SPL vs PPL

[FlyingFarmer]

I am about 6-7 hours of flight training into getting my PPL at a part 61 flight school. Every minute I am not at school I spend working in our farm. My grandfather bought a Zenith 701 but never got his license to fly, so it was always my uncle and I flying it. As I’ve grown and realized what I want my future to look like, I realize I only really plan on using my license to fly our zenith locally. I would have no issue getting a medical, this is simply asking for another perspective, would it be unnecessary to spend the extra time and money for the PPL to never utilize the extra things I would get over a sport license?

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

All of the training requirements for Sport Pilot can be used later to help qualify for additional training to become a Private Pilot. So, there is no downside to getting the Sport Pilot certificate and perhaps deciding later to upgrade to a Private Pilot certificate.

 

[Dry Creek]

One thing to consider - if you are absolutely certain that you can pass the Third Class medical, go ahead and get that done. It will help to transition to Basic Med for your Private Pilot certification if you decide to follow that path later in life.
Just be certain that you can pass without issue. Not making the cut for medical will hinder your ability to fly under Sport Pilot Certification.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Just how much time does someone typically save going the S.P route? I know there is a significant difference in the minimum required, but how often does someone bang it out in 20 hours? I don't really think you get to skip that much stuff compared to the P.P.

 

[Half Fast]

Just how much time does someone typically save going the S.P route? I know there is a significant difference in the minimum required, but how often does someone bang it out in 20 hours? I don't really think you get to skip that much stuff compared to the P.P.

It's a fair point. Typically the most time-consuming task to learn is landings. Learning to land a light sport can take longer than a larger plane, so that might wash out some of the hours saved by not learning things like night flying. (I trained in a Tecnam LSA and the first time I landed a Cherokee it was like the plane had auto-land; much much easier than the Tecnam.) Instrument training is required for both PP and SP, but SP doesn't have a minimum amount of time. The SP XCs are shorter, both dual and solo, and there's no requirement for landings at a towered airport (though it can be added later).

I dunno; maybe SP training would save 10 hours over PP, but that will vary a lot depending on the student and could be more. Depending on the area and the school, that might be $1500 to $2000, plus saving a little by not needing to get a medical. Avoiding a two grand expenditure for something the student doesn't feel he needs probably makes sense, especially since it can be tacked on later if desired.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

I grew up flying around the farm, and I’d like to think I’m a little ahead of most students. My CFI said the only thing holding me back from soloing by September is my age, so I have to wait a couple more months. The biggest push for me to consider switching is time. With the lower hour requirement I should shoot for maybe 25-30 hours to get my license, so it’s a lot less time away from work.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just how much time does someone typically save going the S.P route? I know there is a significant difference in the minimum required, but how often does someone bang it out in 20 hours? I don't really think you get to skip that much stuff compared to the P.P.

How often does someone bang out a Private certificate in 40 hours?

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Instrument training is required for both PP and SP, but SP doesn't have a minimum amount of time.

Where did you find this? I assumed it would be but everything I’ve read doesn’t mention instrument flying

 

[Half Fast]

Where did you find this? I assumed it would be but everything I’ve read doesn’t mention instrument flying

Comes from the XC requirements. CFR 61.93(e)12

It doesn’t apply if you’re flying something slower than 87 knots (like a weight shift trike), but that’s a bit uncommon.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Comes from the XC requirements. CFR 61.93(e)12

It doesn’t apply if you’re flying something slower than 87 knots (like a weight shift trike), but that’s a bit uncommon.

My recollection is that Champs and Chiefs and Cubs (Oh my!) would fall into that category…and those aren’t “uncommon” in my mind.

 

[Half Fast]

My recollection is that Champs and Chiefs and Cubs (Oh my!) would fall into that category…and those aren’t “uncommon” in my mind.

There are quite a few being flown, certainly. Are they being used for SP training? I’m sure some are, but most of the SP training I’m aware of uses things like Tecnam LSAs and Skycatchers.

