GNS430W and 530W - Failing to suspend when in a hold... how to fix the result

[robertb]

Hello,
A buddy of mine is working on his IR. His plane is equipped with a Garmin GNS430W. While the goal is to prevent a certain problem from occurring, I know (from personal experience) that it likely will occur. Knowing how to fix the pilot's error is the topic here.

Let's say you are doing the VOR-A approach at Ramona Airport (KRNM) for checkride purposes. A DPE may ask the pilot to hold at JLI for a lap or two before making the approach.

With the approach loaded into the flight plan and making the proper entry to get establish inbound, a pilot may forget to hit the OBS button on the GPS to suspend waypoint sequencing (been there, done that). So when flying inbound on the JLI R-090 (heading 240) and passing over JLI, the GPS will sequence to FEXDE. While the pilot is making the left 180 degree turn to stay in the holding pattern and realizing their error, is there a way to reactivate the racetrack holding pattern? I tried it the other day and all I could get it to do was give me a suggested holding pattern entry which took me back directly over JLI instead of allowing me to continue on the outbound 060 heading.



I hope that makes sense as it is not easy to explain in text.

Thanks in advance gang!

 

[MauleSkinner]

Fly outbound, turn inbound, and then reactivate the hold in the GPS.

 

[robertb]

Fly outbound, turn inbound, and then reactivate the hold in the GPS.

Thanks. That's what I tried but it didn't allow me to remain in the hold. It had me turn back to fly directly over the VOR again and with a suggested pattern entry. I was hoping to get the holding racetrack as an active leg. Perhaps I wasn't in a location relative to the holding pattern which would allow that?

Edit - I answered too quickly. Are you saying don't activate the hold until you are established on the inbound leg? I was hoping to get the racetrack back before that point.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Are you saying don't activate the hold until you are established on the inbound leg?

Yes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Edit - I answered too quickly. Are you saying don't activate the hold until you are established on the inbound leg? I was hoping to get the racetrack back before that point.

Well, you could just treat it as a random hold - a necessary and testable skill. Go direct to the holding fix and, in OBS mode, turn the CDI to the inbound course (or use CourseToWaypoint). But activating the hold once inbound again is probably a bit less workload.

An ounce of prevention ("when I get to Julian, I will turn outbound to XXX degrees, remain at 6700', and touch the OBS key") is worth a pound of cure and that type of self-talk will make everything slow down significantly in every phase of flight.

 

[MikeNY]

Agreed. If forgot to push OBS for SUSP before JLI and need to continue in hold: solution as previously suggested.
After JLI, turn left onto outbound leg (060 corrected for winds), re-select approach, ignore hold entry depiction, fly the rest of holding pattern, and to continue in hold, OBS to SUSPend sequencing.

If helpful to consider ...
This pilot error might not be 'uncommon', but should not happen on a checkride for IR.
If your buddy could forget to push OBS to SUSP (after DPE asked for a few laps in 'hold') ... consider more practice.
For example, the scenario can be practiced using either a simulator or standalone, Garmin gns430W trainer (for Windows PC).

If interested, GNS trainer illustrations attached.
-keep in mind there may be several ways to accomplish this in GNS navigators.
-Note GNS trainer is old but it appears, so is Ramona's VOR/DME-A approach

p.s. For useful tips, your buddy might check Mike Jesch GNS430/530 youtube videos.
For example, Part IV demonstrates using Garmin GNS trainer to 'remain in the hold'.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If helpful to consider ...
This pilot error might not be 'uncommon', but should not happen on a checkride for IR.

As an examiner, I wouldn’t worry so much about it happening as how much the applicant flounders around the sky while reprogramming the automation 3 times because he can’t get it to do what he wants.

 

[Larry Korona]

Well, you could just treat it as a random hold - a necessary and testable skill. Go direct to the holding fix and, in OBS mode, turn the CDI to the inbound course (or use CourseToWaypoint). But activating the hold once inbound again is probably a bit less workload.

