PA28R-180 Piper Arrow Panel Upgrade Talk

Your recommended avionics (can select more than one):

  • Total voters
    23
mandm

mandm

Avionics Upgrade
PoA Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
2,961
Location
Chicago
Display Name
Display name:
Michael
IMG_5786.jpeg

I went to talk to an avionics shop about possibly making some upgrades. I was sort of thinking to remove the vacuum system with 2 x GI275’s, add a GNX375 GPS with ADSB in/out, remove the loran and old transponder, keep the KX155 and CDI/Glideslope for comms and VOR/LOC approaches, keep the GNC300XL for the additional comm radio and backup GPS. I think that could be a pretty good upgrade guessing it will be around 25k?

Then if I wanted to do more, add a GFC500 autopilot, guessing that’s another 25k?

Please share your thoughts on avionics, pricing, etc. Thanks!
 
Wow that looks a lot like the starting point of a PA-28R-180 I did a few years ago. He went with a GMA345, dual G5s, GNX 375, GNC255 and GTR225. Very functional panel.
 

Attachments

  • 2EFC87CA-82DD-43CA-9EFD-D3EED009D7D5.jpeg
    2EFC87CA-82DD-43CA-9EFD-D3EED009D7D5.jpeg
    1.1 MB · Views: 43
  • IMG_0151.jpeg
    IMG_0151.jpeg
    640.6 KB · Views: 42
mandm said:
View attachment 135188

I went to talk to an avionics shop about possibly making some upgrades. I was sort of thinking to remove the vacuum system with 2 x GI275’s, add a GNX375 GPS with ADSB in/out, remove the loran and old transponder, keep the KX155 and CDI/Glideslope for comms and VOR/LOC approaches, keep the GNC300XL for the additional comm radio and backup GPS. I think that could be a pretty good upgrade guessing it will be around 25k?

Then if I wanted to do more, add a GFC500 autopilot, guessing that’s another 25k?

Please share your thoughts on avionics, pricing, etc. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I would love to work with you and get you a quote for the work you are wanting done. We are in Indiana!
 
Garmin 650, larger screen and nice nav/com.

I like the idea of the round 275 units but the G5 has a larger screen.
 
texasclouds said:
G5 has a larger screen.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. The G5 does have 1.8% more area but the the GI275 is taller from top to bottom.The difference is difficult to discern from the naked eye.
 
I just don't like the curved tapes of the 275.

Not an Arrow, but my Mooney panel.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2746.JPG
    IMG_2746.JPG
    3.4 MB · Views: 22
  • IMG_2695.JPG
    IMG_2695.JPG
    3.5 MB · Views: 22
My Arrow II came with dual G5s and an Avidyne IFD540. Added a GFC-500 earlier this year and the GAD-13 (I think). Removed the vacuum at that time. My only wish was that the panel was all Garmin, but I couldn't really justify the cost to dump the IFD for the few features, like being able to set my xponder from the MFD. I have short arms and my xponder is in the far right bay. :D

G5s are great. But I think it's mostly an opinion between them and GI275. I really like having the TAS, OAT and winds from adding the GAD to the G5s. If you're thinking about a GFC-500 now or later, get a GTN navigator.
 
morleyz said:
I couldn't really justify the cost to dump the IFD for the few features, like being able to set my xponder from the MFD. I have short arms and my xponder is in the far right bay. :D
Click to expand...
Talk to your avionics guy. I don't know if it's your transponder, or the installation, or it's there but you don't know it, but I've seen several installations where the transponder is remote and accessed via the IFD. It's the COM/VLOC tuning button. One tap switches from COM to VLOC; 2 taps to Transponder.
 
Thought this thread would have been a little more active. So the thoughts are coming to:

1) GMA345 audio panel
2) GTN650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM
3) GTR205 Secondary Comm
4) GTX345R (remotely mounted ADSB in/out)
5) 3 x GI275 (ADI, HSI, EIS)
6) GFC500 Autopilot
7) USB A/C ports
8) LEMO plugs + traditional mic jacks for pilot/co-pilot
9) Newly cut metal panel powder coated

Decided to skip the secondary NAV radio as I didn’t think I would ever use it. I only use the secondary COMM for getting weather but I can get that thru foreflight anyway.

I welcome your feedback :)

Kind of excited to get everything Garmin and equipment that I’ve trained with and is relatively easy to use. Thought about upgrading airplanes but most aircraft for sale only had a couple upgraded avionics options with some old stuff present with exception for the newer aircraft’s running G1000 which are considerably more expensive. Also I know my airplane and I’m comfortable flying it and it’s been pretty reliable. After hearing many many stories when people changed aircraft, it really made me not want to take those risks although who knows on either route.

