What does everyone think about ‘Lie to Fly’ from NYTimes?

[Salty]

You said “very few people lie.” I’d say over 1 out of 2 pilots not being truthful in a sample set of almost 4,000 pilots isn’t “very few."

I disagree. I’d say 1 out of 1 pilots do not fill out the medical express forms truthfully. Every single one that ever played on a merry go round as a kid and answers no to ”have you ever been dizzy” is not being truthful, just as a minor example. The form doesn’t differentiate between causes.

Further, not one of us actually knows every diagnosis we’ve ever had as we do not have memories or access to records that go back to birth. We’ve all “lied” on the form in that respect. We do the best we can, but nobody can actually say they know for sure.

 

[Salty]

I think the fact that is more to the point is that the guy avoiding the doctor is less safe than the guy that went, but he’s legal and the guy that went is not.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Really? If a treating physicians report says you have a history of alcohol dependence, you have been diagnosed.

“…the treating physician's report showed history of alcohol "dependence," general anxiety and panic disorder.”
“During the deferment process I actually self admitted myself to an IOP treatment for alcohol, which FAA said I needed to do this go around, and was sober for 6 months”
“I did have a relapse in January and have been on and off of sobriety for the past 6 months - I'm a week and a half into sobriety this time. I met with my AME again and I'm going through the steps requested of the FAA, most of which I've already done other than the mandatory alcohol/drug testing (first random test was today),”

As I said, I was never shown the treating physician’s notes when I was prescribed Zoloft in 2020. It wasn’t until I got the FAA’s letter this year, which was also almost a year after I had already checked myself into IOP for alcohol. I used alcohol in an unhealthy manner, I wasn’t dependent, there’s a difference.

The physician never said you’re alcohol dependent, or you need to go to a treatment center, etc. So you’re saying one can be diagnosed with something but never informed of the diagnosis?

 

[StraightnLevel]

. So you’re saying one can be diagnosed with something but never informed of the diagnosis?

Absolutely. It happens on a regular basis, so that insurance will pay.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

FAA understands crossing the thin line between a functioning alcoholic and a non functioning alcoholic is not a matter of if, but when. The fact you were placed in a program and can’t give up drinking confirms you have a dependance.

By that metric anyone on this thread that drinks more than 4 drinks per day is an alcoholic/abuses alcohol and on their way to dependence and my position with the FAA. That is if they are being honest with themselves and the FAA.

And I wasn’t placed into a program, I put myself into a program. By the way, there were people there that barely drank but wanted to NOT progress into worse situations.

I wasn’t caught, or told by the FAA or otherwise. I chose myself to better myself.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Absolutely. It happens on a regular basis, so that insurance will pay.

Maybe so, might be helpful to inform the patient on that as well.

 

[Salty]

Maybe so, might be helpful to inform the patient on that as well.

Unless you're a pilot (very small percentage of population), it's not relevant.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

You made me go back and look for this post:



I got the impression you were going through the SI process for GAD and SSRI when the treating physician's report revealed a history of alcohol dependence, which led to the SI process for alcohol dependence, during which you relapsed. If I'm reading all that correctly, you're almost two years into the SI process, but you've only got three months of sobriety.

I applaud you for doing the work, but I don't think your story is a good example of either full disclosure or unreasonable FAA delay.

I appreciate the comment. I do, however, disagree that 2-3 years wait to get SI is unreasonable. Especially when there isn’t a history of circumstances to substantiate the reason for deferral. I.e. alcohol related issues - hospitalization, withdrawal symptoms, legal issues, work issues, etc. I’ve had none of that…I drank in the evenings after work to relax. I didn’t want to deal with work in that manner any more, so I sought help.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Unless you're a pilot (very small percentage of population), it's not relevant.

Sorry, what do you mean? Not literally, I read what your’e saying but why would being a pilot be or not be relevant to telling a patient the physicians full diagnoses?

 

[Salty]

Sorry, what do you mean? Not literally, I read what your’e saying but why would being a pilot be or not be relevant to telling a patient the physicians full diagnoses?

Because what they put on a database to get the insurance company to cover what you actually need is not relevant. I agree they should tell you what is actually wrong with you.

