Delta knocks tail off other plane on ground

Is it possible the 350 has damage way inboard of the wingtip - ie at the attachment?

Does it happen like this; the force applied to the tip can be inferred from known speed/location of damage to tip/extent of damage to tip then calculations made to find the effects on the rest of the wing?
 
flyingron said:
I think they collided back around F2 and E somewhere. The RJ continued around on H before the tail fell off and the Airbus just pulled forward after Ground told him he couldn't go back to F3.
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Video shows the collision happened right where the tail fell off, on H short of 8R.
 
RyanB said:
Am I the only one that’s a bit surprised by how apparently easily it snapped off? Considering the slow taxi speed, it seems like it didn’t take much to break it off. I realize the A350 has a lot of mass, it’s just hard to fathom.
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That's exactly what I'd expect to happen when a wing designed to support a 700,000 lb airplane collides with the vertical stab designed to steer an 85,000 lb plane.
 
A delta pilot is not used to EVER having to provide his own clearance. Honestly, most aren’t.

Smaller outfits go where they have no support.

Additionally, you can’t even see your wingtips in most of these things.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Being pulled up to hold short does not assure wingtip clearance behind you. It is up to the following aircraft to ensure they have enough clearance.
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I'm aware of that, but I was also taught in circumstances like this to not unnecessarily leave your tail feathers dangling near a taxiway.
 
Although possibly not a factor in this incident, it appears from the Photo in Post #1 of this thread, that Endeavor 5526 was way off of its lines at the hold short position. As large as they may be, airports are quite short of space, and taxiway nosewheel lines allow for safe taxiing, although with little margin for error. Looking at the airport diagram furnished by Flyingron in Post #30, there's a slight chicane at the incident intersection, making it even more important that a "hold short" aircraft is on its lines.

The Atlanta Ground Control voice recordings offer additional insight into this incident and are available from LiveATC.net
 
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The A350, as the largest predator on the ramp, hungers for blood. Normally the CRJ relies on its nimbleness and speed to avoid predators, but this time the A350 approaches from cover behind the CRJ to avoid being spotted... then it pounces! The attack is over in an instant.

The unfortunate CRJ, bereft of its fin, is unable to maintain stability. The A350 calls its A321 pack members over. They circle awaiting the CRJ's inevitable end. There is little point in risking injury when the CRJ is already fatally wounded.

The smell of blood attracts smaller birds such as the Cessna 172 and 182 who stand at a respectable distance, squabbling amongst each other, waiting for their chance to steal a morsel from the bigger birds.

-- David Attenborough (probably)
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm aware of that, but I was also taught in circumstances like this to not unnecessarily leave your tail feathers dangling near a taxiway.
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Capngrog said:
Although possibly not a factor in this incident, it appears from the Photo in Post #1 of this thread, that Endeavor 5526 was way off of its lines at the hold short position. As large as they may be, airports are quite short of space, and taxiway nosewheel lines allow for safe taxiing, although with little margin for error. Looking at the airport diagram furnished by Flyingron in Post #30, there's a slight chicane at the incident intersection, making it even more important that a "hold short" aircraft is on its lines.

The Atlanta Ground Control voice recordings offer additional insight into this incident and are available from LiveATC.net
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For everyone saying well the CRJ didn't pull up far enough, let me say it loud, THE HOLD SHORT does NOT guarantee wingtip clearance from the taxiway. Two reasons for that, you can't predict how long of an aircraft will be at the hold short at any particular moment, and you can't predict the wingspan of the passing aircraft! If the CRJ was at the hold short, a 747 could have still hit him. The hold short line does nothing to provide separation behind you, and the CRJ pilot did nothing wrong stopping a few feet short. The hold short is only there for one reason, to protect the Runway Safety Area. I can assure you, there is absolutely nothing in the Airport Design AC that provides any type of clearance between a hold short and a taxiway for wingtip clearance purposes.

