Looking for info on less lethal/non lethal self defense products

[MauleSkinner]

For the record, I got a 9mm with a couple of clips, and a box of shells.

 

[eman1200]

 

[Ed Haywood]

I have never met anyone who shot an assailant.

Off the top of my head, I can name 10 people who shot themselves or had a family member do so. I met 3 of them just in the past week.

 

[ateamer]

Keep in mind that if you use pepper spray on someone, you’re going to get it on yourself. Best to be exposed beforehand and know what to expect and be able to fight through it than have your first time be when you do it live. Every time I used or was present when pepper spray was deployed, there was secondary exposure.

As far as electrical discharge weapons (Taser et al), they are not a panacea. Tasers need both darts to penetrate the skin with a pretty good spread between them. 75% of the time that I used one or was present - meaning firsthand experience - the Taser did not stop the fight.

Stun guns are a pain compliance weapon. They do not cause neuromuscular disruption, so if the bad guy is really drunk or high, or is committed to the fight, it won’t work.

I’m not saying to not carry any of them, but just be aware of the limitations. I will say don’t carry any weapon that you haven’t trained with.

Avoidance is the best defense. Stay away from dopers, dealers, drunks, gangbangers, and bad neighborhoods. If you aren’t into drugs and/or gangs, and can keep your mouth shut when you drink, then you’ve reduced your chances of needing to fight by about 99.9999%.

 

[DaleB]

I have never met anyone who shot an assailant.

Off the top of my head, I can name 10 people who shot themselves or had a family member do so. I met 3 of them just in the past week.

I don't know anyone in either group, but I did know one guy who was killed, along with his wife, by an ex-convict with a stolen shotgun -- apparently "just because". I'm sure it would never have occurred to him to carry anything for self-defense, and I doubt he'd ever been in a fight of any sort. There's always that corner case.

 

[Half Fast]

I have never met anyone who shot an assailant.

I have personally known a few who stopped crimes using a gun without needing to fire a shot. I’ve never known anyone injured by a gun accident.

Personal experiences vary, and don’t necessarily constitute good data in themselves.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I’ve never known anyone injured by a gun accident.

I did not use the word "accident".

The majority of successful suicides are by gun. 90% of suicide attempts by gun are successful, vs 10% of other methods.

Before introducing guns into your home, be aware of this. Anyone with access to that gun can kill themselves in 5-10 seconds. That is not a lot of cooling off time for someone having a bad moment.

Last year over 27,000 victims and their families learned that the hard way. In the majority of cases, those closest to them had no clue they were at risk.

I am not anti-gun. I have carried them professionally, and I have been shot at. But if you are getting one to reduce the risk of something bad happening to your family, be aware of ALL risks. The stats clearly say the biggest risk of owning a gun is to your own family, by their own hand.

 

[DavidWhite]

Sig P365 is small, light, 9mm, and easy/fun to shoot.

Huh? The 365 shoots like a subcompact 9mm. Nothing fun about it. The X Macro 365 is probably the least unpleasant little pistol I’ve ever shot, but I would not call it fun. I had mine for a year and sold it because I preferred to carry other pistols that I shoot more.

The bigger the pistol, the more pleasant to shoot IMO. Hard go go wrong with a glock 19 imo

 

[sansoneservices]

My wife and daughters have been carrying pepper spray on their key rings for several years now, but there was an event this weekend where they both felt the need for increased protection. My wife and I took a concealed carry class a few years ago, but even with a few in the house, we just aren’t comfortable enough with the idea of carrying firearms for various reasons.

But when my wife was at the gun shop/firing range investigating alternatives, pepper ball guns came up. They seem a lot closer to our comfort level. The Byrne website, https://byrna.com/ , says “legal in 50 states,” but what does that really mean? And what kind of restrictions would we need to look for on the state and local levels?

Can anyone school me a bit on this stuff?

Thanks!

.380acp (just kidding)

 

[Pinecone]

I agree for the pocket 380s, but companies are making locked-breach 380s in bigger sizes that are very comfortable to shoot because they have almost no recoil. @SkyChaser has one. I think they can make for great first-pistols.

True. But now you can get a 9 mm the same size.

 

[Pinecone]

Huh? The 365 shoots like a subcompact 9mm. Nothing fun about it. The X Macro 365 is probably the least unpleasant little pistol I’ve ever shot, but I would not call it fun. I had mine for a year and sold it because I preferred to carry other pistols that I shoot more.

The bigger the pistol, the more pleasant to shoot IMO. Hard go go wrong with a glock 19 imo

You must be a wimp shooter.

