Insight Wanted: Survey on Catastrophic Oil Leak Detection

[mur_2003]

Hey everyone!

Hope you’re all doing well! We are a group of college students gathering responses for a survey about catastrophic oil leaks in general aviation aircraft and would really appreciate your input. If you have a few minutes, it would mean a lot!

Thanks so much for your help!

Link to Google form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...T72-siEdBFODgkHVO41h6CkQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

 

[Klaus M]

I took the survey...
Not sure oil leak detection is much of a safety concern with reasonable preventative practices.

 

[mur_2003]

I took the survey...
Not sure oil leak detection is much of a safety concern with reasonable preventative practices.

Yes, we’ve discussed this as a group, but some members still believe it is an issue, so we’re continuing to look into it for now. Also, thank you for taking the survey!

 

[cowman]

Define catastrophic.

To me catastrophic implies a leak bad enough that the engine will be starved of oil in minutes or less.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Define catastrophic.

To me catastrophic implies a leak bad enough that the engine will be starved of oil in minutes or less.

Reminds me of this thread, which was informative - and reassuring!

How long can you fly without oil?

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[FORANE]

If it's not leaking, it's out of oil. Or so I've been told; speaking as a guy who has a significant oil leak currently...
Sure would be nice to have an engine designed in the last century or so.

 

[TCABM]

I mean the oil pressure gauge is a pretty good indicator already since a catastrophic leak is going to leave you with no oil.

 

[Albany Tom]

I'm thinking if it sprays all over the windscreen and then the engine stops it's what I'd call catastrophic.

 

[wanttaja]

Hey everyone!

Hope you’re all doing well! We are a group of college students gathering responses for a survey about catastrophic oil leaks in general aviation aircraft and would really appreciate your input. If you have a few minutes, it would mean a lot!

Thanks so much for your help!

Link to Google form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...T72-siEdBFODgkHVO41h6CkQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

I think you're going to have a problem with sample size, on this one.

I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.

There are a lot more production-type aircraft, of course (EAB accounts for about 10% of the US aircraft fleet) but production-type aircraft have a lower rate of mechanical failure. Not all result in an NTSB accident report, either. Also, be aware that there are some failures (such as connecting rods and pistons) which will result in a massive amount of oil being spewed overboard, but that's not the oil system's fault.

Anyway, I've attached a PDF file with the narrative information for oil-related homebuilt accidents from 2008 through 2022.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.

I did check my 1998-2021 Cessna 172 accident database. Out of ~3200 accidents, just 25 involved the oil system.

Like I said, small sample size.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[mur_2003]

I think you're going to have a problem with sample size, on this one.

I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.

There are a lot more production-type aircraft, of course (EAB accounts for about 10% of the US aircraft fleet) but production-type aircraft have a lower rate of mechanical failure. Not all result in an NTSB accident report, either. Also, be aware that there are some failures (such as connecting rods and pistons) which will result in a massive amount of oil being spewed overboard, but that's not the oil system's fault.

Anyway, I've attached a PDF file with the narrative information for oil-related homebuilt accidents from 2008 through 2022.

Ron Wanttaja

Thank you for your message! As I mentioned earlier, we’ve had a group discussion about this, but some members still feel it’s an issue worth exploring further. We appreciate your input and the attachment—I'll share it with the group!

 

[RyanShort1]

I've had at least two forced landings affected by oil loss in the last three years.

I took the survey and left you some comments.

 

[Iflydogs]

I've had at least two forced landings affected by oil loss in the last three years.

I took the survey and left you some comments.

That is quite terrifying! Would you mind elaborating, if you haven’t done so previously? I am always on the lookout for lessons learned; that is the main reason I look at this forum.

 

[RyanShort1]

That is quite terrifying! Would you mind elaborating, if you haven’t done so previously? I am always on the lookout for lessons learned; that is the main reason I look at this forum.

Not my favorite way to finish a photo mission...

Our Thursday was "interesting." The good news is, she's back on her feet, not too badly damaged from the initial look at her. Also... I'm still looking for a 182. https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/wanted-cessna-182-for-lease-in-dallas-texas.148697

www.pilotsofamerica.com

This was one of them. We think that the oil leak that forced our hand was a gasket on the oil filter, of all things.

