Insurance Company Throws A Logical Twist

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Our small airport has a nice mix of younger and older pilots. We have several now 80yrs old or older and still flying and loving it.

So very recently one these pilots was given a insurance twist, which in hindsight is pretty cunning from the ins company pov.

They told him they will only insure him if he has his airman 3rd class. He will no longer be insured under his basic med.

Please forgive if this has already been discussed. Insurance company seems to found a easy out. I wonder when that age will 75, the 70, then 65, etc.

Most this age (at our field) are basic med.
 
Yeah, we’re starting to see this more. It’s a nice way for the insurance company to say “you’re too old” and these companies are really becoming risk averse, almost to the point where it makes a lot of things very difficult.
 
Sinistar said:
Our small airport has a nice mix of younger and older pilots. We have several now 80yrs old or older and still flying and loving it.

So very recently one these pilots was given a insurance twist, which in hindsight is pretty cunning from the ins company pov.

They told him they will only insure him if he has his airman 3rd class. He will no longer be insured under his basic med.

Please forgive if this has already been discussed. Insurance company seems to found a easy out. I wonder when that age will 75, the 70, then 65, etc.

Most this age (at our field) are basic med.
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Does AOPA offer insurance? If not, that is a failure on their part.
 
RyanB said:
Yeah, we’re starting to see this more. It’s a nice way for the insurance company to say “you’re too old” and these companies are really becoming risk averse, almost to the point where it makes a lot of things very difficult.
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They may just be realizing that Basic Med is really meaningless, and if they want any actual assurance of fitness to fly, they have to require an FAA medical.
 
There have been a few twists on this. Another I’ve seen is BasicMed OK, but requiring the medical portion be done annually or biennially.

I think they’re experimenting. There have always been some, but people are generally living and remaining active longer. At the same time, there are declines and some can happen quickly. So looking at more regular exams in mitigation.

Not that different than requiring annual flight reviews.
 
Another crappy part isn't just that he will need a 3rd class, but is more likely to get denied for some reason so if he goes for it and is denied and it's a lengthy SI then he isn't just not insured, he is not legal to fly anything. So then he has to go down the path of letting it lapse and LSA which in some cases their plane may not be LSA.

Brings a question. Let's say someone in this situation had a string of 3rd class medicals and when older goes to basic med never having had a 3rd class denied. Then they hit this snag. Can they then fly LSA forever even when basic med has expired. That should be allowed?
 
This has been going on for little while not. Avemco insures older pilots but a lot of insurance companies(not all but list is growing) are requiring a class 1/2/3 medical over basic med for many things now. Anything beyond the normal vanilla airplanes - whether it’s a combination of pressurized, high performance, complex or whatever - it is shifting.

Let’s be real - basicmed hides a lot of things that someone /could/ fail on for a medical. So the insurance companies are about reduction of risk - and you have to answer - would they prefer a group of people all on class 1/2/3 medical or a group all on basic med ? You know the answer to that.
 
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Among the UFO's I know, this seems to be the case for those that fly HP/complex. Along with annual rather than biannual FR's.

Guys flying fixed gear less than 200hp don't seem to be affected and still fly under Basic Med.
 
Anthem said:
Let’s be real - basicmed hides a lot of things that someone /could/ fail on for a medical.
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Can you give some examples?

In all seriousness, having been through executive physicals, SCCA licensing physicals, and a Class 3, I would say that the Class 3 is the least intrusive of them all. Heck, my company's annual exec physical is more involved than a Class 1 (if I read the Class 1 requirements correctly). I would have to think that a GP filling out a BasicMed form would be thinking like a normal annual physical, which covers a lot of ground.
 
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StraightnLevel said:
Can you give some examples?

In all seriousness, having been through executive physicals, SCCA licensing physicals, and a Class 3, I would say that the Class 3 is the least intrusive of them all. Heck, my company's annual exec physical is more involved than a Class 1 (if I read the Class 1 requirements correctly). I would have to think that a GP filling out a BasiMed form would be thinking like a normal annual physical, which covers a lot of ground.
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Seriously ? You are asking that question ? You're just trolling at that point. There are MANY pilots that are on basicMed that cant pass a medical. They and their doc are deeming themselves fit to fly and are flying under that. If you could pass a class 1/2/3 medical easily - then go and get one and insurance isnt an issue. The reality is that /some/ of basic med is that they dont want maybe the "hassle" and want the convenience. The reality is that there are many on every field that are doing it because its less stringent and they dont want to justify EVERYTHING they have going on and thereby potentially losing their medical.

There are people who have had a medical, went to therapy and prescribed meds that would easily disqualify them from a class 1/2/3 medical. hell, people on this forum asking that. There are people who have recovered from whatever that do the same. All sorts of reasons. There are people on basicmed that have had a disqualifying event and rather than even trying to get a class 1/2/3 medical again - they just transition to basicmed and self/doc certify.
 