As I said, I fired 200 rounds through mine the first time at the range and only stopped due to only bringing that much to the range.

It shoots like a much larger pistol.

 

[Flatiowa]

full size versions of the 1911 M1A1 chambered in 9mm are an extremely pleasant to shoot pistol.

 

[Pinecone]

As are Browning High Powers.

 

[DavidWhite]

full size versions of the 1911 M1A1 chambered in 9mm are an extremely pleasant to shoot pistol.

I really like my Staccato C2. I’m waiting to see how much the prices drop on the XC since people finally figured out that 2011s aren’t drop safe like 95% of other 1911s because they don’t have a firing pin block like the series 80 colts. There’s lots of very upset people on the internet and law enforcement agencies are starting to not allow them for duty carry, so the price should start to drop. Hopefully substantially. They’re fantastic shooting pistols.

 

[Albany Tom]

I really like my Staccato C2. I’m waiting to see how much the prices drop on the XC since people finally figured out that 2011s aren’t drop safe like 95% of other 1911s because they don’t have a firing pin block like the series 80 colts. There’s lots of very upset people on the internet and law enforcement agencies are starting to not allow them for duty carry, so the price should start to drop. Hopefully substantially. They’re fantastic shooting pistols.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't know of any LE agency around here that has 1911's as a duty gun, except for tactical teams. All that I know of are using some form of double action only. I think for a period of time NYSP carried SA/DA Berreta 92s, but that was a long time ago. And I have a couple of Colt 80's that have the firing pin block, but I'm pretty sure that firing pin blocks are the exception on 1911's other than later year Colts. I don't find them annoying but a lot of competitive shooters seem to.

All that said, I love 1911's and the X thousands of an inch trigger pull after takeup. I don't think they're avoided by LE because of the lack of drop-safe, but rather the length of the SA trigger pull that makes it so easy to shoot accurately. And I get that risk. I only know of one person personally who accidentally shot themselves, and it was with a non-Colt 1911. Not because he dropped it, but because he broke a couple of basic safety rules and ended up pulling it out of the holster with the safety off, and finger on the trigger. He survived. 1911's, like airplanes, aren't well suited to some mistakes.

Back to OP. I've read along, and hate to say it but I think that the best plan is to not have them travel or be alone, even with being armed. I say that because the advantage is with the attacker in a motivated 1:1 incident. Hope everything works out and he fades away peacefully.

 

[TCABM]

I really like my Staccato C2. I’m waiting to see how much the prices drop on the XC since people finally figured out that 2011s aren’t drop safe like 95% of other 1911s because they don’t have a firing pin block like the series 80 colts. There’s lots of very upset people on the internet and law enforcement agencies are starting to not allow them for duty carry, so the price should start to drop. Hopefully substantially. They’re fantastic shooting pistols.

I carry an X-9 90+% of the time and a P365 without the thumb safety the rest.

No firearm is truly drop safe and the series 80 simply disconnects the trigger from the firing pin; that does nothing to prevent other failure modes.

Also, the Series 80 implementation isn’t physically possible in striker fired pistol such as the P365. There’s other tricks (see Glock - who didn’t invent the striker fired pistol nor the safe action trigger) that each have their own failure modes.

The vast majority of negligent discharges occur due to someone or something manipulating the trigger as opposed to a true accidental discharge where there’s a mechanical failure that’s independent of anything else, including a drop.

I won’t even comment on the brainpower it takes to convince yourself that dropping a firearm that’s configured to fire is a good idea. Much less slinging one around on a duty rig into the trunk. That’s like telling someone to walk thru the prop arc while the engine’s turning.

 

[Piperonca]

These truths are true for any sort of violent resistance to violence, but personally I'd rather hash it out in a courtroom than be unable to argue because I'm in a coffin. There is no means to defend yourself that is completely without risk. The point is to incur less risk than you would by NOT defending yourself, and financial risk at any level is better than risking death.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[DavidWhite]

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't know of any LE agency around here that has 1911's as a duty gun, except for tactical teams.

I know a detective that is a rep for Staccato and him and all his friends carry either P or the XC. I know another police officer that I occasionally shoot F class with who carries a Staccato as well. The owner of one of my favorite local gun shops teaches classes to the local SWAT team, he also happens to be a Staccato dealer and claims that the majority of the teams carry them.

Obviously, all of these guys are operating at a substantially higher level than the local traffic cops, but they seem to be fairly common in LEO service up here.