I’ve had this discussion with my doctor, I’m surprised you haven’t. They learn what codes to use to get a certain test done so they use them instead of having to run you through 3 other nonsense steps before the insurance company approves the one you actually need.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Maybe so, might be helpful to inform the patient on that as well.

Good luck with that. The doctor doesn't work for the patient anymore; they work for the insurance companies and the government.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Unless you're a pilot (very small percentage of population), it's not relevant.

Sorry, what do you mean? Not literally, I read what your’e saying but why would being a pilot be or not be relevant to telling a patient the physicians full diagnoses?

He's right. Most people never know or care what goes on their chart, because it has no practical value to them.

It only matters when you have a regulatory need to have certain things on or off your medical records, and FAA medical cert is one of the few places you find this.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

He's right. Most people never know or care what goes on their chart, because it has no practical value to them.

It only matters when you have a regulatory need to have certain things on or off your medical records, and FAA medical cert is one of the few places you find this.

Yes, I’m learning a lot of hard lessons. I got my first medical in 1996 then next one in 2000 with no issues. Went on 22 year break from flying, so didn’t anticate the challanges. It’s even more of a kick in the a$$ hearing people say, just go sports pilot, you don’t don’t even deal with medicals. Oh well, I’ve made my bed and I’m working through it. Doesn’t mean I can’t or won’t call out issues with the logistical methods at the FAA when I see them.

 

[kontiki]

After watching the Times interview with Joseph Emerson the only thing I am certain of is that his story is the wrong starting point for a serious discussion on mental health. It's just too over the top. Life is not fair. I don't care how anyone feels, everyone must be accountable for what they do.

As an ATP he has no plausible deniability for his bad judgement.Yes, if you develop some condition that requires detachment from reality and hallucinations to control you are simply one of those unlucky people that should not be a pilot.

The guy had a wife, 2 kids, a great job, and an everyday set of circumstances pushes him over the edge! Too many people survive enormous hardship and pain in this world to still go on and do great things.

One of my oldest buddies did a tour in Vietnam as Marine, tangled with a land mine, earned a purple heart and 2 bronze stars, made it through the Navy flight academy, flew Coast Guard Rescue then became an airline pilot. There are the right people and wrong people for certain jobs. Maybe too many of the wrong people are getting through the the system.

 

[Tools]

@kontiki is EXACTLY right. It’s just the wrong story to highlight this. With no disrespect towards the man himself, very early on he said he’s the type that cries easily, and I noticed he scrapbooked… I’ve watched A LOT of people both succeed and fail in this business. I’ve lived A LOT of this business. That’s not a good sign…

Insofar as losing A GOOD friend. Most of us have lost them in tragic airplane crashes… and dealt with it. Doesn’t make us better, doesn’t make him worse… but I’m here to tell ya what happened isn’t surprising.

It’s why I have finally landed squarely on the viewpoint who should be the final authority as to whether someone is fit for what ever aspect of flying should be A PILOT. Not an administrative doctor.

I don’t know if that guy has any disorders or not, but it was clear to me he was near the edge of the bell curve for a pilot. And I only know this because I’ve been piloting for 48 years. I’ve been making suitability determinations for 27 of them.

 

[StraightnLevel]

@kontiki is EXACTLY right. It’s just the wrong story to highlight this. With no disrespect towards the man himself, very early on he said he’s the type that cries easily, and I noticed he scrapbooked… I’ve watched A LOT of people both succeed and fail in this business. I’ve lived A LOT of this business. That’s not a good sign…

Insofar as losing A GOOD friend. Most of us have lost them in tragic airplane crashes… and dealt with it. Doesn’t make us better, doesn’t make him worse… but I’m here to tell ya what happened isn’t surprising.

It’s why I have finally landed squarely on the viewpoint who should be the final authority as to whether some is fit for what ever aspect of flying should be A PILOT. Not an administrative doctor.

I don’t know if that guy has any disorders or not, but it was clear to me he was near the edge of the bell curve for a pilot. And I only know this because I’ve been piloting for 48 years. I’ve been making suitability determinations for 27 of them.

OK - I'm a new guy with nowhere near your experience or competence.

That said, while I 100% agree with your view of needing a pilot to evaluate someone's ability to be a pilot, I think that we do need an honest, competent medical assessment as part of the process. I don't think that a pilot has the skills to assess a candidate's vision, pulmonary function, medical history, nor any of a host of other medical predictors that most of us know little or nothing about.