I turn 79 next week and have a fresh 2nd class medical certificate. But one of the 80+ local pilots told me he needs a flight review yearly now to keep his insurance. He is on basic med.
 
MountainDude said:
Does AOPA offer insurance? If not, that is a failure on their part.
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AOPA does not. They have teamed with various underwriters and brokers over the year (for a long time it was Avemco that is headquartered next door). Frankly, after a few go rounds I find most AOPA-endorsed stuff was a good deal for nobody but AOPA.
 
flyingron said:
AOPA does not. They have teamed with various underwriters and brokers over the year (for a long time it was Avemco that is headquartered next door). Frankly, after a few go rounds I find most AOPA-endorsed stuff was a good deal for nobody but AOPA.
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Yep - AOPA is just skimming commissions on top of commissions over the top. When they were direct with the underwriter (avemco) - then their is only one commission. But when its a broker relationship - both parties are getting paid. . . .
 
Anthem said:
Seriously ? You are asking that question ? You're just trolling at that point. There are MANY pilots that are on basicMed that cant pass a medical. They and their doc are deeming themselves fit to fly and are flying under that. If you could pass a class 1/2/3 medical easily - then go and get one and insurance isnt an issue. The reality is that /some/ of basic med is that they dont want maybe the "hassle" and want the convenience. The reality is that there are many on every field that are doing it because its less stringent and they dont want to justify EVERYTHING they have going on and thereby potentially losing their medical.

There are people who have had a medical, went to therapy and prescribed meds that would easily disqualify them from a class 1/2/3 medical. hell, people on this forum asking that. There are people who have recovered from whatever that do the same. All sorts of reasons. There are people on basicmed that have had a disqualifying event and rather than even trying to get a class 1/2/3 medical again - they just transition to basicmed and self/doc certify.
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Not trolling - I was looking for some serious examples.

Are you saying that people are going to basicmed so that they can intentionally continue to fly with disqualifying conditions? Wouldn't this mean that they are convincing a non-AME doc to sign off without following the rules?

Seriously, I'm trying to sort out what conditions or medication you can have under basicmed that you can't have under Class 3, and I'm not seeing the difference.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Not trolling - I was looking for some serious examples.

Are you saying that people are going to basicmed so that they can intentionally continue to fly with disqualifying conditions? Wouldn't this mean that they are convincing a non-AME doc to sign off without following the rules?

Seriously, I'm trying to sort out what conditions or medication you can have under basicmed that you can't have under Class 3, and I'm not seeing the difference.
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are you seriously believing that isnt the case ?

there are many. If you have already held a medical. You could be on SSRI/SNRI's and still fly on basic med for depression or whatever. You can have color blindness get worse. You could have had a bad ekg reading. You could honestly be later diagnosed with adhd and fly on BM whereas you would never pass beforehand. You could suffer multiple concussions and self certify that you have recovered that the FAA would have issue. You could have a myriad of other conditions that pop up that will disqualify you for medical but can continue to fly under BM.
 
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Anthem said:
Let’s be real - basicmed hides a lot of things that someone /could/ fail on for a medical.
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Agreed. Let's be real. BasicMed bypasses a lot of things that would fail a medical or require thousands of dollars for unnecessary testing even with zero effect on aviation safety.

We seem to still be in the days before BasicMed passed - people convinced that it's dangerous even with a good number of years of stats showing otherwise.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Agreed. Let's be real. BasicMed bypasses a lot of things that would fail a medical or require thousands of dollars for unnecessary testing even with zero effect on aviation safety.

We seem to still be in the days before BasicMed passed - people convinced that it's dangerous even with a good number of years of stats showing otherwise.
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I agree. There are many things that arent factors and shouldnt be factors. Im not arguing that its any more dangerous or less dangerous - though you could argue that it probably wont be "less" as one is more stringent than the other. But it might not have great statistical relevance.

That being said - BM does bypass a lot of things that could fail a class medical (and whether its costly testing, or whether they just plain cant pass anymore. But someone arguing otherwise just isnt getting it.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Are you saying that people are going to basicmed so that they can intentionally continue to fly with disqualifying conditions? Wouldn't this mean that they are convincing a non-AME doc to sign off without following the rules?
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No, it doesn't mean that. It's more of a recognition that certain things OK City gets its panties wadded over are actually inconsequential from a medical perspective.

This was pre-BasicMed. I had a friend who decided to fly Light Sport only for 3 years, just to avoid the hassle of dealing with listing a medical visit. It was one of those things OK City would go nuts about even though the answer to all the #18 questions was honestly "No."
 
Sounds like they need to make more of a differentiation between 3rd and 2nd class than just 20/40 to 20/20.