 

[Dana]

There are quite a few being flown, certainly. Are they being used for SP training? I’m sure some are, but most of the SP training I’m aware of uses things like Tecnam LSAs and Skycatchers.

My local FBO does SP training in a J-3.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Is the new MOSAIC proposal from last July seeming to be the final ruling on LSAs or is this just another suggestion to dream about (3000lb weight limit, retract and constant speed prop, higher max and stall speed, etc)

 

[Half Fast]

Is the new MOSAIC proposal from last July seeming to be the final ruling on LSAs or is this just another suggestion to dream about (3000lb weight limit, retract and constant speed prop, higher max and stall speed, etc)

That remains to be seen. The FAA moves at the speed of a herd of turtles chasing a flock of snails across a field of peanut butter.

 

[Clip4]

I am about 6-7 hours of flight training into getting my PPL at a part 61 flight school. Every minute I am not at school I spend working in our farm. My grandfather bought a Zenith 701 but never got his license to fly, so it was always my uncle and I flying it. As I’ve grown and realized what I want my future to look like, I realize I only really plan on using my license to fly our zenith locally. I would have no issue getting a medical, this is simply asking for another perspective, would it be unnecessary to spend the extra time and money for the PPL to never utilize the extra things I would get over a sport license?

It is not necessary to get a pilots license. These are all personal choices we make. I would never be happy with a SP, that doesn’t mean you won’t.

The bottom line if you opt for the private later, you will duplicate the time and $$$ for flight test preparation with the CFI for the practical test, duplicate the study time and $$$ for another written knowledge test, and duplicate the study time and $$$$ required for another practical test.

So the question. is it worth $4000 more now?

 

[Crashnburn]

You're young and have a lot of life ahead of you. There are a lot of things that you could encounter later that will make you want to get your PPL. If you are working around the farm, I'm sure an extra $4K is difficult to come by, but with inflation that $4K can easily grow into $8K. Look up the Law of 72. Of course, you have to balance your probable increase in earnings as your age, education, and experience increase.

At a bare minimum, instead of doing your cross countries to SPL standards, do them to PPL. Then you won't have to duplicate them if you decide to get your PPL.

 

[David-in-MD]

You're young and have a lot of life ahead of you. There are a lot of things that you could encounter later that will make you want to get your PPL. If you are working around the farm, I'm sure an extra $4K is difficult to come by, but with inflation that $4K can easily grow into $8K. Look up the Law of 72. Of course, you have to balance your probable increase in earnings as your age, education, and experience increase.

At a bare minimum, instead of doing your cross countries to SPL standards, do them to PPL. Then you won't have to duplicate them if you decide to get your PPL.

I’m 65, earned my Sport last year, and am awaiting the FAA to approve my class 3 so I can test for PPL: primarily to land after sunset and to pursue my IFR. I am buying a small Tecnam to test and train in. Interestingly, it was the medical which gave me the incentive to get my weight down and my health is the best it’s ever been. That proved the motivation. The only problem with the Sport certificate is there are only 2 Light Sport a/c to rent locally and one interpretation (the DPE has shared with the CFIs) of the Regs is that a Student Pilot can solo in a single engine a/c >1320 pounds, but NOT a Sport Pilot! And I can NEVER be a Student Pilot again! I’ve done training in a 152, 172, and Cherokee, but only with an instructor. My solo time (100+ hours) is all in an RV12 or Bristell (little Italian hot rod of a light sport!).