An ounce of prevention ("when I get to Julian, I will turn outbound to XXX degrees, remain at 6700', and touch the OBS key") is worth a pound of cure and that type of self-talk will make everything slow down significantly in every phase of flight.

Is the best practice is to hit the OBS button BEFORE Julian and not AT or AFTER Julian?

 

[robertb]

Is the best practice is to hit the OBS button BEFORE Julian and not AT or AFTER Julian?

Yes, OBS needs to be pushed prior to reaching JLI. The waypoint sequencing must be suspended before reaching JLI or the next waypoint (FEXDE) will become the active waypoint.

 

[robertb]

Thanks everyone. All very good info! And I'm glad I was not missing something too obvious.

 

[luvflyin]

Well, you could just treat it as a random hold - a necessary and testable skill. Go direct to the holding fix and, in OBS mode, turn the CDI to the inbound course (or use CourseToWaypoint). But activating the hold once inbound again is probably a bit less workload.

An ounce of prevention ("when I get to Julian, I will turn outbound to XXX degrees, remain at 6700', and touch the OBS key") is worth a pound of cure and that type of self-talk will make everything slow down significantly in every phase of flight.

Would this be a situation where just ‘reloading’ the approach might be the easiest solution?

 

[Clip4]

This is a VOR approach. Hit the VLOC button, twist the OBS and fly the hold.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Would this be a situation where just ‘reloading’ the approach might be the easiest solution?

Great question. I think "easiest" is often in the mind of the beholder, and may depend on other parts of your SOP. These two ways have the same net effect. In both cases, once I realize I screwed it up, I turn outbound.

Activating the hold once inbound:

1. Press to cursor​

2. Scroll up two places to the holding fix. You can shortcut the workload a bit by scrolling up while outbound and doing step 3 once inbound.​

3. Direct Enter Enter. You can shortcut this by doing it when ready to turn inbound. It won't intercept the inbound, but you will be in the holding area.​

​

Reloading the approach:

1. Hit PROC​

2. Scroll to Select approach. Enter.​

3. Enter (the current approach will be pre-selected)​

4. Enter to reselect the fix.​

5. Scroll to "Yes" and hit Enter to fly the course reversal. Enter.​

6. Enter to activate it.​

As with reactivating the hold, this can be finished when ready to turn inbound, with the same result.

But on the same theme, there's a faster one.

1. Hit PROC.​

2. Enter to Activate Approach.​

3. Enter to confirm it's what you want to do.​

Remember that "Activate Approach" always brings you to the selected transition. The catch might be that you selected a transition to bring you to the hold.

The first way works best for me. Part of that is that I don't like the potential gotcha in #3. But the bigger part is that my SOP is to keep the GPS on the Flight Plan Page rather than the Map.

 

[RussR]

Can you press the FPL button, scroll up to the hold, and Menu - Activate Leg? Or does that option disappear once you've exited? I haven't actually tried this before.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Can you press the FPL button, scroll up to the hold, and Menu - Activate Leg? Or does that option disappear once you've exited? I haven't actually tried this before.

Yes, that will also work. Very well in fact.

1. Press to cursor​

2. Scroll up two the hold.​

3. Menu.​

4. Activate leg. In this case it will actually prompt to activate holding pattern.​

An advantage over the other methods is that if you do it when ready to turn inbound, it will intercept the inbound course rather than fly direct to the holding fix.

 

[robertb]

Yes, that will also work. Very well in fact.

1. Press to cursor​

2. Scroll up two the hold.​

3. Menu.​

4. Activate leg. In this case it will actually prompt to activate holding pattern.​

An advantage over the other methods is that if you do it when ready to turn inbound, it will intercept the inbound course rather than fly direct to the holding fix.

Oh, I like this idea and hadn't thought of that. I'll give that a whir. Thank you!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh, I like this idea and hadn't thought of that. I'll give that a whir. Thank you!

One of the things you learn about these units, especially in terms of IFR tasks, is that there are a variety of techniques to accomplish a goal. The best thing we can do is settle on one which strikes us subjectively as (a) the most intuitive and (b) the most repeatable, which usually equals the one we are most likely to remember when we get into a pinch.