Likewise the taxiway centerline only guarantees you wingtip clearance from FIXED objects for the aircraft in the Taxiway Design Group. Only the PIC is responsible for ensuring they have adequate wingtip clearance.
 
midwestpa24 said:
For everyone saying well the CRJ didn't pull up far enough, let me say it loud, THE HOLD SHORT does NOT guarantee wingtip clearance from the taxiway. Two reasons for that, you can't predict how long of an aircraft will be at the hold short at any particular moment, and you can't predict the wingspan of the passing aircraft! If the CRJ was at the hold short, a 747 could have still hit him. The hold short line does nothing to provide separation behind you, and the CRJ pilot did nothing wrong stopping a few feet short. The hold short is only there for one reason, to protect the Runway Safety Area. I can assure you, there is absolutely nothing in the Airport Design AC that provides any type of clearance between a hold short and a taxiway for wingtip clearance purposes.

Likewise the taxiway centerline only guarantees you wingtip clearance from FIXED objects for the aircraft in the Taxiway Design Group. Only the PIC is responsible for ensuring they have adequate wingtip clearance.
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Not pulling up to the hold short line guarantees that there will be less clearance than if you pulled up to the hold short line.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Only the PIC is responsible for ensuring they have adequate wingtip clearance.
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Ultimately, yes of course this is the case. However, the point of accident analysis is to examine all likely contributing factors. The CRJ being ~20-30 feet short of the hold line is a contributing factor. More than once I've heard a ground controller tell someone to "pull up to the line" to make room for other planes.
 
Lindberg said:
Not pulling up to the hold short line guarantees that there will be less clearance than if you pulled up to the hold short line.
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Pulling up to the hold short line doesn't guarantee wingtip clearance

Doesn't change the responsibility of the aircraft behind you to not hit you. What if it wasn't a CRJ-900 at 119 feet long, but an MD-80 at 140+ feet? Would it have mattered where it stopped?

Find one reference in the FAR/AIM or anywhere else that instructs pilots the tip of their aircraft must stop at the line, or X of feet from it. Doesn't exist. Just like pilots saying, "Any Traffic Please Advise".
 
midwestpa24 said:
Pulling up to the hold short line doesn't guarantee wingtip clearance

Doesn't change the responsibility of the aircraft behind you to not hit you. What if it wasn't a CRJ-900 at 119 feet long, but an MD-80 at 140+ feet? Would it have mattered where it stopped?

Find one reference in the FAR/AIM or anywhere else that instructs pilots the tip of their aircraft must stop at the line, or X of feet from it. Doesn't exist. Just like pilots saying, "Any Traffic Please Advise".
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What part of what I wrote do you actually disagree with?
 
As I recall from my days at MIA, much attention was spent on ensuring that nose wheel lead lines provided adequate wingtip clearance from any aircraft expected to use the airfield. I remember there was much gnashing of teeth, spirited discussions etc. getting ready to receive our first A-380 aircraft. It was finally decided that certain runways and taxiways/taxi lanes Had to be closed during A-380 ground operations. Imagine the traffic jams resulting from having to visually "estimate" clearances between each taxiing aircraft. Such clearances could not be assured unless each aircraft was being led and/or followed by marshaling vehicles (a potential problem in itself). Keeping on the lines is absolutely critical. AN-24 and C-5 operations were restricted mostly to the north side of the airfield and required special escort
 
Capngrog said:
Although possibly not a factor in this incident, it appears from the Photo in Post #1 of this thread, that Endeavor 5526 was way off of its lines at the hold short position. As large as they may be, airports are quite short of space, and taxiway nosewheel lines allow for safe taxiing, although with little margin for error. Looking at the airport diagram furnished by Flyingron in Post #30, there's a slight chicane at the incident intersection, making it even more important that a "hold short" aircraft is on its lines.

The Atlanta Ground Control voice recordings offer additional insight into this incident and are available from LiveATC.net
Click to expand...
They weren't all the way to the line, but I'd hardly call that 'way off'
 

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geezer said:
Ground gave a bad clearance, pilots failed to get a wing walker to provide certainty of space to taxi.