This current round of angst directed at 1911/2011 style pistols started from a video that was posted by a youtuber. An interesting thread about it here. I am not worried about it at all, it seems about the only way it can happen is to drop it on concrete directly onto the muzzle from 5’.

 

[Piperonca]

Yep, but a bit more challenging for women.

And that's another reason I like pocket carry (with pocket holster). My carry method and weapon location is always the same, regardless of what I'm wearing. I have three handguns that I use for CCW: a Keltec .32, a 9mm semiauto, and a .38sp snub. I can fit one of those in any pants I own. Most often I carry the 9 or the .38, but when in dress slacks or snug jeans I can still carry the .32.

Can't find it now, but a story I loved from a few years ago was about a little old lady who decided she needed a firearm for protection. A friend helped her purchase a KelTec P32, which was checked and loaded before going into the lady's purse. Sometime after that she was attacked by an assailant and promptly withdrew the pistol from her purse, killing the man with one shot.

Before an unfortunate series of boating accidents liquidated my collection of pistols, I had one of those KelTec 32s. You can't beat it for small size and easy shooting (read the reviews). Best option I know of for a lady, little or otherwise.

 

[Albany Tom]

I carry an X-9 90+% of the time and a P365 without the thumb safety the rest.

No firearm is truly drop safe and the series 80 simply disconnects the trigger from the firing pin; that does nothing to prevent other failure modes.

Also, the Series 80 implementation isn’t physically possible in striker fired pistol such as the P365. There’s other tricks (see Glock - who didn’t invent the striker fired pistol nor the safe action trigger) that each have their own failure modes.

The vast majority of negligent discharges occur due to someone or something manipulating the trigger as opposed to a true accidental discharge where there’s a mechanical failure that’s independent of anything else, including a drop.

I won’t even comment on the brainpower it takes to convince yourself that dropping a firearm that’s configured to fire is a good idea. Much less slinging one around on a duty rig into the trunk. That’s like telling someone to walk thru the prop arc while the engine’s turning.

Agree with all of your post but 2 little things. I have 2 80 series, a gold cup and a delta. In both, the firing pin block isn't a disconnect. It's a pin with a groove that is set 90 degrees to the firing pin. Unless the block is held in, the firing pin is captured and can't move. I don't think it's possible for it to fire from a drop. Those were both purchased in the late 80's early 90's...I don't know if newer models were built differently. I also used to have a Wather PPK. Beautiful, but too heavy for me and lousy hammer bite. But..the safety actually wrapped around the firing pin in safe mode, making it immovable. Now all add a caveat to the 1911 firing pin block...like any mechanical system it's not perfect. If there is unusual wear on the firing pin, it's possible for the firing pin block to drop right out of the slide, and a shooter would never know it unless they looked for it. Had it happen.

1911's, all of them, should be relatively drop safe if built correctly, but I wouldn't want to be around any of them if accidentally dropped. Pretty sure one of the standard post repair checks is to cock it and hit it from various directions with a rubber hammer. If the hammer drops, you've screwed up the sear/hammer alignment. The engagement between those two parts is really tiny and it's easy to screw up. I've seen some where the hammer would jump just from dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

 

[DaleB]

I really wanted to get my wife a PPK, if for no other reason than the cool factor of her carrying James Bond’s pistol. Unfortunately she couldn’t rack the slide. We got her an LCP.

Unfortunately it fell out of her pocket while fishing and is now somewhere at the bottom of a really big lake.

 

[TCABM]

Agree with all of your post but 2 little things. I have 2 80 series, a gold cup and a delta. In both, the firing pin block isn't a disconnect. It's a pin with a groove that is set 90 degrees to the firing pin. Unless the block is held in, the firing pin is captured and can't move. I don't think it's possible for it to fire from a drop. ….

The plunger’s biggest fault is being entirely dependent on timing. Moving too early or too late results in something like this.

That results in other problems, and in rare instances has led not just to firing pin damage, but to breaking into two pieces.

 

[Half Fast]

Unfortunately she couldn’t rack the slide.

Sometimes it works better for the shooter to hold the slide with the weak hand and push with the hand holding the gun, rather than trying to pull the slide back with the weak hand.

 

[DaleB]

Sometimes it works better for the shooter to hold the slide with the weak hand and push with the hand holding the gun, rather than trying to pull the slide back with the weak hand.

Yeah, we tried that. She didn't like it, could still barely rack the thing. Watching her do it, I also thought it would be a fantastic way for her to shoot herself in the arm if she had to do it under intense stress.