Lessons learned? My number one takeaway from both incidents is that sometimes a mechanical situation can put you in a situation where straight-up skill and recent practice is just as important as ADM.

 

[Racerx]

My apologies on some of my snarky comments as I’m trying to visualize what such a device would be. Or the actual usefulness over the current instruments already in the plane.

 

[Jim K]

My apologies on some of my snarky comments as I’m trying to visualize what such a device would be. Or the actual usefulness over the current instruments already in the plane.

I could see an oil level sensor that reports to an engine monitor. That would actually be pretty cool.

 

[mur_2003]

My apologies on some of my snarky comments as I’m trying to visualize what such a device would be. Or the actual usefulness over the current instruments already in the plane.

No worries at all! I’m not an aviation expert myself, but this idea was suggested by someone in the group with experience in aviation, so I’m still learning. We’re currently evaluating whether to shift our focus, but any changes will require the approval of the entire group. Some members remain uncertain about the necessity of this idea and are waiting for the survey results to guide their decision. I truly appreciate your honesty in your responses and the time you took to complete the survey! Thank you!

 

[Racerx]

I could see an oil level sensor that reports to an engine monitor. That would actually be pretty cool.

Apparently someone makes it...

Low Oil Level Sensor, by Aircraft Extras, Inc.

Low Oil Level Sensor for Aircraft

www.aircraftextras.com

 

[Half Fast]

I completed the survey and left a comment.

Total loss of oil is usually not a stand-alone event. It occurs as a result of some other failure. Having a warning light telling me my oil is gone won't be very helpful when there's a large hole in my crankcase and the engine has come to a stop. Furthermore, I can probably figure out that the oil has departed the engine by noticing that much of it is smeared all over my windshield.

 

[FORANE]

Rather than an oil level sensor, a chip detector may provide warning prior to complete failure.

 

[Half Fast]

.....but some members still feel it’s an issue worth exploring further.

Can we assume those members are not pilots?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Low oil pressure and/or high oil temperature are possible indicators of low oil for which there are already those required indicators on aviation piston engines.

I looked at the survey and my responses were going to be inconsistent and misinterpreted because of the survey design. I think you should solicit input from a professional researcher, and maybe one who works in aviation, since you are at a college.

 

[mur_2003]

Can we assume those members are not pilots?

Yes, that is correct—none of our members are pilots. Our group consists of five individuals: two aerospace majors, two computer science majors, and one computer engineering major. The idea was suggested by one of the aerospace majors, whose father is a pilot and supported the concept. I’m one of the computer science majors, and my role was to design and distribute the survey during the current market research phase.

 

[mur_2003]

Low oil pressure and/or high oil temperature are possible indicators of low oil for which there are already those required indicators on aviation piston engines.

I looked at the survey and my responses were going to be inconsistent and misinterpreted because of the survey design. I think you should solicit input from a professional researcher, and maybe one who works in aviation, since you are at a college.

I've conducted interviews with two individuals: one is an A&P mechanic/IA with 29 years of experience and an aircraft analyst for 13 years, while the other has worked on engines and aircraft for 23 years. The survey was a required part of our first-year seminar called 'Introduction to Technology and Innovation.' I apologize if the survey was unclear or poorly worded; I don’t have much experience in aviation.

 

[Iflydogs]

I took the survey and wish you luck. I don’t know how it works on a larger plane, but on mine, when I toggle the heating knob I get a strong whiff of whatever is going on in the engine compartment two feet in front of me. The heater is just a half cowling that wraps around the exhaust pipes. So if anything untoward were going on there, like an oil leak, my nose will tell me. Maybe in a larger plane or a twin where you don’t have such an intimate relationship with your engine, a leak detector might be useful, but for a light single, not so much.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I've conducted interviews with two individuals: one is an A&P mechanic/IA with 29 years of experience and an aircraft analyst for 13 years, while the other has worked on engines and aircraft for 23 years. The survey was a required part of our first-year seminar called 'Introduction to Technology and Innovation.' I apologize if the survey was unclear or poorly worded; I don’t have much experience in aviation.