The question is whether that is best done by a GP, an AME, or a FAA administrative function - or some combination of the above.

What is the goal? To be maximally restrictive from the POV of safety, or to be maximally inclusive, from the point of view of personal freedom/liberty/political expedience? Speed of processing, or accuracy of determination?

It seems to me that there are a number of competing goals to be addressed in this issue, and no matter what goal is met, someone is going to be unhappy with the outcome. Either way, someone who shouldn't be a pilot will end up crashing a plane, and someone who should be a pilot (or who thinks they should be) will be denied a cert after spending enough $$$ to buy a decent plane.

We can't win, we can't break even, and we can't quit the game. [StraightnLevel's three laws of aviation medical dynamics.]

 

[Tools]

Going one step further… to the root cause.

He has a “excuse” (if you will) for trying the pull those handles. What’s closer to the root cause is that he took mushrooms at all. But ya don’t know what ya don’t know, so let’s ask AGAIN.

WHY did he even consider it? Because he was still grieving over the loss of his friend. THAT is the issue. And what was demonstrated was a lack of the ability to compartmentalize as effectively as is necessary to be a pilot.

When I get a student in a briefing room complaining about bills, or a girlfriend, or ANYTHING but flying, I get hyper alert. It’s not normal for a pilot. The successful pilot genre compartmentalizes REALLY well.

 

[Tools]

Well, I didn’t mention the doc’s role. That is to determine they are healthy with respect to physically and mentally functioning at a level commensurate with learning in a normal fashion.

NOT to determine they can operate an aircraft. It’s a significant difference. Personally, I would think a non flying doc would rather do just that. It’s what they’re actually trained to do.

 

[Tools]

And going one step further, the faa doctor system (aeromedical) just administrates the process. They make sure you were referred to appropriately currently qualified experts for what ever condition is being specially evaluated.

You are missing a foot, and bring me an oncologist report saying you’re fine… guess again. Etc.

 

[Lindberg]

I appreciate the comment. I do, however, disagree that 2-3 years wait to get SI is unreasonable. Especially when there isn’t a history of circumstances to substantiate the reason for deferral. I.e. alcohol related issues - hospitalization, withdrawal symptoms, legal issues, work issues, etc. I’ve had none of that…I drank in the evenings after work to relax. I didn’t want to deal with work in that manner any more, so I sought help.

I'm not a teetotaler. But I don't drink to "not deal with things." And if I look back on a week and realize I had a work happy hour, a couple of dates, and a fireside gathering with neighbors, and wound up drinking more than I'm really comfortable with, then I don't do that the following week. In fact, there are entire weeks I drink nothing. Maybe even months. I can check out my liquor cabinet, even show off the new Scotch I got, without feeling any need to drink.

But you recognized you needed help to stop. And good for you for recognizing that. But yeah, in most people's eyes, that looks like alcoholism. The fact that you "relapsed" (your word) makes that even more clear. So if your argument is that the FAA should have handed you your SI for GAD and SSRI use even after discovering that you were also a relapsing alcoholic with two weeks of sobriety, I don't think you'll get much traction with that.

 

[Tools]

If you admit you drank more than you’re comfortable with, EVER, EVEN ONCE, at an airline coerced “evaluation”, YOU have a problem and would be admitted into HIMS voluntarily… meaning your alternative is to lose your career, you can agree or disagree, but do it NOW, you have one minute. And once you do agree, being a self admitted alcoholic is now in your medical and faa files.

 

[Salty]

If you admit you drank more than you’re comfortable with, EVER, EVEN ONCE, at an airline coerced “evaluation”, YOU have a problem and would be admitted into HIMS voluntarily… meaning your alternative is to lose your career.

I have a friend who is in that very situation. He made a joking statement to his AME that he's sure he probably drank to much once in his life and now he's stuck in HIMS forever.

 

[Lindberg]

If you admit you drank more than you’re comfortable with, EVER, EVEN ONCE, at an airline coerced “evaluation”, YOU have a problem and would be admitted into HIMS voluntarily… meaning your alternative is to lose your career, you can agree or disagree, but do it NOW, you have one minute. And once you do agree, being a self admitted alcoholic is now in your medical and faa files.