So, for example, @luvflyin mentioned reloading the approach (which is exactly the same as loading the approach the first time). Yes, it's a bit more buttonology for this task. But it is also a technique you will use regularly for a wide variety of tasks so, once integrated it becomes a Swiss knife. ATC switched up the approach. ATC promises vectors to final (and you are one of those who uses VTF) and then sends you to a fix that doesn't appear on your flight plan because you used VTF. ATC says to expect straight in from an IF, so you remove the hold, and then you are instructed to hold as published there. You basically screwed it up in some other way (like your post) and need to reset. The thing about all of those is that they happen in real life and they can all be fixed the same way.

That also happens to be true for "activate leg." When I teach GNS, I refer to the "Miracle of the Menu Button"

 

[wilkersk]

Along the same lines: one problem I've run into is, while doing practice approaches, you're holding at the MAP and you want to pick up your clearance for the next leg. You're stuck clearing the active flight plan (and cancelling the hold). If you're next leg is short it makes for a pretty hectic couple of minutes for single pilot IFR (safety pilot is eyes out and not an instrument pilot). Anyone got any tricks for this?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Along the same lines: one problem I've run into is, while doing practice approaches, you're holding at the MAP and you want to pick up your clearance for the next leg. You're stuck clearing the active flight plan (and cancelling the hold). If you're next leg is short it makes for a pretty hectic couple of minutes for single pilot IFR (safety pilot is eyes out and not an instrument pilot). Anyone got any tricks for this?

One way is to set it up in the Flight Plan Catalog. Another is to put the first fix at the end of your flight plan. In either case, once getting your new clearance, you can ask ATC for time to set it up.

Ie… “can you give us a vector while we set up our avionics.”

 

[wilkersk]

...In either case, once getting your new clearance, you can ask ATC for time to set it up.

Ie… “can you give us a vector while we set up our avionics.”

That's probably better than trying to hand fly a 1 minute holding pattern while entering the new FP in the Garmin.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's probably better than trying to hand fly a 1 minute holding pattern while entering the new FP in the Garmin.

Sure. With an AP its not a big deal, but straight and level is nice without one.

 

[Ryan F.]

I've seen this error a dozen times or more on practical tests. Definitely one to avoid, but my view is that it's recoverable - if the applicant continues the hold entry while remaining in protected airspace. It's some knob-twisting/button pushing while maintaining an instrument scan. I've seen a bit more success with reverting to OBS mode and spinning the inbound course, simply because it's the equivalent of moving "down" a level of automation. It's always possible to re-load the approach after things have stabilized a bit.

Bottom line, the applicant buys a problem to solve when they make this mistake and it's completely up to them to demonstrate their ability to correct it. If they can't, it will result in a Notice of Disapproval.

 

[robertb]

That's probably better than trying to hand fly a 1 minute holding pattern while entering the new FP in the Garmin.

You can ask ATC for longer holding legs too.

 

[bbchien]

Yes, that will also work. Very well in fact.

1. Press to cursor​

2. Scroll up two the hold.​

3. Menu.​

4. Activate leg. In this case it will actually prompt to activate holding pattern.​

An advantage over the other methods is that if you do it when ready to turn inbound, it will intercept the inbound course rather than fly direct to the holding fix.

I prefer this one. Fewer button strokes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've seen this error a dozen times or more on practical tests. Definitely one to avoid, but my view is that it's recoverable - if the applicant continues the hold entry while remaining in protected airspace. It's some knob-twisting/button pushing while maintaining an instrument scan. I've seen a bit more success with reverting to OBS mode and spinning the inbound course, simply because it's the equivalent of moving "down" a level of automation. It's always possible to re-load the approach after things have stabilized a bit.

Bottom line, the applicant buys a problem to solve when they make this mistake and it's completely up to them to demonstrate their ability to correct it. If they can't, it will result in a Notice of Disapproval.

