Any Hunters in Here?

I, for one, am not sorry the Army did not adopt the AR10. When I was a member of the Golden Gun Club (many decades ago) we had a member who was a class 3 dealer and brought a fully automatic AR10 to the range and let some of us try it. I remembered how the M16A1 threw brass in my face when I qualified with it 51 years ago ( I shoot a rifle or shotgun left handed ), so I shot the first round or so semi-automatic from the shoulder and got brass in my face. I could hold an M16 on target and empty a 20 round magazine from the hip, so I figured I could do the same with the AR10. Nope. After 3 rounds I got off the trigger as I was about to fire rounds other than on the range. I handed the rifle to a buddy who was right handed. He put the selector on full auto and shot from the shoulder. The first round went in the 50 yard backstop. The second round went in the 100 yard backstop and the 3rd round went in the 200 yard backstop when he got off the trigger. Like the M14, that thing was an anti-aircraft gun on full auto. No thanks!!!
 
Ghery said:
I, for one, am not sorry the Army did not adopt the AR10. When I was a member of the Golden Gun Club (many decades ago) we had a member who was a class 3 dealer and brought a fully automatic AR10 to the range and let some of us try it. I remembered how the M16A1 threw brass in my face when I qualified with it 51 years ago ( I shoot a rifle or shotgun left handed ), so I shot the first round or so semi-automatic from the shoulder and got brass in my face. I could hold an M16 on target and empty a 20 round magazine from the hip, so I figured I could do the same with the AR10. Nope. After 3 rounds I got off the trigger as I was about to fire rounds other than on the range. I handed the rifle to a buddy who was right handed. He put the selector on full auto and shot from the shoulder. The first round went in the 50 yard backstop. The second round went in the 100 yard backstop and the 3rd round went in the 200 yard backstop when he got off the trigger. Like the M14, that thing was an anti-aircraft gun on full auto. No thanks!!!
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Did the AR10 have an especially short barrel? Mine isn't full-auto, but I feel that the AK47s I've shot are harder to control with rapid semi-auto than the AR10 (mine is .308 with 20" barrel) despite being of similar weight. Having the brass ejecting toward you would definitely not be fun though, lol. There are a few uppers made for Southpaw shooters, but I (being a Southpaw) have always shot guns/pool right-handed. I'm likely right-eye dominant so it came more naturally that way.
 
Ghery said:
I, for one, am not sorry the Army did not adopt the AR10. When I was a member of the Golden Gun Club (many decades ago) we had a member who was a class 3 dealer and brought a fully automatic AR10 to the range and let some of us try it. I remembered how the M16A1 threw brass in my face when I qualified with it 51 years ago ( I shoot a rifle or shotgun left handed ), so I shot the first round or so semi-automatic from the shoulder and got brass in my face. I could hold an M16 on target and empty a 20 round magazine from the hip, so I figured I could do the same with the AR10. Nope. After 3 rounds I got off the trigger as I was about to fire rounds other than on the range. I handed the rifle to a buddy who was right handed. He put the selector on full auto and shot from the shoulder. The first round went in the 50 yard backstop. The second round went in the 100 yard backstop and the 3rd round went in the 200 yard backstop when he got off the trigger. Like the M14, that thing was an anti-aircraft gun on full auto. No thanks!!!
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SoonerAviator said:
Did the AR10 have an especially short barrel? Mine isn't full-auto, but I feel that the AK47s I've shot are harder to control with rapid semi-auto than the AR10 (mine is .308 with 20" barrel) despite being of similar weight. Having the brass ejecting toward you would definitely not be fun though, lol. There are a few uppers made for Southpaw shooters, but I (being a Southpaw) have always shot guns/pool right-handed. I'm likely right-eye dominant so it came more naturally that way.
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The Army kind of did adopt the AR10 in the form of the M110 sniper rifle, but much later obviously. The M14, in its accurized M1A and M21 configurations was a good rifle, but the M14 was never a good assault rifle. In fact, I believe the M21 is still in service to this day but it's role has largely been replaced by the M110, which, I understand is inherently more accurate.