I should have been clear that my comfort level with how much I may drink in a week is based on the calories. But you're right, if there's a pattern of that, it's a problem.

 

[Tools]

THAT is the problem with “the system”. No need for a pattern. Calories related is irrelevant.

Do I think ya got a problem? No…. But I’m not “an expert”, my opinion don’t matter.

But I’m here to tell ya from what you’ve said yourself, you meet the ADMINISTRATIVE criteria. And once hoodwinked, you got NO recourse. No due process. NO EVER getting out of it.

The OP might need some help, I dunno. But anything HIMS related ain’t it. Frankly, HIMS is nothing more than human trafficking gone amok. In my opinion…

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

I'm not a teetotaler. But I don't drink to "not deal with things." And if I look back on a week and realize I had a work happy hour, a couple of dates, and a fireside gathering with neighbors, and wound up drinking more than I'm really comfortable with, then I don't do that the following week. In fact, there are entire weeks I drink nothing. Maybe even months. I can check out my liquor cabinet, even show off the new Scotch I got, without feeling any need to drink.

But you recognized you needed help to stop. And good for you for recognizing that. But yeah, in most people's eyes, that looks like alcoholism. The fact that you "relapsed" (your word) makes that even more clear. So if your argument is that the FAA should have handed you your SI for GAD and SSRI use even after discovering that you were also a relapsing alcoholic with two weeks of sobriety, I don't think you'll get much traction with that.

To echo Tools, by the FAA’s standards, you just admitted you have a substance abuse problem…welcome to the club, apparently. Make sure you put that on your next FAA application or you’re one of those pilots you seems to despise and lie on federal forms.

So you just drink because of the way it makes you feel? Yeah, that’s an alcoholic as well.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

THAT is the problem with “the system”. No need for a pattern. Calories related is irrelevant.

Do I think ya got a problem? No…. But I’m not “an expert”, my opinion don’t matter.

But I’m here to tell ya from what you’ve said yourself, you meet the ADMINISTRATIVE criteria. And once hoodwinked, you got NO recourse. No due process. NO EVER getting out of it.

The OP might need some help, I dunno. But anything HIMS related ain’t it. Frankly, HIMS is nothing more than human trafficking gone amok. In my opinion…

THANK YOU! Somone that’s actually looking from the outside that understands the issues with the system.

 

[Lindberg]

THAT is the problem with “the system”. No need for a pattern. Calories related is irrelevant.

Do I think ya got a problem? No…. But I’m not “an expert”, my opinion don’t matter.

But I’m here to tell ya from what you’ve said yourself, you meet the ADMINISTRATIVE criteria. And once hoodwinked, you got NO recourse. No due process. NO EVER getting out of it.

If you say so. But I'd have no concerns whatsoever discussing what I wrote above with my AME or my Basic Med doctor. In fact, all they usually ask is how many drinks per week on average.

 

[Lindberg]

To echo Tools, by the FAA’s standards, you just admitted you have a substance abuse problem…welcome to the club, apparently. Make sure you put that on your next FAA application or you’re one of those pilots you seems to despise and lie on federal forms.

So you just drink because of the way it makes you feel? Yeah, that’s an alcoholic as well.

Here is the FAA's definition of abuse. Counting calories doesn't fit. But it's really irrelevant what's wrong with me. Even if all pilots were alcoholics, it wouldn't affect your case.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Here is the FAA's definition of abuse. Counting calories doesn't fit. But it's really irrelevant what's wrong with me. Even if all pilots were alcoholics, it wouldn't affect your case.

You completely missed my and Tools point.

Also, if you have “increased tolerance,” you’re alchohol dependent. That’s basically anyone that drinks alcohol. The system is stupid.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

One interesting and telling fact from the “Lie to Fly” show was that the often quoted “fact" that only .1% of those applying for medical are actually ever denied is a farce. Dr. Northrup herself says that doesn’t include all the deferrals that are still in deferral status. I.e. all those unable or unwilling to go through the hoops the FAA sets up. I’m fortunate enough to be able to cashflow all the evaluations and such they require…many aren’t so lucky.