 

[Baked Potato]

I’m 65, earned my Sport last year, and am awaiting the FAA to approve my class 3 so I can test for PPL: primarily to land after sunset and to pursue my IFR. I am buying a small Tecnam to test and train in. Interestingly, it was the medical which gave me the incentive to get my weight down and my health is the best it’s ever been. That proved the motivation. The only problem with the Sport certificate is there are only 2 Light Sport a/c to rent locally and one interpretation (the DPE has shared with the CFIs) of the Regs is that a Student Pilot can solo in a single engine a/c >1320 pounds, but NOT a Sport Pilot! And I can NEVER be a Student Pilot again! I’ve done training in a 152, 172, and Cherokee, but only with an instructor. My solo time (100+ hours) is all in an RV12 or Bristell (little Italian hot rod of a light sport!).

Which airport are you training at? Not FDK by chance, is it?

(Also, the Bristell is Czech)

 

[sansoneservices]

I am about 6-7 hours of flight training into getting my PPL at a part 61 flight school. Every minute I am not at school I spend working in our farm. My grandfather bought a Zenith 701 but never got his license to fly, so it was always my uncle and I flying it. As I’ve grown and realized what I want my future to look like, I realize I only really plan on using my license to fly our zenith locally. I would have no issue getting a medical, this is simply asking for another perspective, would it be unnecessary to spend the extra time and money for the PPL to never utilize the extra things I would get over a sport license?

I started with light sport to save money. A year later I upgraded to ppl.. very logical

 

[midlifeflyer]

and one interpretation (the DPE has shared with the CFIs) of the Regs is that a Student Pilot can solo in a single engine a/c >1320 pounds, but NOT a Sport Pilot!

Huh? Of course a student pilot with at least a third class medical can solo in a non-LSA.

Is this DPE saying a student pilot with no medical can solo in a non-LSA single? Ive seen a few weird Sport Pilot interpretations lately, but this would be No 1!

 

[MauleSkinner]

Huh? Of course a student pilot with at least a third class medical can solo in a non-LSA.

Is this DPE saying a student pilot with no medical can solo in a non-LSA single? Ive seen a few weird Sport Pilot interpretations lately, but this would be No 1!

I think the DPE is saying a Sport Pilot can no longer get a solo endorsement for a non-LSA, even with a medical.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the DPE is saying a Sport Pilot can no longer get a solo endorsement for a non-LSA, even with a medical.

Aha! Thanks. But I wonder whether anyone has used 61.31(d)(2) to permit a sport pilot with medical to solo a non-LSA.

To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—​

***​

(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.​

 

[Tools]

@midlifeflyer that’s what I was thinking. Like a PIC endorsement for multi, etc.

 

[midlifeflyer]

@midlifeflyer that’s what I was thinking. Like a PIC endorsement for multi, etc.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't apply.

There is, however, the potential problem of a DPE (perhaps even on the direction of a local FSDO) disagreeing and rejecting the solo flights without some positive direction from AFS-800 or the Chief Counsel. Which kinds sounds like what @David-in-MD is dealing with.

 

[David-in-MD]

Huh? Of course a student pilot with at least a third class medical can solo in a non-LSA.

Is this DPE saying a student pilot with no medical can solo in a non-LSA single? Ive seen a few weird Sport Pilot interpretations lately, but this would be No 1!

No: he’s saying as a SPORT pilot (none of the CFIs mentioned with or without a 3rd class) I am not, nor will I ever AGAIN be a student pilot. And the regs do not address SPORT pilots!

None of the 15 exceptions in FAR §61.3(c)(2) authorize a Sport pilot with a valid driver’s license to solo in a non LSA aircraft [(xiii) Is exercising the privileges of a student, recreational or private pilot certificate for operations conducted under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i) and holds a U.S. driver's license;] Some disagree, but absent an authorization….?

Interestingly, NONE of the 10 requirements for a Private Pilot Certificate in FAR §61.103 mention a medical certificate, and that’s not the issue. But it does say that as the holder of a sport certificate I can test for the private pilot certificate [§61.103 (j) Hold a U.S. student pilot certificate, sport pilot certificate, or recreational pilot certificate.].