CRJ was at the hold short line for the departure runway when it was hit.
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Wing walkers on an active taxiway? The crew is responsible for not hitting things. It’s not a ATC function to insure clearance at major airports. In fact it’s impossible. If clearance is in doubt you simple stop and notify ground you can’t continue taxi until the conflicting aircraft moves.
 
flyingron said:
I think they collided back around F2 and E somewhere. The RJ continued around on H before the tail fell off and the Airbus just pulled forward after Ground told him he couldn't go back to F3.
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They were number two for departure and reported to ground that they had an issue they needed to deal with and needed a place to sit. They were given taxi instructions to do that and taxied right by the RJ and made contact. Taxi lines don’t provide clearance from other aircraft in that situation. You have to provide that clearance or hold until the other aircraft moves.
 
The CRJ is a reasonable distance from the hold line. Pull up any closer and they wouldn't even be able to see it.
 
Lindberg said:
Not pulling up to the hold short line guarantees that there will be less clearance than if you pulled up to the hold short line.
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This instance is the exception that proves the rule. The clearance behind the CRJ that hadn’t pulled all the way to the hold short line was greater than it would be if the CRJ had done so.

After the incident, that is. Before the incident, your statement is unassailable.
 
dmspilot said:
The CRJ is a reasonable distance from the hold line. Pull up any closer and they wouldn't even be able to see it.
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Not over the nose, but wouldn't it be easily visible when looking slightly to the side and down? Not that I've ever been in a CRJ cockpit...
 
Fearless Tower said:
They weren't all the way to the line, but I'd hardly call that 'way off'
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I guess that I've failed to make myself clear that I'm talking about the taxiway/taxilane center lines, not runway hold short lines. The aircraft nose wheel should be in line with the centerline, which, as shown in Post #1 of this thread, it clearly is not. It's WAY off.
 
GaryM said:
Not over the nose, but wouldn't it be easily visible when looking slightly to the side and down? Not that I've ever been in a CRJ cockpit...
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If you pull up so far that you can only see the hold line out the side window, then you won't be able verify the runway assignment with the runway holding position sign or markings when cleared for takeoff or to line up prior to entering the runway. In other words, the sign or marking showing the runway number should be visible while holding short.
 
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Tons of irrelevant detail…

This is likely gonna fall on the delta crew. You really should know where your wingtips are.

Reality, especially in giant main line planes, they are catered to, they usually don’t have to worry about it. They were kinda lead down the primrose path.

Both planes were close enough to where they should be. Honestly, the ground controller shoulda known better, especially in Atlanta.
 
Nice job Delta. World’s most professional airline.

Obviously anyone can have an accident… but my point is these guys truly act like they are above all reproach.
 
I think we're missing the most important thing. If they can get a ferry permit for it and it works, this has the potential to be the best advertisement for "JB Weld" ever.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Doing a little measuring in Google Earth, it looks like *if* the CRJ-900 had pulled *all the way* up to the hold-short line *and* the A350 was on centerline, there should have been enough clearance. Barely. But it doesn't look like they were even close to the hold line.
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Juan Browne also did that, and so did I. Looks like ~40 feet max. They only needed one.
 
Instead of guessing, anyone have the actual Regs/AC which show following the taxi centerline guarantees? My searching is not getting an answer.
It would be interesting to see if what the regs/ac state and what professional pilots believe match (e.g. does regs/ac only guarantee fixed object clearance, but pilots expect GRD to effectively provide it).

Tim
 
I can tell you airline pilots believe staying on centerline will keep you clear of EVERYTHING essentially not in your sight.

We also KNOW we are ultimately responsible. But we also MUST rely on others.

There is NO specific training or real world exercise in close quarter taxiing at major airlines.

I essentially bush fly light twins right now, MD-80s. I have literally stopped, set the brake, opened the door, put the stairs down, got out and stepped off clearances then just hoped for the best!