No worries friend. I’m no aviation expert either, but have engine experience. My comment was really about survey design. What you’re doing is probably just fine for the class. There are probably experts in your school who have designed research surveys so that the data they get back is “clean” and interpretable. As well, your college probably has an Institutional Review Board that reviews and approves stuff like this which is considered human research, but that’s a ton of red tape.

Nevertheless, please if you have the time, patience, and interest, let us know how the work was received (score/grade), any discussions, and the final results.

All the best.

 

[Klaus M]

I'm told that the college age students today are all computer whizzes. They use Artificial Intelligence (AI) for everything (I watch TV ya know). The aviation industry can use your expertise in simplifying our most complicated challenges.

The biggest challenges in the Aviation industry is getting past the FAA's road blocks. Certificating anything and everything has become radically expensive and complicated. Three decades and counting just to replace 100LL. Millions of dollars have been spent for approving life saving GPS Moving Map Displays. 50 years after the automotive industry implementation several companies have produced electronic engine control systems (FADEC) for our legacy engines and still very few have made it to the certified world. Don't be so focused and worried about 'Catastrophic oil lose' when the big package is more important.

Create AI software/programs/app (whatever they call it today) that read all the regulations and past certification presidents and make it cheaper to get approvals for the many developments that are already in the homebuilt world but can't make into the certified fleet. There's many homebuilt aircraft that have Lycoming and Continental engines using complete electronic computer control fuel and ignition system (EFI) that should be eligible for every aircraft but it's too complicated to certify according to the FAA.

 

[mur_2003]

I mean the oil pressure gauge is a pretty good indicator already since a catastrophic leak is going to leave you with no oil.

No worries friend. I’m no aviation expert either, but have engine experience. My comment was really about survey design. What you’re doing is probably just fine for the class. There are probably experts in your school who have designed research surveys so that the data they get back is “clean” and interpretable. As well, your college probably has an Institutional Review Board that reviews and approves stuff like this which is considered human research, but that’s a ton of red tape.

Nevertheless, please if you have the time, patience, and interest, let us know how the work was received (score/grade), any discussions, and the final results.

All the best.

We recently held a group discussion, and some key takeaways emerged. On one hand, half of the group feels that there is insufficient data or evidence to support the need for a detection system for catastrophic oil leaks before takeoff, questioning whether it’s truly a significant issue also based on the survey results. On the other hand, some argue that the gauges in older aircraft are often inaccurate, making our proposed system necessary. They believe that even if pilots don’t perceive the issue as critical, it’s still a real concern that we need to address. Additionally, it was pointed out that our system could serve as a preventive measure, potentially saving money in the long run by avoiding the far higher costs of a crash.

 

[Half Fast]

They believe that even if pilots don’t perceive the issue as critical, it’s still a real concern that we need to address.

Interesting perspective. Do they believe they somehow have better knowledge than the pilots? That seems rather arrogant. What evidence do they have for it being a “real concern?” What makes their opinions better than those of trained, licensed, experienced aviators?

This type of “we know better” thinking leads to business failures. Pilots would be the customers for such a system and it’s therefore their opinion that matters.

 

[mur_2003]

Interesting perspective. Do they believe they somehow have better knowledge than the pilots? That seems rather arrogant. What evidence do they have for it being a “real concern?” What makes their opinions better than those of trained, licensed, experienced aviators?

This type of “we know better” thinking leads to business failures. Pilots would be the customers for such a system and it’s therefore their opinion that matters.

I'm not entirely sure myself, but one of our team members' father is a pilot, and he supports the idea, along with others in aviation that he knows. We have another team meeting on Thursday, and in the meantime, we're working to gather more evidence and speak with as many experienced aviation professionals as we can. I completely agree that the opinion of pilots is extremely important in this process. In fact, we've already received valuable input from 25 pilots who filled out the survey, many of whom specifically mentioned the importance of gauges. I'm struggling to see how their input could be dismissed, as they have direct, hands-on experience in aviation. On Thursday, we’ll evaluate all the feedback and decide whether to move forward with our current idea or if we are going to switch to another idea.

 

[TCABM]

We recently held a group discussion, and some key takeaways emerged. On one hand, half of the group feels that there is insufficient data or evidence to support the need for a detection system for catastrophic oil leaks before takeoff...

Okay, now you’re getting real niche use case, so I’ll my relevant story that played out across most last year is a C-172 that flies about 300hrs/yr in a partnership arrangement.