 

[Hugh Despenser]

Actually, that’s pretty much the way the FAA works across the board. Every pilot certificate I issue gets forwarded to some nameless, faceless bureaucrat in OKC who makes a decision without ever putting eyes on the pilot.

Oh come on. Give me a break.

It’s not the same and you know it.
Yes, you submit your “checkride passed” paperwork electronically to OKC via IACRA. Then some bureaucrat looks at it to make sure all is in order and simply approves the certificate to be formally issued.

Is making sure the paperwork was submitted properly the big decision OKC makes what you are talking about?

 

[Hugh Despenser]

I’m sure that exists but that doesn’t make it right either. Unless you’re saying abusing drugs to handle stress is fine, then we’d have to disagree.

Nobody here, me included, is advocating the abuse of drugs. So No, that’s not what i was saying.

 

[Clip4]

By that metric anyone on this thread that drinks more than 4 drinks per day is an alcoholic/abuses alcohol and on their way to dependence and my position with the FAA. That is if they are being honest with themselves and the FAA.

And I wasn’t placed into a program, I put myself into a program. By the way, there were people there that barely drank but wanted to NOT progress into worse situations.

I wasn’t caught, or told by the FAA or otherwise. I chose myself to better myself.

4 drinks a day? I guess it a perspective. I haven’t drank 4 drinks in the past 3 months and I am not trying to quit drinking.

 

[Half Fast]

It only matters when you have a regulatory need to have certain things on or off your medical records,....

No, it also matters when you change doctors, have surgery, etc. Inaccurate diagnoses in a record can be dangerous, but it does indeed happen all the time.

 

[Half Fast]

What is the goal? To be maximally restrictive from the POV of safety, or to be maximally inclusive,.....

Inclusive for pilots flying for recreation or personal business, restrictive for pilots carrying passengers for money. The system is trending toward that, with SP and Basic Med opening doors for the former, and MOSAIC continuing down the path.

I think we should remove the 3rd class requirement prior to BM, but that’s another discussion.

 

[Clip4]

I appreciate the comment. I do, however, disagree that 2-3 years wait to get SI is unreasonable. Especially when there isn’t a history of circumstances to substantiate the reason for deferral. I.e. alcohol related issues - hospitalization, withdrawal symptoms, legal issues, work issues, etc. I’ve had none of that…I drank in the evenings after work to relax. I didn’t want to deal with work in that manner any more, so I sought help.

“I did have a relapse in January”. Yes, we all describe ourselves as having a relapse when you have a drink after a period of time without one,

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

“I did have a relapse in January”. Yes, we all describe ourselves as having a relapse when you have a drink after a period of time without one,

What’s your point? A “relapse” for anyone wishing to stop drinking simply means that you went from abstinance to consuming again. Sounds like you assume that anyone that quit and doesn’t want to drink again came from the gutter, starts drinking as soon as they wake up, were arrested and then required to stop or forced to stop drinking for legal reasons and a relapse means going back to that. Like levels of many conditions, there are also levels of alcholism.

I honestly don’t care how YOU describe yourself. I decided to get help because I didn’t want something I recongnized as unhealthy to progress. Some might call that self reflective and being honest with ones self.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Also, if you have “increased tolerance,” you’re alchohol dependent. That’s basically anyone that drinks alcohol.

How do you figure that?

Oh come on. Give me a break.

It’s not the same and you know it.
Yes, you submit your “checkride passed” paperwork electronically to OKC via IACRA. Then some bureaucrat looks at it to make sure all is in order and simply approves the certificate to be formally issued.

Is making sure the paperwork was submitted properly the big decision OKC makes what you are talking about?

Making sure the paperwork is completed properly, ensuring that the applicant meets all the requirements for the certificate or rating being issued…just like the medical review.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

How do you figure that?

Figure what?

 

[MauleSkinner]

What’s your point? A “relapse” for anyone wishing to stop drinking simply means that you went from abstinance to consuming again. Sounds like you assume that anyone that quit and doesn’t want to drink again came from the gutter, starts drinking as soon as they wake up, were arrested and then required to stop or forced to stop drinking for legal reasons and a relapse means going back to that. Like levels of many conditions, there are also levels of alcholism.

You would most likely be the only person who read his statement that way. But a “level of alcoholism” is still alcoholism.