I've never seen an AR10, much less shot one, but I can't imagine it would be very controllable in full auto. Even the M60 (and for that matter the M240) was like holding a jackhammer to your shoulder when you fired it despite the fact it weighed 23 pounds. I earned my German Army Schutzensnur using the G1 (HK 91 in 7.62 NATO) and the MG3 (MG42 also in 7.62 NATO.) I didn't care for the G1 because it wasn't very controllable in full auto even though we didn't fire them full auto during qualification. I didn't like the MG3 because the cyclic rate of fire was too high for good controllability. And I could drive tacks with an M60.

I kind of feel like the AK vs. M16 is like an apples to oranges comparison wise. Our arms room stocked a few AKM's and we would take them to the range. Ballistically, the AK round is in between a 5.56 and 7.62 mm NATO round, but I think that the tendency for it to have muzzle climb in full auto is more a function of the higher recoil axis.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Did the AR10 have an especially short barrel? Mine isn't full-auto, but I feel that the AK47s I've shot are harder to control with rapid semi-auto than the AR10 (mine is .308 with 20" barrel) despite being of similar weight. Having the brass ejecting toward you would definitely not be fun though, lol. There are a few uppers made for Southpaw shooters, but I (being a Southpaw) have always shot guns/pool right-handed. I'm likely right-eye dominant so it came more naturally that way.
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Getting brass in your face was not fun at all. Fortunately, the military realized that about 1 out of 7 shooters is left handed. Starting with the M16A2 they added the block of metal behind the ejection port that is universal in AR15s today. I'm sure glad that my AR15 has one. It's been many decades since I've shot an AR10, but IIRC it didn't have a short barrel.

I confuse people now and then. I shoot a pistol right handed, but with my left eye. And I have to try something both ways to see what works. I play ball right handed and can imagine nothing more awkward than throwing a ball with my left hand. I write and eat left handed. My dad was totally left handed. His favorite way of putting it was "Everyone is born right handed. Only a select few overcome the handicap!" I miss him.
 
Where or how are you guys hunting that you need that level of accuracy? I live in the part of iowa that I would be able to watch my dog run away for two days with a good telescope and still have no problem stalking up close enough to a deer that I can hit it within a palm sized area of accuracy with a smooth bore flintlock.
 
Ghery said:
Getting brass in your face was not fun at all. Fortunately, the military realized that about 1 out of 7 shooters is left handed. Starting with the M16A2 they added the block of metal behind the ejection port that is universal in AR15s today. I'm sure glad that my AR15 has one. It's been many decades since I've shot an AR10, but IIRC it didn't have a short barrel.

I confuse people now and then. I shoot a pistol right handed, but with my left eye. And I have to try something both ways to see what works. I play ball right handed and can imagine nothing more awkward than throwing a ball with my left hand. I write and eat left handed. My dad was totally left handed. His favorite way of putting it was "Everyone is born right handed. Only a select few overcome the handicap!" I miss him.
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I think that the case deflector was a good idea, but everything else about the A2 blows goat penis. They finally got it right with the M4.
 
Flatiowa said:
Where or how are you guys hunting that you need that level of accuracy? I live in the part of iowa that I would be able to watch my dog run away for two days with a good telescope and still have no problem stalking up close enough to a deer that I can hit it within a palm sized area of accuracy with a smooth bore flintlock.
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Considering accuracy is all about repetitive results, when you’re killing an animal it’s kind of important, especially if you’re not shooting from a stable position.

On our lease, it’s unusual to shoot something that’s not between 85 and 150 yds. We kicked two guys off a few years ago because they wounded and could not recover a deer each.

Both were shooting fine rifles with suitable optics and could make small groups on paper but when it came down to doing business they just couldn’t for whatever reason.
 
100 yards is my ethical limit for taking a shot when hunting, even when I used to use my .303 British engfield mk III, to many variables (adrenaline pumping when pulling the trigger on a trophy rack buck being one of them). I held with that distance when using a hawken, but reduced it to 75yards when I switched to using my .62 caliber fusil flintlock. I dabbled a bit in long range scoped shooting, but I found iron open sites (with a lot of practice using them) are extremely better for hunting than scopes that are tuned in on a bed rest. To each their own, but I pheasant hunted and shot trap since I was a very young kid and learning to lead the target was important, being able to gauge distance, direction and velocity of the target was important. A nonmoving standing broadside at the scopes sighted in range hunt might be realistic in a payed for guided “hunt” on a fenced in hunting farm, but in my experience hunting public hunting and family owned farm ground that “perfect shot” never exists and you need to be able to accurately hit your point of aim shooting freehand/no rests or benches, sometimes with a moving target, and scopes just don’t work well for that. I also highly recommend shooting with both eyes open, it was drilled into me as a kid learning to shoot, “Keep both eyes open when you aim and until after it fires!” By my dad and he was right. You loose depth perception when you close one, and if you have closed both before the bullet leaves the barrel it will really hurt your accuracy (unless you’ve got it so bedded into a fancy bench rest that the gun won’t move).
 