I’m hoping I can retain most of the value invested for future purposes and I might try to get a second “faster” airplane down the road with more experience and knowledge of what would be a good option for us.
 
mandm said:
Thought this thread would have been a little more active. So the thoughts are coming to:

1) GMA345 audio panel
2) GTN650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM
3) GTR205 Secondary Comm
4) GTX345R (remotely mounted ADSB in/out)
5) 3 x GI275 (ADI, HSI, EIS)
6) GFC500 Autopilot
7) USB A/C ports
8) LEMO plugs + traditional mic jacks for pilot/co-pilot
9) Newly cut metal panel powder coated

Decided to skip the secondary NAV radio as I didn’t think I would ever use it. I only use the secondary COMM for getting weather but I can get that thru foreflight anyway.

I welcome your feedback :)

Kind of excited to get everything Garmin and equipment that I’ve trained with and is relatively easy to use. Thought about upgrading airplanes but most aircraft for sale only had a couple upgraded avionics options with some old stuff present with exception for the newer aircraft’s running G1000 which are considerably more expensive. Also I know my airplane and I’m comfortable flying it and it’s been pretty reliable. After hearing many many stories when people changed aircraft, it really made me not want to take those risks although who knows on either route.

I’m hoping I can retain most of the value invested for future purposes and I might try to get a second “faster” airplane down the road with more experience and knowledge of what would be a good option for us.
Click to expand...
See if you can get your installer to wire the GTR205 as a GNC215. Outside of the antenna connection, it should only be a couple of extra wires. If someone in the future decides to upgrade then it will mostly be a slide-in affair.
 
mandm said:
I know my airplane and I’m comfortable flying it and it’s been pretty reliable.

I’m hoping I can retain most of the value invested for future purposes and I might try to get a second “faster” airplane down the road with more experience and knowledge of what would be a good option for us.
Click to expand...
Knowing your airplane is very underrated. A huge sense of comfort when you know every nuance.

As for faster….maybe @JimK can build you an Rv14. Let me know when you need a lift to keep 2 in the hangar
 
mandm said:
1) GMA345 audio panel
Click to expand...
If you're going to do the audio panel, which I do recommend, don't bother with a GMA345.

If you're doing the GTN, consider Garmin's GMA350c which lets you do voice commands to the GTN and thus helps to get rid of Garmin's "two touches to get anywhere" user interface. If I'm on my map page, I can just press my PTC button (push to command) on the yoke and say "Show traffic" and I'm instantly on the traffic page. Without that, I'd have to hit Home -> Traffic. As a bonus, since I went directly from Map to Traffic, the Back button (or keying up and saying "Back") will go back to the Map page instead of Home.

And whether or not you do the GTN, consider the PS Engineering PMA450B. PS Engineering does one thing (audio panels) and they do it extremely well.
mandm said:
2) GTN650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM
3) GTR205 Secondary Comm
4) GTX345R (remotely mounted ADSB in/out)
Click to expand...
Unless you really need remote mounted avionics for some reason - And it does not look like you do - Just get the panel mount ones with all the buttons right in front of you. Otherwise, some of the screen real estate on the GTN will be wasted on controls for the remote mount stuff instead of having more data fields available. IMO, those data fields are a lot more useful.
mandm said:
5) 3 x GI275 (ADI, HSI, EIS)
Click to expand...
If you're getting 3x GI275s, you're starting to get into the territory where you might want to consider a G3X touch and only one 275...
mandm said:
6) GFC500 Autopilot
7) USB A/C ports
8) LEMO plugs + traditional mic jacks for pilot/co-pilot
9) Newly cut metal panel powder coated
Click to expand...
... especially if you're getting a new panel cut anyway.
 
Before you go shopping, I'd recommend determining your budget. Window shopping is fun but it's time to be pragmatic. Whatever you choose, double the $$$ for installation. Next, what type of flying do you do, 50% of the time? Personally, I dislike the 275 (as others have pointed out) the curved tapes and the clutter. Yes, you can get used to anything but at what price? Definitely get the PSI audio panel.
 
mandm said:
View attachment 135188

I went to talk to an avionics shop about possibly making some upgrades. I was sort of thinking to remove the vacuum system with 2 x GI275’s, add a GNX375 GPS with ADSB in/out, remove the loran and old transponder, keep the KX155 and CDI/Glideslope for comms and VOR/LOC approaches, keep the GNC300XL for the additional comm radio and backup GPS. I think that could be a pretty good upgrade guessing it will be around 25k?

Then if I wanted to do more, add a GFC500 autopilot, guessing that’s another 25k?