The scenario you describe, catastrophic oil leak prior to takeoff, supposes a few minutes of low power engine settings prior to full throttle application.

For most of last year, we chased a tiny, but progressively worsening oil leak that played out over most of 300hrs. Four flights prior to the images below, we had an in-flight divert due to smoke in the cockpit. Maintenance identified a cracked hose going to the oil cooler, replaced it, cleaned up the firewall forward area, did a ground run and a test flight and could not identify any more leaks based on dye testing.

The plane was ferried back, I flew it on a 3.5hr cross country and another partner flew it for about 1.0 locally with the same minimal oil leak. Like less than a quart every 10 hours minimal. Then I showed up to pre-flight it and found this:

That was a significant change AND developed while the engine was clean and cold. So we pulled off the cowling and found the source of our original leak.

What I learned about oil leaks from that is any oil leak should be treated as a ticking time bomb. Said differently, the decision making to takeoff with a known and unresolved oil leak is not one I made that day and I won’t again.

These engines might consume oil, but they aren’t designed to leak. If they are leaking, that’s something that needs to be fixed.

 

[mur_2003]

Okay, now you’re getting real niche use case, so I’ll my relevant story that played out across most last year is a C-172 that flies about 300hrs/yr in a partnership arrangement.

The scenario you describe, catastrophic oil leak prior to takeoff, supposes a few minutes of low power engine settings prior to full throttle application.

For most of last year, we chased a tiny, but progressively worsening oil leak that played out over most of 300hrs. Four flights prior to the images below, we had an in-flight divert due to smoke in the cockpit. Maintenance identified a cracked hose going to the oil cooler, replaced it, cleaned up the firewall forward area, did a ground run and a test flight and could not identify any more leaks based on dye testing.

The plane was ferried back, I flew it on a 3.5hr cross country and another partner flew it for about 1.0 locally with the same minimal oil leak. Like less than a quart every 10 hours minimal. Then I showed up to pre-flight it and found this:

That was a significant change AND developed while the engine was clean and cold. So we pulled off the cowling and found the source of our original leak.

What I learned about oil leaks from that is any oil leak should be treated as a ticking time bomb. Said differently, the decision making to takeoff with a known and unresolved oil leak is not one I made that day and I won’t again.

These engines might consume oil, but they aren’t designed to leak. If they are leaking, that’s something that needs to be fixed.

Thank you for your response! Upon reflection, I realize I should have phrased my message more clearly. What I meant to convey is that the idea involves a system capable of detecting a potential catastrophic oil leak before takeoff. From what I can recall, it was mentioned at the meeting that the oil gauges in older aircraft are often inaccurate, and reliable readings can only be obtained after landing, following a flight.

 

[Racerx]

We recently held a group discussion, and some key takeaways emerged. On one hand, half of the group feels that there is insufficient data or evidence to support the need for a detection system for catastrophic oil leaks before takeoff, questioning whether it’s truly a significant issue also based on the survey results. On the other hand, some argue that the gauges in older aircraft are often inaccurate, making our proposed system necessary. They believe that even if pilots don’t perceive the issue as critical, it’s still a real concern that we need to address. Additionally, it was pointed out that our system could serve as a preventive measure, potentially saving money in the long run by avoiding the far higher costs of a crash.

What is this mythical preventative system you propose that would predict when my engine would unswallow over itself? Perhaps knowing what you're proposing, and more than a vague idea would change my opinion. As of right now, it just sounds like a few people with zero real world experience dealing with this supposed problem they're trying to solve think they know more than the people with experience. That generally doesn't go over well with me.

Despite the age of the fleet, their are retrofit gauges for those willing to pay for it.

 

[mur_2003]

What is this mythical preventative system you propose that would predict when my engine would unswallow over itself? Perhaps knowing what you're proposing, and more than a vague idea would change my opinion. As of right now, it just sounds like a few people with zero real world experience dealing with this supposed problem they're trying to solve think they know more than the people with experience. That generally doesn't go over well with me.

Despite the age of the fleet, their are retrofit gauges for those willing to pay for it.

