan the new entries and append them to the big PDF.
It doesn't help the OP, but can help someone else avoid a similar situation.
That is our question to. Because he scams people. He knew my dad had a stroke 5 yes ago an new he was in bad health. He told the caregiver to give him the logs.. which he I'm sure knew he shouldn't have them. Now he says he don't have them
He thought we would just sell to him an it would be over. But he tried to get it by lying to us because we know nothing about planes. But I do have common sense. We got 3 times more then his offer. Except now we loose alot because he won't give them up. I have call the cops, but really not much help there.
The caregiver gave them to him. After my dad died, before we got there. I say it's fishy but the cop says she was just trying to help. I don't buy that.
The caregiver gave them to him. None of us know this guy. He lives there. I live a couple hours away. He thought he was going to get the plane an hanger. He even gave stuff out of my dad's hanger after he died. So I have written text from the caregiver and the guy who had them. It's been about a month. I have written text from him saying he had them, but put them in the hanger. Only thing is, we changed locks that day. He wouldn't of been able to.
It was just done. An yes the mechanic is right there. An there is a file of everything on it since he got it about 40 yrs ago. Every registration, if he put a spot of paint on it , it is in the file. Very complete. Thank you, unfortunately the person buying it wants the logs or we loose 10,000 on the sell
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sell to someone else.
Tell him take it or leave it. You should be able to get more than 20k I think. Have you advised it on barnstormers or the like?
I know a guy who left his log books with a mechanic that was not an IA. The mechanic did his annuals for the last 10 years, and when the owner asked for his log books the "mechanic" would not deliver them. The owner called the police, and they got them back. I do not know whatever happened to the quasi mechanic that has represented himself as an IA, he did have his A&P.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Good example of why an owner should maintain current scans of all logs and associated records and documents. The original books might go missing, but it shouldn’t be much of an issue with good-quality scans.
No, I haven't. Thank you for the advice. I appreciate it.
Barrett50
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Barrett50
Your cause of action has nothing to do with the jerk that had the logs. It is against the caregiver who mis-appropriated something that didn't belong to him/her and is culpable for their whereabouts. If you have proof that the caregiver gave them away, go after the caregiver. In court if needed.
Five years have gone by, and no one has done anything about this, I doubt you are ever going to get them back. Plan to re-create what you can, the best you can, and move on with your life. So you can prove the logs were given to the jerk? He says he doesn't have them now. Oh well.
Five years have gone by, and no one has done anything about this, I doubt you are ever going to get them back. Plan to re-create what you can, the best you can, and move on with your life. So you can prove the logs were given to the jerk? He says he doesn't have them now. Oh well.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I’d also suggest hiring a mechanic to research ADs and find out what it would cost to get everything redone/redocumented so you have some kind of idea for the direct cost of the logbook issue.
Obviously there’s a certain amount of “blue sky” value that will play in as well, but at least you’ll have a starting point.
Obviously there’s a certain amount of “blue sky” value that will play in as well, but at least you’ll have a starting point.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
I used to photocopy the logbooks of every aircraft I did an annual on and keep them in a file on my computer. Perhaps the mechanic has such a file? Copies are just as good as the original since it is the information that is pertinent, not the actual physical book.
sansoneservices
Pre-takeoff checklist
First call the police and get written report. Next make small claims Court case. If you have a lawyer that works well with you, call him
Thank you so much for the information. As of now we are taking a 10,000 cut. We originally had it sold at a much higher price but he says to recreate the logs an other things, that's the price. We of course know nothing of the laws, although I have tried to read up on some. Thank you for the help
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Initial Fix
I agree. If the caregiver was part of a service they could also be accountable.
Sadly lawyers cost money. But to recover anything you will likely have to go that way. You could get lucky the they cough up the items with just a well written letter from the lawyer.
He's lowballing you. Lost logs reduce the value some, but not that much... on old planes like the Luscombe the condition is generally much more important than its history, it's different for a complex modern plane. If you can get some basic information (like airframe and engine hours) from the last mechanic who worked on it that's the most important information a buyer would need.
No, I'm sorry I must of gotten my words mixed up. She just gave them to this guy last month the day after my dad passed. My dad had a stroke 5 yrs ago. She says she was doing what my dad asked. Because this guy was so sure he was getting the plane an hanger. He new we didn't know much so his offer was 3 time less then what we got. But now the logs are who knows. I keep asking him but he says he doesn't have them. I agree, the caregiver never should of.gave them away. Thank you so much. I do plan on taking someone to court. I have texts from both admitting they had them. An 10,000 is a big chunk to loose. Thank you again
Really. Thank you very much. The plane is in excellent condition. But he told us the law is they take up 60 percent of the plane value.? He did give a fair price for the plane. But without the logs you would laugh at what it's now selling for. That's why someone needs to pay.
Tell the buyer you'll give him a 10% discount for no logbooks. The value of those books is only subjective to the person buying. No rule of thumb like he states. If he balks at buying it, then you rebuild the books till the last annual. As the current owner you can rebuild most of those 91.417 maintenance records. Then relist it for your original asking price.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
He's lying. There is no "law" regarding aircraft value and logbooks.
Barrett50
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Barrett50
OK, well maybe I misunderstood the timing along the way. The caregiver has committed a conversion of property. Her reasoning could be deemed as innocent mistake, but nonetheless she has committed a violation of law by taking something she KNEW was not her property, and gave it to another. Well outside the scope of her duties, and also flies in the face of 'due care' which a caregiver should know at least something about. She needs to get the logbooks back. Give her 14 days to get the logs back, and barring that she's liable for the loss of value of the plane.
As for the loss of value, it could be 10% or maybe 20%, maybe a bit more. If the guy is a jackass, you can sue him too, but the caregiver is the one on the hot seat. I'm no lawyer, so this is just an opinion, but if you are going to court, sue everyone, and let the judge sort it out.
Thank you so much for the information. You all have been very helpful.
I plan on taking the guy who had them to court, and I will also take her. I like your idea of her getting them back. I will approach her about that. There so many discrepancy on a few other things, so I really will add her. I had a deputy go talk to her. She says my dad told her to give them to him, yet he had , had a stroke, and so odd it was after he passed she gave them.. So yes i think she screwed up. An even so, it's not in any file he made or the will or anywhere. An he had everything for it. They could probably recreate the logs out of the files on the plane. Notes, or a scrape of paper..its there..lol. thanks for the good advice. I appreciate you all
nrpetersen
Line Up and Wait
He knows where the log books are. Maybe he needs Guido to help his memory.