Interpretation, or extrapolation? I’d love to see where I can fly a 152, AA1, AA5, 172, or even a Tomahawk! As it is, I’m buying a Tecnam P92 (S-LSA), will test for PPL in it, and in it train and practice for my IFR.

 

[flyingron]

61.23 very much requires a medical for taking a checkride unless you hit one of the exceptions (basic med or light sport).

There is an ambiguity in the regs where sport pilots soloing non-LSA. 61.23(3)(i) indeed needs to have sport pilot certificate added to the list. I'll work on that. I just sent in my petition for rulemaking on that. I'm so far 1 and 1 on such petitions. I won on getting night fixed. I got stymied on an change to 61.55 that was made without specifically being mentioned in the proposed rulemaking that renumbered the subsections and took away an exemption for safety pilots. I stopped fighting that when the legal counsel decided that 61.55 doesn't apply to safety pilots in part 91/single pilot aircraft.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Aha! Thanks. But I wonder whether anyone has used 61.31(d)(2) to permit a sport pilot with medical to solo a non-LSA.

I’ve always seen that as “additional” category and class, but it does say “appropriate,” and so the question would seem to revolve around the definition of “appropriate” rather than “category and class.”

But realistically one can complete all of the remaining solo requirements for a Private certificate as a SP in an LSA, and get the remaining dual instruction in a non-LSA as necessary, so do you actually need a solo endorsement to take the checkride?

 

[DMD3.]

Just be certain that you can pass without issue. Not making the cut for medical will hinder your ability to fly under Sport Pilot Certification.

Off topic, but if you were doubtful about passing a flight physical, could you get a non-flight physical (or perhaps a DOT physical) and if you received unfavorable results, just don’t attempt to obtain/renew the flight medical?

 

[flyingron]

A non-flight physical or even a DOT one would neither meaning anything for flying nor would it be a predictor as to whether you could pass an FAA medical.

 

[midlifeflyer]

so do you actually need a solo endorsement to take the checkride?

If you have access to an SLA, no problem. You can do all the requirements and take the private checkride in an SLA. But as I read the OP, access is limited.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Off topic, but if you were doubtful about passing a flight physical, could you get a non-flight physical (or perhaps a DOT physical) and if you received unfavorable results, just don’t attempt to obtain/renew the flight medical?

That won't help unless the physician is savvy on the big book of FAA requirements.

If doubtful of passing a flight physical, the best solution is a consultation with an AME. That means no application being pulled up from MedXpress.

 

[DMD3.]

A non-flight physical or even a DOT one would neither meaning anything for flying nor would it be a predictor as to whether you could pass an FAA medical.

As a CDL holder, I get DOT physicals every 2 years. They don’t seem to be much different from flight physicals. But in any event, if something were to come in the DOT physical such as diabetes, that’s when I would not get a flight physical (diabetes doesn’t automatically disqualify a person from obtaining a DOT physical).

 

[midlifeflyer]

and so the question would seem to revolve around the definition of “appropriate”

I think that part's easy. The "appropriate" training is pretty well spelled out in the requirements for each certificate and rating. In this case, verify satisfactory performance of the solo and solo cross country requirements.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I think that part's easy. The "appropriate" training is pretty well spelled out in the requirements for each certificate and rating. In this case, verify satisfactory performance of the solo and solo cross country requirements.

we’re talking past each other.

In order to solo in category and class, you have to have instruction “appropriate to the certification level, category, and class…”

Since “category and class” is the same for a Technam LSA and a Cessna 152, what is the difference in presolo training requirements appropriate to SP vs PP? Is it sufficient to require (or allow) a solo endorsement for a SP in a 152?

 

[flyingron]

As a CDL holder, I get DOT physicals every 2 years. They don’t seem to be much different from flight physicals. But in any event, if something were to come in the DOT physical such as diabetes, that’s when I would not get a flight physical (diabetes doesn’t automatically disqualify a person from obtaining a DOT physical).