Please share your thoughts on avionics, pricing, etc. Thanks!
Click to expand...
This sounds like a nice plan. However, I would suggest with the GNC 300 (which is obsolete), do you really need a backup GPS and a third comm? How often have you lost comms to make a third comm worthwhile? As for loss of GPS from the GNX 375, you have the KX 155 to VOR/ILS yourself to the ground. One thought - you could put a G5 or GI 275 for the attitude indicator and leave the DG. Why? If your vacuum pump fails, you still have the AHRS equipped G5/GI 275 to keep you upright and GPS or KX 155 to get you to the runway. Avionics installs are not cheap, especially if they find the wiring looms are a mess when they do the upgrade, plus new circuit breakers, routing the new items, making frayed wiring acceptable, etc. Send us pics after the work is done!
 
Here is a before and after pic of our PA-28-140 from last March. I'm in the middle of installing dual Garmin G5s and a Power Flow exhaust.
Screenshot 2024-04-13 at 09.51.04.pngIMG_9339.jpeg
 
Here’s where we are at, the avionics shop is about the place the order with Garmin:

G3X Touch 10.6” with EIS
G5 Standby
GTN650Xi with smart glide switch
GFC500 with auto-trim
GMA345
GTR205
GTX345R
Artex 345 ELT
Garmin USB A/C
Traditional mic + LEMO for pilot/co-pilot
New powder coated panel

Thinking to add a panel mount for Garmin Aera 760 on the co-pilot side, wondering how well that will play with the above but will help for when I want to fly solo in the co-pilot seat.
 
mandm said:
Here’s where we are at, the avionics shop is about the place the order with Garmin:

G3X Touch 10.6” with EIS
G5 Standby
GTN650Xi with smart glide switch
GFC500 with auto-trim
GMA345
GTR205
GTX345R
Artex 345 ELT
Garmin USB A/C
Traditional mic + LEMO for pilot/co-pilot
New powder coated panel

Thinking to add a panel mount for Garmin Aera 760 on the co-pilot side, wondering how well that will play with the above but will help for when I want to fly solo in the co-pilot seat.
Click to expand...
Sweet!! What are you expecting for total cost?
 
asicer said:
How much more was that compared to the GI275s?
Click to expand...
With 3 x GI275s including one as a EIS compared to the G3X/EIS/G5, it’s about 7k cheaper, around 71k. I also just added a new 406MHz ELT ($1500) so that pushed it to just under 80k. With 2 x GI275s and no EIS, it was 59.5k. Adding the GI275 EIS was pretty expensive (11k).

Also the GFC500 has the auto-trim feature which adds a good 5-7k, cannot remember the exact number.

I’m curious how much of this will be retained into the airplane value. I’m hoping most of it.
 
asicer said:
Hey, it only cost you $7k for a G3x Touch? That's a great deal! ;)


Don't think about resale value, think about quality of life.
Click to expand...
Yeah basically swapping the 275s for the G3X+G5 was about 7k. I am happy with that. Of course it’s still ridiculously expensive, more than what I paid for the airplane itself. But she has treated us well, reliable, albeit being slow and a few tire issues. I’m happy with the reliability.
 
Nice panel. I would consider looking at the PS Engineering 450B audio panel. :) Also, the GTX-345R (remote) transponder frees up panel space for later. Maybe room to do 750Xi instead of the 650Xi. The larger screen is NICE.

The 760 in a dock on the right side will work great. I was going that route, but decided to just go ahead and put in the 7" G3X. Part of the decision was that we ran out of RS-232 ports on the 10" G3X. The two G3Xs talk via CANBUS, so the 7" doubles the number of RS-232 connections.

IIRC, if I stayed with the 760 on the right, I would have lost the ability to tune the radios from the G3X. But I have both 750Xi and 650Xi.
 
IMG_6202.png

What do you guys think?
 
IMG_6233.jpeg

The avionics were already on site when I dropped off my airplane.

IMG_6228.jpeg

Here’s the large heated hangar.

75512364212__3A830344-3F4F-456C-8FA2-73CBCFBEF26B.jpeg

Before I got back to Waukegan, they already went to work.
 
75520060806__1DFD127E-FDEE-4606-9D46-B10B1D92E3CE.jpeg

Old avionics are out
 
I hope your update goes better than mine. I replaced all the steam stuff with dual G3Xs, GFC500 autopilot, remote transponder, and remote comm 2 radio.
Afterwards, both fuel tanks leaked (they broke it with new digital fuel senders).

The new engine monitoring system had to be replaced, the passenger audio has never been correct, etc.

The 2 month estimate turned into 5.
 
Datadriver said:
I hope your update goes better than mine. I replaced all the steam stuff with dual G3Xs, GFC500 autopilot, remote transponder, and remote comm 2 radio.
Afterwards, both fuel tanks leaked (they broke it with new digital fuel senders).

The new engine monitoring system had to be replaced, the passenger audio has never been correct, etc.

The 2 month estimate turned into 5.
Click to expand...
Yikes, where did you get your work done? Sorry to hear about that, did it ever get resolved?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top