...and it's not the only error. I'm not sending people for instrument rides but I am sometimes asked to do some of the 3 hour prep/mock checkride. Since mistakes do happen - both on the checkride and in real life, error recovery techniques can be the difference between pass and fail, so I usually include at least one task where I've seen common errors during recurrent training.

One of the reasons I like reloading is what I mentioned - it covers a bunch of different problems. One such pilot called me after his checkride to say he almost failed a task because he made an approach loading mistake and got confused. Then he heard me in his ear, "Just reload the approach."

 

[midlifeflyer]

I prefer this one. Fewer button strokes.

I like it too.

 

[Joseph Hann]

I would trade the 430 for a nice new IFD 440. It's a much nicer unit with a lot of features the gns doesn't have.

 

[WDD]

Just remember, when you're done with your hold and want to shoot the approach, go back and "Activate to Vectors".

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just remember, when you're done with your hold and want to shoot the approach, go back and "Activate to Vectors".

Can you explain why? I might have missed something in the thread.

Unless you have hit OBS to suspend sequencing, with any of the methods discussed, once inbound it will automatically sequence to the next leg. And if you did hit OBS to remain in the hold for several turns, just tap it again to resume sequencing.

(I’m not zealous about it with others, but if I activate VTF on any GPS, it means I screwed something up)

 

[WDD]

As I recall if you’ve reset to make it guide you through the PT/ Hold, it will want to keep doing that.

Assume you’ve flown the hold a few times. Now you need to unhold and fly approach. An easy way with few button clicks is to just “Load and Activate Vectors”.

I’ve exited the hold and entered the approach a few times in the past where I wasn’t getting the glide slope. Loading and activating VTF at that point seems to reset things.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As I recall if you’ve reset to make it guide you through the PT/ Hold, it will want to keep doing that.

Assume you’ve flown the hold a few times. Now you need to unhold and fly approach. An easy way with few button clicks is to just “Load and Activate Vectors”.

An easier way is to tap the exact same button that suspended automatic sequencing and allowed you to fly the hold multiple times.

Yes, a whole bunch of other stuff will accomplish the same with more button than one. But since we learned that the OBS button is used to suspend automatic sequencing, why not use it to resume automatic sequencing?

This is an example of how it works. Using the OBS key. I'm curious what you see as the advantage of using VTF instead.

Like I said, I'm not zealous about this stuff. If someone does this during an IPC, so long as it actually accomplishes the result, I'm happy. The most I'll do is try to set up a scenario where it might cause a problem.

Just a question. On a published missed approach, when the "SUSP" annunciation comes up, do you (a) tap the OBS key or (b) activate the leg to the MAPH or (c) hit Direct?

 

[robertb]

...I’ve exited the hold and entered the approach a few times in the past where I wasn’t getting the glide slope. Loading and activating VTF at that point seems to reset things...

I get what you are saying and understand. But, pushing the OBS is my go-to in situations where I am in a hold, done holding, and want the box to sequence to the next fix on the approach after the holding fix.
Activating VTF will turn on the glideslope as you stated. But, the glideslope will also become active on its own once you get within a certain (I don't recall how far) distance from the FAF. I used to wonder why I didn't get glideslope once I was on an approach segment like we do with a true ILS. But, after I learned it will appear, I don't sweat it any longer.

 

[WDD]

I’ll try the Obs trick next time I’m shooting approaches.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’ll try the Obs trick next time I’m shooting approaches.

SUSP/UNSUSP automatic sequencing is a primary function of the key in a Garmin navigator. Maybe it’s main function. I’d guess it’s used for that far more than for changing the course to a waypoint (the OBS function, which, unless you also want to suspend, is better accomplished in a GNS with the “Course to Waypoint” function).

One possibility with the problem you encountered in not capturing the glideslope might be the timing of unsuspend. The issue brought up originally was due to the failure to suspend automatic sequencing until after crossing the fix. The same thing can happen if you wait too too long to resume automatic sequencing. Many navigators block glidepath capture if too close. Fortunately, you can press that single key as soon as you know you will need to. In the hold situation, for example, if you know this will be your last turn, you can unsuspend while outbound.