As far as the poking and prodding goes, they're hard to distinguish. But the DOT treatment of various conditions is extremely limited compared to the FAA. The have roughly the same standard for hearing and vision, but diabetes and seizures are handled differently (DOT actually does diabetes better than the FAA in my estimation). They don't address lots of other things the FAA gets bent over.

 

[midlifeflyer]

we’re talking past each other.

We’re just parsing it differently.

 

[Dana]

A pilot can "exercise the privileges" of a lower class pilot. Typically that means a PP or higher exercising SP privileges (flying a LSA without a medical), but it seems a SP could similarly exercise student pilot privileges when soloing (with CFI endorsement) a non-LSA if he has a medical. Similarly, an ATP with a medical old enough to revert to class 3 privileges can still fly a small airplane for non commercial purposes.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The only problem with the Sport certificate is there are only 2 Light Sport a/c to rent locally and one interpretation (the DPE has shared with the CFIs) of the Regs is that a Student Pilot can solo in a single engine a/c >1320 pounds, but NOT a Sport Pilot! And I can NEVER be a Student Pilot again! I’ve done training in a 152, 172, and Cherokee, but only with an instructor. My solo time (100+ hours) is all in an RV12 or Bristell (little Italian hot rod of a light sport!).

So what you're saying is that you want to solo in a non-LSA aircraft, but you do not yet have a Class 3 medical, nor have you ever held a Class 3 medical. Correct?

No: he’s saying as a SPORT pilot (none of the CFIs mentioned with or without a 3rd class) I am not, nor will I ever AGAIN be a student pilot. And the regs do not address SPORT pilots!

None of the 15 exceptions in FAR §61.3(c)(2) authorize a Sport pilot with a valid driver’s license to solo in a non LSA aircraft [(xiii) Is exercising the privileges of a student, recreational or private pilot certificate for operations conducted under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i) and holds a U.S. driver's license;] Some disagree, but absent an authorization….?

Interestingly, NONE of the 10 requirements for a Private Pilot Certificate in FAR §61.103 mention a medical certificate, and that’s not the issue. But it does say that as the holder of a sport certificate I can test for the private pilot certificate [§61.103 (j) Hold a U.S. student pilot certificate, sport pilot certificate, or recreational pilot certificate.].

Interpretation, or extrapolation? I’d love to see where I can fly a 152, AA1, AA5, 172, or even a Tomahawk! As it is, I’m buying a Tecnam P92 (S-LSA), will test for PPL in it, and in it train and practice for my IFR.

This is an interesting case to examine. Starting with 61.3(c), (1) says you need a medical to serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, while (2) gives the exceptions to (1).

It would seem that, since a Student Pilot can solo a non-LSA aircraft under BasicMed (61.113(i)), that 61.3(c)(2)(xiii) should also include "Sport Pilot" and it does not. It would appear to be an oversight on the part of the FAA, but I think the DPE is correct that that's what it says right now.

However, your solo time in an LSA does count, provided it meets the requirements of 61.109(a)(5), so do you really need to solo the non-LSA?

 

[midlifeflyer]

A pilot can "exercise the privileges" of a lower class pilot. Typically that means a PP or higher exercising SP privileges (flying a LSA without a medical), but it seems a SP could similarly exercise student pilot privileges when soloing (with CFI endorsement) a non-LSA if he has a medical. Similarly, an ATP with a medical old enough to revert to class 3 privileges can still fly a small airplane for non commercial purposes.

So there’s really no need for 61.31(d) since even an ATP can be treated as a student pilot?

Can I, for example, sign off a private pilot for only solo in a complex airplane?

 

[midlifeflyer]

However, your solo time in an LSA does count, provided it meets the requirements of 61.109(a)(5), so do you really need to solo the non-LSA?

You are right. The problem is the “provided.” How long were those cross countries? The sport “long” cross country requirement is half the length of the private one. Any solos to a towered airport? That is not a sport requirement and requires an additional endorsement.