ACS Standards Question

[Pilot-To-Be]

Hello,

I am just about to take my CFI checkride. My question is, the ACS says for the short field landing that the point is

[clear 50' obstacle, +100', - 0', 1.3 Vso +/-5, over the centerline]

If I pick the thousand footers (threshold bars) which are about 150ft long, does that 100ft start after the bar or where is it taken from? If I were to pick the 500 footers which are only about 50 feet long, how is the 100ft taken into consideration between differing points that can be chosen to touch down?

 

[MauleSkinner]

You pick the point, and touch down within the specified distance from there. If you pick the thousand foot markers, you also need to specify where on the thousand foot markers you’re referring to, i.e., the beginning, the end, or some other point.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Where does the CFI ACS say that? I can’t find it. And I don’t understand what you are asking.

To me “[clear 50' obstacle, +100', - 0']” (If that’s what it says) means you have to clear the obstacle by at least zero feet (or you will hit it) and by no more that 100’ (or you will not be stabilized).

If you are taking about the distance from the point you specify, seem self-explanatory, per @MauleSkinner’ comment.

 

[Rgbeard]

The exact wording is:

AI.VII.F.S10

Touch down at a proper pitch attitude within 100 feet beyond or on the specified point, threshold
markings, or runway numbers, with no side drift, minimum float, and with the airplane’s longitudinal
axis aligned with and over the runway centerline.

I’m not seeing anything about a 50’ obstacle. And my examiner never mentioned one. I just got it slow and hit the point.

 

[RussR]

When I was teaching, yes I would.often say "Land on the thousand foot markers". Because if you can, then you are definitely within 200 of the start of them. I admit saying it this way is a bit of a verbal shorthand for the real intent, which is "your target is the start of the thousand foot markers. Land no prior to that, and within 200 feet after that".

But using the thousand footers as the "landing area", in my experience, tended to reduce the number of attempts that landed short. And if they can land within 150 ft of the start, reliably, then they can certainly land within 200 ft of it. It's effectively tightening up the standard without the student really knowing that's what you're doing. Plus, if they go a little past the markers, it's pretty hard to accurately gauge if they were within 50 ft of the end.

But you can do it at any point, and SHOULD practice at different points for a different perspective. And not all runways even have thousand foot markers anyway. So, pick the top of the runway numbers. Or the beginning of the second runway stripe. Or abeam the PAPIs, taxiway edge, whatever. And be within -0/+200 feet of it.

 

[RyanB]

So, pick the top of the runway numbers. Or the beginning of the second runway stripe. Or abeam the PAPIs, taxiway edge, whatever. And be within -0/+200 feet of it.

‘cept it’s +100ft for the CFI.

 

[ateamer]

On my CFI checkride, the DPE called for a short field landing, for which I aimed for the base of the first piano key and nailed. Then he told me to do it again, but on the threshold (not a displaced one).

His reasoning was that you can land a thousand feet down the runway all day long, but what happens when you have a true short runway and you’ve never had to actually plant it tight?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Then he told me to do it again, but on the threshold

Did he define “threshold “? First brick? Threshold markings (beginning, end, or…?) Numbers (beginning, end, or…?)

 

[RussR]

‘cept it’s +100ft for the CFI.

Yes, you are correct, I forgot we were talking about the CFI checkride. Thanks!

 

[RussR]

On my CFI checkride, the DPE called for a short field landing, for which I aimed for the base of the first piano key and nailed. Then he told me to do it again, but on the threshold (not a displaced one).

His reasoning was that you can land a thousand feet down the runway all day long, but what happens when you have a true short runway and you’ve never had to actually plant it tight?

"Piano keys"? In my experience, that term means the threshold markers. So the difference between the runway threshold and the base of the piano keys must be all of 10 or 20 feet.

But assuming you mean the aiming point markers/thousand foot markers/Captain's bars, I do tend to agree with your DPE. I would have my students practice spot landings at multiple points along the runway. However, I usually don't recommend aiming for the actual "first brick" of the threshold, just in case you do come up short. Wasn't there an accident recently where someone did come up short, and otherwise would have been fine, but the concrete was several inches higher than the grass and it significantly damaged the airplane? Of course, if you have a displaced threshold, not as much worry from that aspect.