Since the 3rd class can't really fly the unknowledgeable public anyway, perhaps everything asked in MedXpress that isn't asked in BM should be grayed out/unavailable when you select 3rd class.
 
There are plenty of things that are disqualifying for a Class 3 or higher but really have no effect on flight safety.

Alcohol violations from years ago where no one was hurt, the great apnea bugaboo, situational depression. A couple airline pilots, wiped out from their company’s work schedule, fall asleep at the wheel. Instead of fixing the actual problem, everyone who a one size fits all chart deems overweight is unfit to fly unless they spend thousands on testing and agree to spend the rest of their lives sleeping hooked up to a machine. Spouse dies, lose your job, some other personal tragedy, you’re really down for a while so you see a professional for help, wind up with a diagnosis code so they can get paid by your insurance, and the FAA sees you as a dangerous nutjob who is a threat to the skies until you’re grounded for a couple years and spend about 400 hours worth of flight time with their preferred doctors.

If the regular medical certificate standards really prevented disaster and destruction, there would have been plenty of crashes since Sport Pilot and Basic Med took effect.
 
The weird thing is, I doubt any of us will actually crash into another object. It’s more of the worry of an engine out and being forced to land off airport and needing assistance with the airplane from this point on for me. I am actually willing to take the risks of self insuring if it wasn’t for this point alone. I can take the risk of a natural disaster or gear collapse or taxi mishap. If this happened then who is really to blame, your maintenance, the manufacture of the engine or particular parts? Whereas with a car usually it’s more clear, someone ran a light and got hit or wasn’t in their lane.
 
flyingron said:
AOPA does not. They have teamed with various underwriters and brokers over the year (for a long time it was Avemco that is headquartered next door). Frankly, after a few go rounds I find most AOPA-endorsed stuff was a good deal for nobody but AOPA.
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Just to clarify the record, AVEMCO and AOPA never teamed up on insurance products. The relationship was one of affiliation marketing only that created the impression, but the relationship was only advertising in nature. AOPA had no input on underwriting.

I spent 5 years managing that relationship.we bought a crap ton of ads, and supported AIR Safety Foundation, but that was as far as the business relationship went. They got no commissions of any type, so no nexus would be created.
 
Anthem said:
I agree. There are many things that arent factors and shouldnt be factors. Im not arguing that its any more dangerous or less dangerous - though you could argue that it probably wont be "less" as one is more stringent than the other. But it might not have great statistical relevance.

That being said - BM does bypass a lot of things that could fail a class medical (and whether its costly testing, or whether they just plain cant pass anymore. But someone arguing otherwise just isnt getting it.
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It's not just the costly testing for an SI that puts people off; it's also the prospect of being grounded for a year or so while the FAA takes their sweet time getting around to making a decision. And during that year, your skills are deteriorating.
 
The thing I'm wondering is whether insurance companies are actually seeing an increase in claims for older pilots on BasicMed, or is it just theoretical?

The accident history I saw was for BasicMed as a whole, not just older pilots, but it was similar to pilots with medical certificates, which suggests that BasicMed pilots on average may be doing a good job of managing the risk.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Can you give some examples?
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Uncontrolled hypertension.

My basic med physician has no idea what's disqualifying for a third-class medical, and figures if I'm "healthy enough," I'm "healthy enough to fly."

The only thing he did for my basic med exam that's not part of my normal physical was have me read some letters on an eye chart from some distance. Of course he had no standard for "passing," he just wanted to test my vision because the CMEC says to.

Having Basic Med says nothing other than some physician applying some standard thinks you're fit to fly. If that standard was higher than a third class, you'd likely get a third class. Therefore the standard must be lower. QED.
 
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Palmpilot said:
The thing I'm wondering is whether insurance companies are actually seeing an increase in claims for older pilots on BasicMed, or is it just theoretical?

The accident history I saw was for BasicMed as a whole, not just older pilots, but it was similar to pilots with medical certificates, which suggests that BasicMed pilots on average may be doing a good job of managing the risk.
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No BasicMed
Annual BasicMed
Annual flight reviews/IPCs
Liability only insurance
Increased premiums
Increased deductibles
Refusal to insure

Because of the multiple ways insurers are addressing it, I suspect it’s just about older pilots and increased risk of hull claims due to the natural process of aging. Those are just the ones I’ve seen or heard of.
 
Lindberg said:
Uncontrolled hypertension.


Having Basic Med says nothing other than some physician applying some standard thinks you're fit to fly. If that standard was higher than a third class, you'd likely get a third class. Therefore the standard must be lower. QED.
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Different does not equal lower, so I don’t think that logically follows. I can definitely pass a third class or even second class. Having been through the expense of an SI once for what my specialists thought was ridiculous, I choose not to abuse myself.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Different does not equal lower, so I don’t think that logically follows.
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Thanks - that's the point I was trying to get at with my earlier question.