View attachment 134911

I’m not trying to change your opinion, as I’m actually one of the group members who believes we should reconsider this idea. Right now, we’re in the market research phase of the course, which is focused on determining if there is a genuine need or demand for our idea, and whether there are existing competitors in the space. We won’t begin the actual design phase until next week. I apologize if it came across as though we were certain about our proposal.

Our current proposed POV statement is: "Pilots of general & corporate aircraft need a system to detect dangerous levels of oil leakage because the system doesn't currently exist in general & corporate aircraft and as a result, pilots and passengers of these planes are in danger during severe oil leakage."

I agree that listening to pilots and those with real-world experience is crucial, especially when designing something that would impact them directly.

Also, I appreciate your feedback and I hope this helps clarify where we are in the process.

 

[Jim K]

Interesting perspective. Do they believe they somehow have better knowledge than the pilots? That seems rather arrogant. What evidence do they have for it being a “real concern?” What makes their opinions better than those of trained, licensed, experienced aviators?

This type of “we know better” thinking leads to business failures. Pilots would be the customers for such a system and it’s therefore their opinion that matters.

OTOH, they have a promising future with the FAA

 

[Racerx]

I’m not trying to change your opinion, as I’m actually one of the group members who believes we should reconsider this idea. Right now, we’re in the market research phase of the course, which is focused on determining if there is a genuine need or demand for our idea, and whether there are existing competitors in the space. We won’t begin the actual design phase until next week. I apologize if it came across as though we were certain about our proposal.

Our current proposed POV statement is: "Pilots of general & corporate aircraft need a system to detect dangerous levels of oil leakage because the system doesn't currently exist in general & corporate aircraft and as a result, pilots and passengers of these planes are in danger during severe oil leakage."

I agree that listening to pilots and those with real-world experience is crucial, especially when designing something that would impact them directly.

Also, I appreciate your feedback and I hope this helps clarify where we are in the process.

I am trying to be open minded. There is potentially a market for such a thing. I just don't know what such a thing would be or how it would work. That's where some of my skepticism lied. Predictive failure is the holy grail of anything engineering. When it comes to aircraft engines I'm not sure what else could be done besides oil temp, oil pressure, egt, cht. And oil analysis every 50 hours.

Use @Jim K as an example. How would whatever you dream up predict or know that a tiny set screw has backed out 1/8 of a turn?

 

[Racerx]

OTOH, they have a promising future with the government

Ftfy

 

[Half Fast]

Right now, we’re in the market research phase of the course, which is focused on determining if there is a genuine need or demand for our idea, and whether there are existing competitors in the space.

Here’s a business lesson for your group: don’t invest time and money in research if your minds are already made up and you will ignore the research and proceed anyway.

If you’re convinced that there would be a market, then focus your research on what functions and features customers want.

Also, in a highly regulated field like aviation, it’s a huge mistake not to consult the regulators who will have to approve and certify the product. In the end, it’s very possible that the game won’t be worth the candle.

 

[TCABM]

… Right now, we’re in the market research phase of the course,
….

Q: are you in the problem identification, segment/target/positioning, or the fast financials phase?

… "Pilots of general & corporate aircraft need a system to detect dangerous levels of oil leakage because the system doesn't currently exist in general & corporate aircraft and as a result, pilots and passengers of these planes are in danger during severe oil leakage."…

Systems do exist, from visual inspection to oil temperature and pressure monitoring though. They’re required equipment.

I don’t think accident data supports the theory of an oil leak being the source of the engine coming from together.

Consider a pivot. Example: fuel gauges are required equipment, but their accuracy is questionable, so a company built a digital fuel level sender to solve that problem and found a market to exploit.

Now, a catastrophic engine failure needs to be detectable…turbines have sensors that can help with this, pistons don’t. Maybe some type of real-tie vibration analyzer/sudden deconstruction warning indicator?

 

[Jim_R]

Here’s a business lesson for your group: don’t invest time and money in research if your minds are already made up and you will ignore the research and proceed anyway.

If you’re convinced that there would be a market, then focus your research on what functions and features customers want.

Also, in a highly regulated field like aviation, it’s a huge mistake not to consult the regulators who will have to approve and certify the product. In the end, it’s very possible that the game won’t be worth the candle.

Um, you know these are kids who are going through a learning process, dontcha? It's a "process". Cut 'em some slack.