 

[TCABM]

"… Wasn't there an accident recently where someone did come up short, and otherwise would have been fine, but the concrete was several inches higher than the grass and it significantly damaged the airplane? Of course, if you have a displaced threshold, not as much worry from that aspect.

Don’t know if I posted about it here, but that’s exactly what happened to a 172 I used to fly (not me) in August of last year. Prop strike and some other damage.

Allstate Aircraft Salvage purchased it this past March and was being parted out on Barnstormers last I saw.

 

[MauleSkinner]

For the benefit of all of us, including the OP, I’ll just note that clarity of questions and answers is important for an instructor…

Where does the CFI ACS say that? I can’t find it. And I don’t understand what you are asking.

I’m not seeing anything about a 50’ obstacle.

I admit saying it this way is a bit of a verbal shorthand for the real intent,

Did he define “threshold “?

"Piano keys"? In my experience, that term means the threshold markers.

 

[ateamer]

Did he define “threshold “? First brick? Threshold markings (beginning, end, or…?) Numbers (beginning, end, or…?)

The top of the runway width markers, which was maybe 60 yards from the pavement edge. Easy peasy in an Arrow, especially with the approach being wide open.

 

[StraightnLevel]

On my CFI checkride, the DPE called for a short field landing, for which I aimed for the base of the first piano key and nailed. Then he told me to do it again, but on the threshold (not a displaced one).

His reasoning was that you can land a thousand feet down the runway all day long, but what happens when you have a true short runway and you’ve never had to actually plant it tight?

On my PPL checkride, the DPE asked for a short field landing with the target being the threshhold. I had been taught and always practiced with the 1,000-ft markers, but the only REAL difference is psychological, right?

 

[midlifeflyer]

On my PPL checkride, the DPE asked for a short field landing with the target being the threshhold. I had been taught and always practiced with the 1,000-ft markers, but the only REAL difference is psychological, right?

Yes, it's psychological. But it can be a big difference. I fly out of a 6,000' runway only a short hop from BQ1 where the wonderful Pik n Pig restaurant is located. Despite having done the simulated short field landing on the 1,000' markers, a lot of pilots hesitate about going into BQ1's ~2550' runway, especially if they have to come over the trees on runway 31 (the reason for the displaced threshold reducing the landing area).


Fortunately, the preferred runway at my home airport has a taxiway (A2) turnoff 1300' from the runway edge. So, since I'm not doing it to prep for a checkride, I tell the pilot that all I want them to do is turn off at A2 without heavy braking. It seems to convince them that they can do it and gives them something slightly more realistic to practice.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Fortunately, the preferred runway at my home airport has a taxiway (A2) turnoff 1300' from the runway edge. So, since I'm not doing it to prep for a checkride, I tell the pilot that all I want them to do is turn off at A2 without heavy braking. It seems to convince them that they can do it and gives them something slightly more realistic to practice.

That's exactly the way I was taught. Target the 1000' ft markers on a 4300ft runway, be able to pull off safely and smoothly into the taxiway at midfield.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's exactly the way I was taught. Target the 1000' ft markers on a 4300ft runway, be able to pull off safely and smoothly into the taxiway at midfield.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, I'm not talking about targeting the 1000' marker for touchdown. It's turning off the runway at A2 which is closer to being able to come to a stop on the 1,000' marker (the turnoff is just past the end of the 1,000' marker).

 

[MauleSkinner]

Of course, when you throw in a “real” short field* with real obstacles, the picture and psychological problems change some more.

It just keeps boiling down to the ACS not being a limiting document for training.

*definition subject to interpretation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Of course, when you throw in a “real” short field* with real obstacles, the picture and psychological problems change some more.

Definitely. This is the goal of my simulation. Cool looking to the right and left and looking up at trees.

Edit: better photo of the approach.