I had a doc a few years back who refused to sign off on my racing license without running a treadmill stress test, and it's also part of our basic annual exec physical, as is a complete blood screening panel. That's definitely not a Class 3 requirement, last I checked. If I went to either of those two docs to get a BasicMed signoff, they're going to be more stringent before approving than my AME would be.
 
Lindberg said:
Uncontrolled hypertension.

My basic med physician has no idea what's disqualifying for a third-class medical, and figures if I'm "healthy enough," I'm "healthy enough to fly."

The only thing he did for my basic med exam that's not part of my normal physical was have me read some letters on an eye chart from some distance. Of course he had no standard for "passing," he just wanted to test my vision because the CMEC says to.

Having Basic Med says nothing other than some physician applying some standard thinks you're fit to fly. If that standard was higher than a third class, you'd likely get a third class. Therefore the standard must be lower. QED.
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The FAA's criterion for being concerned about high blood pressure is more lenient than that of my primary care physician.
 
The bottom line is BasicMed has been around for a while now and there has been no increase in medical issues according to CAMI. The Class 3 has been debunked as a tool to improve safety. FAA Report linked here. BasicMed works, but it is just a start.

Hyper-theoretical issues exist, sure. But pilots on BasicMed are also now free to dig deeper and get medical advice on things they never would have before. The Class 3 is largely a product of Bureaucratic inertia, it provides no value. It should go.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Different does not equal lower, so I don’t think that logically follows. I can definitely pass a third class or even second class. Having been through the expense of an SI once for what my specialists thought was ridiculous, I choose not to abuse myself.
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Except in this case, it does. The actuaries know what standard is applied to grant a third-class medical. That standard is not applied to Basic Med. Any physician can grant Basic Med privileges based on any standard he chooses to apply. It won't--can't--be a higher standard, so it will be lower. Even if it's sometimes the same standard, it will, on average (what actuaries care about) be lower. Moreover, it's undefined.

And even though anecdotes are not evidence, and the fact that you could pass a third-class medical is irrelevant, I am in a similar position. I could pass a second-class this year, as I have for years, but I'd have to gather some documentation. Since I don't need a second-class, I got Basic Med. Of course the underwriter can't know any of those things, and certainly isn't going to take my word for it. When I asked a local AME why he stopped doing Basic Med exams after previously being gung ho, he said, "Everyone who came to me wanting Basic Med had something wrong with them, and I didn't want the liability."
 
Palmpilot said:
The FAA's criterion for being concerned about high blood pressure is more lenient than that of my primary care physician.
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Mine too. Yet lots of pilots fail the FAA standard. Do you think your PCP would decline to sign you off for Basic Med bc your BP was too high? Mine wouldn't. Where does it tell him to do that?
 
jbarrass said:
The bottom line is BasicMed has been around for a while now and there has been no increase in medical issues according to CAMI. The Class 3 has been debunked as a tool to improve safety. FAA Report linked here. BasicMed works, but it is just a start.

Hyper-theoretical issues exist, sure. But pilots on BasicMed are also now free to dig deeper and get medical advice on things they never would have before. The Class 3 is largely a product of Bureaucratic inertia, it provides no value. It should go.
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So, do I understand correctly that you believe that BasicMed should allow full PPL privileges for any and all ratings and endorsements, just as Class 3 does today?
 
Lindberg said:
Except in this case, it does. The actuaries know what standard is applied to grant a third-class medical. That standard is not applied to Basic Med. Any physician can grant Basic Med privileges based on any standard he chooses to apply. It won't--can't--be a higher standard, so it will be lower. Even if it's sometimes the same standard, it will, on average (what actuaries care about) be lower. Moreover, it's undefined.

And even though anecdotes are not evidence, and the fact that you could pass a third-class medical is irrelevant, I am in a similar position. I could pass a second-class this year, as I have for years, but I'd have to gather some documentation. Since I don't need a second-class, I got Basic Med. Of course the underwriter can't know any of those things, and certainly isn't going to take my word for it. When I asked a local AME why he stopped doing Basic Med exams after previously being gung ho, he said, "Everyone who came to me wanting Basic Med had something wrong with them, and I didn't want the liability."
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Actuaries using actual data to make decisions is sometimes a myth, particularly with regard to aviation since the sampling size is so small.
 
MountainDude said:
Does AOPA offer insurance? If not, that is a failure on their part.
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They did but sold the agency to Assured Partners so they are no longer involved in insurance.


The other item to look at is frequency of medical exams. 3rd Class is valid for 24 months (after 40). Basic med is good for 4 years. A pilot flying under 3rd class is being "certified" every 2 years, under BasicMed every 4 years.
 
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