TCABM said:
Considering accuracy is all about repetitive results, when you’re killing an animal it’s kind of important, especially if you’re not shooting from a stable position.

On our lease, it’s unusual to shoot something that’s not between 85 and 150 yds. We kicked two guys off a few years ago because they wounded and could not recover a deer each.

Both were shooting fine rifles with suitable optics and could make small groups on paper but when it came down to doing business they just couldn’t for whatever reason.
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Not to be pedantic but….I’m going to be pedantic. LOL
Precision is about repeatability. Accuracy is proximity from the desired impact point. For the most part, precision is a property of the rifle/ammunition combination whereas accuracy is dependent upon the monkey pulling the trigger. I get your point, you must have a certain degree of precision in a firearm to shoot with accuracy.
 
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In example, the first target was holding dead center during load testing and not compensating for wind. The second target was compensating for wind by adding windage on the scope (600yds):


IMG_1181.png IMG_1177.png

The left target shows good precision but poor accuracy. The right target shows good accuracy and precision.
 
robin ardoin said:
In example, the first target was holding dead center during load testing and not compensating for wind. The second target was compensating for wind by adding windage on the scope (600yds):


View attachment 134254 View attachment 134255

The left target shows good precision but poor accuracy. The right target shows good accuracy and precision.
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That is darn good your combination seems to work very well.
 
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Flatiowa said:
Where or how are you guys hunting that you need that level of accuracy? I live in the part of iowa that I would be able to watch my dog run away for two days with a good telescope and still have no problem stalking up close enough to a deer that I can hit it within a palm sized area of accuracy with a smooth bore flintlock.
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Where I hunt, in the west, many times it’s impossible to stalk closer. If I can get prone and conditions are right, 700-800 yard shots are easily done. You must also chose the right bullets and have enough velocity to expand them.
You also better have an accurate rifle and be able to shoot with good precision. My rifles must be able to shoot 1/2 moa or better with my reloads. Every rifle I shoot has been built by a gunsmith.
 
This is actually making me consider getting into long range shooting. Not for hunting, but just as a hobby shooting paper. 7mm Remington magnum is the most accurate long range gun In my wheel house but that is using factory loads. I can see a correlation between extreme distance shooting with hand loaded cartridges and what I like about blackpowder. Developing a good consistent load combination tuned to the individual rifles dynamics/harmonics to make it really work to its top potential.
 
Flatiowa said:
This is actually making me consider getting into long range shooting. Not for hunting, but just as a hobby shooting paper. 7mm Remington magnum is the most accurate long range gun In my wheel house but that is using factory loads. I can see a correlation between extreme distance shooting with hand loaded cartridges and what I like about blackpowder. Developing a good consistent load combination tuned to the individual rifles dynamics/harmonics to make it really work to its top potential.
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Give me your location and I’ll find the closest match that you can observe. Be prepared, it is like crack. One taste and it is over with. :biggrin:
 
Des Moines Rifle and Revolver club hosts 600yd high power rifle matches at their range in Van Meter. F-class, a division of HP rifle is what I shoot. We fire from a prone position. Very welcoming to new or potential shooters. I shot our nationals at Lodi, WI this year (close to Madison). Very active club there with a 1000yd range.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I think that the case deflector was a good idea, but everything else about the A2 blows goat penis. They finally got it right with the M4.
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The A1 was the latest M16 that I've shot, and it's been about 50 years since that.
 
Ghery said:
The A1 was the latest M16 that I've shot, and it's been about 50 years since that.
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Same here. Qualified with a clapped-out M16A1 in Basic 45 years ago, never so much as saw another round of live ammo until I got out five years later.
 
Ghery said:
The A1 was the latest M16 that I've shot, and it's been about 50 years since that.
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I had an A1 most of my time too but the A2's were adopted just before I got out. Longer, heavier, three round burst instead of full auto... no thanks.
 
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