At the majors, if in doubt, I’d have just stopped and made a radio call… at best. I mostly just hoped for the best!

I hate to bust everyone’s bubble, the the larger and more organized the operation, the lower the pilot skill. Believe it or not.

While they were lead down the primrose path, they were powerless to prevent it.
 
tspear said:
Instead of guessing, anyone have the actual Regs/AC which show following the taxi centerline guarantees? My searching is not getting an answer.
It would be interesting to see if what the regs/ac state and what professional pilots believe match (e.g. does regs/ac only guarantee fixed object clearance, but pilots expect GRD to effectively provide it).

Tim
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AC 150/5300-13A Airport Design, Chapter 4 is all about Taxiway Design. There are standards for wingtip separation between parallel taxiways, but obviously not for crossing taxiways. There are also standards of distance between taxiways and runways, but that is more driven by obstacle height clearance to the tip of tail of an aircraft on the taxiway.
 
Capngrog said:
The aircraft nose wheel should be in line with the centerline, which, as shown in Post #1 of this thread, it clearly is not. It's WAY off.
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Watching the video on X, it looks like the CRJ was standing at a slight angle with the nose gear on the centerline and was rotated to the right off the centerline when they were hit.
 
Tools said:
A delta pilot is not used to EVER having to provide his own clearance. Honestly, most aren’t.

Smaller outfits go where they have no support.

Additionally, you can’t even see your wingtips in most of these things.
Click to expand...

I would 100% disagree with this statement. I had to make judgement calls and provide my own wingtip separation on virtually every flight I flew as a widebody CA. JFK was always a challenge as the ramps are crowded and lots of aircraft movement. The entire taxiway area around the 22L/4R and 13R/31L intersection is a judgement call in a widebody. The 737 I flew prior was a piece of cake compared to the A330. In ATL after landing as they stage aircraft to cross the inboards in mass you had to make the call as ground tried to push you to an unoccupied intersection.
This does not even get into all the charter work Delta widebodies are involved with. Moving a A330 around a GA ramp was always a interesting experience.
 
Well, that clears it up. Them guys screwed the pooch… ouch.
 
Tools said:
I can tell you airline pilots believe staying on centerline will keep you clear of EVERYTHING essentially not in your sight.
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Nonsense
Tools said:
We also KNOW we are ultimately responsible. But we also MUST rely on others.
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Also nonsense. NEVER rely on others.
Tools said:
There is NO specific training or real world exercise in close quarter taxiing at major airlines.
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More nonsense
Tools said:
I essentially bush fly light twins right now, MD-80s. I have literally stopped, set the brake, opened the door, put the stairs down, got out and stepped off clearances then just hoped for the best!

At the majors, if in doubt, I’d have just stopped and made a radio call… at best. I mostly just hoped for the best!
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The parking brake is the most effective threat mitigation device in aviation. On the ground. Stop, set the brake, resolve the issue. Continue.
Tools said:
I hate to bust everyone’s bubble, the the larger and more organized the operation, the lower the pilot skill. Believe it or not.
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This goes beyond nonsense and borders on BS.
Tools said:
While they were lead down the primrose path, they were powerless to prevent it.
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Not sure which “they” you are referring to—the Delta A350? They were the only player with the absolute power to prevent that collision.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
So, the CRJ can just stop wherever they want and everyone else has a responsibility to ensure clearances to go around them? Lol, get out of here.

The nose of the CRJ was 80' from the line. I put 60% of the fault on the CRJ.
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I'm curious if 60% of the dollar value of the damage was taken by the CRJ. A350 wing repair vs. CRJ tail replacement (or depreciated value of the plane less its in-place scrap value).
 
FlightmechH3 said:
So, the CRJ can just stop wherever they want and everyone else has a responsibility to ensure clearances to go around them? Lol, get out of here.

The nose of the CRJ was 80' from the line. I put 60% of the fault on the CRJ.
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Dunning-Kruger at its finest.
 
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