[NA] Household auto water shutoffs

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
Anyone with experience using one:

How are they for nuisance alarms?
(When the laundry is going and the irrigation comes on, will it shut everything down?)

Can it learn acceptable flows, or can it be programmed for that?

Think it was a worthwhile purchase, (if you have one)?
 
I got an email from my water utility because they noticed increased usage over a 24 hour period. Turns out, the thingy had come off the thingy and the basement toilet was running.
 
GeorgeC said:
I got an email from my water utility because they noticed increased usage over a 24 hour period. Turns out, the thingy had come off the thingy and the basement toilet was running.
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My sister bought a house with a cistern for water. Previous owners said they only had to buy water once in 20 years since the house was a ranch with larger roof.

Week or 2 after my sister and her husband moved in the cistern was empty. After having the cistern looked at because thought it had to be leaking and other back and forth with the realtor ETC.
They found the basement toilet running after the cistern was refilled. lol

I have city water but it makes check our toilet in the basement every time I am down there.
 
Electronic, or the real old school type that had a ball and a seat in a verticle line like power steam systems use? Essentially only good for a major pipe break leak, but if that happens the excess flow pushes the ball up and seals the line. The internal pressure differential keeps it seated. I know nothing of the electronic ones but the mechanical ones are extremely reliable and prevent catastrophic damage if nobody is around to shut off the line.
 
I believe they're based on continuous high flow over x minutes. So a short duration flow won't trigger it.

The leak detectors in the water meter are different. They look for the minimum flow over 24 hours. If it's not zero, then you probably have a leak. But those are designs to detect small leaks, not burst pipes.
 
Flatiowa said:
Electronic, or the real old school type that had a ball and a seat in a verticle line like power steam systems use?
Click to expand...

Moen has a “Flo smart water meter and shutoff” which connects to your phone
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Moen has a “Flo smart water meter and shutoff” which connects to your phone
Click to expand...
Very familiar with that one. Some nuisance alerts from the phone app, but you will learn to understand what it is probably telling you. If an 80 year old also gets the email alerts, massive nuisance phone calls will ensue. :rolleyes:

Ours is installed in a half-time house specifically for the above referenced cistern concern. It has sometimes become confused by the shift from occupied to unoccupied and vice versa. But a phone call to Customer Service can put it back in learning mode for a week, and that fixes it.
 
I built my own. No fancy stuff. Since the water heater is the most vulnerable and prone-to-leak device in our hard-water area, I installed a ball valve on the water inlet pipe, and made some bracketry to hold a heavy-duty screen door closer to the pipe and linked the plunger to the ball valve's lever. A triggering mechanism takes all the strain from the stretched closer so that the plumbing itself is not under strain, and it releases the closer to pull the valve shut when water is detected on the floor. That water detector? A sugar cube that holds a small lever up so that its other end holds down the release cable. 1/16" cable. Another light cable runs from the ball valve through a plastic guide to pull the gas valve shut, too.

It works. A few drops of water on it and that sugar cube collapses and the tank is shut off instantly. I built another to work the ball valve on the water inlet line where it enters the basement. If a line broke somewhere the water would eventually reach it and trigger the closer. I set the damper screws on the closers so that the valves don't get banged shut.

There are electronic devices that use a small battery-powered motor to close the valve. An electronic water-sensing doodad is on the floor to detect resistance changes when it gets wet, and triggers the shutoff. They cost money, and rely on batteries that can be forgotten. Creating stuff is fun, anyway.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I built my own. No fancy stuff. Since the water heater is the most vulnerable and prone-to-leak device in our hard-water area, I installed a ball valve on the water inlet pipe, and made some bracketry to hold a heavy-duty screen door closer to the pipe and linked the plunger to the ball valve's lever. A triggering mechanism takes all the strain from the stretched closer so that the plumbing itself is not under strain, and it releases the closer to pull the valve shut when water is detected on the floor. That water detector? A sugar cube that holds a small lever up so that its other end holds down the release cable. 1/16" cable. Another light cable runs from the ball valve through a plastic guide to pull the gas valve shut, too.

It works. A few drops of water on it and that sugar cube collapses and the tank is shut off instantly. I built another to work the ball valve on the water inlet line where it enters the basement. If a line broke somewhere the water would eventually reach it and trigger the closer. I set the damper screws on the closers so that the valves don't get banged shut.

There are electronic devices that use a small battery-powered motor to close the valve. An electronic water-sensing doodad is on the floor to detect resistance changes when it gets wet, and triggers the shutoff. They cost money, and rely on batteries that can be forgotten. Creating stuff is fun, anyway.
Click to expand...
got a picture?
 
I use a “dumb” one connected to my home automation system (mine is HomeSeer). The shutoff just responds to any condition I care to send it, so I can be as simple or as sophisticated as I like. Works great and never had a problem. We also happen to have a well, and in addition to the shutoff valve, we have a relay on the well pump, also allowing it to be managed by the home automation system.
 
My worry would be that the damage would already be done by the time the sensor realized there was a burst pipe. There aren’t many places inside my house where I could run the equivalent of garden hose at full pressure for more than a minute without there being some major damage and remediation needed. Those flow sensors also only detect burst pipes not leaks and take a little bit before the flow gets high enough to trigger.

We use preventative methods instead. The upstairs laundry is only run when we are home and it has a simple push/pull valve that turns the water off to the hoses when not in use. The toilets get new lines installed every 5-8 years and the water heater in the basement has a tray under it with pvc connected to a sump pit. If something does go wrong beyond that then that’s what insurance is for.
 
Do any of these come with a handful of remote water sensors for the floor?
I’ll like to put one in the utility room, another in the laundry room, etc etc
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Dang, Dan- that’s pretty imaginative.
I fear the mice would get my sugar cube here!
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I though ants might find mine, but they never get into the house. I dabbed a bit of Tabasco sauce on a cube, to try if ants found it.
 
I spent the extra money on a water well pressure switch that detects a broken line and will shut itself off. This winter I had a pipe freeze/burst (this is all in the backyard) and the fancy pressure switch didn't do a thing. I only noticed the issue when I could hear water trickling in the crawl space while sitting in the living room. Water well was still pumping water despite having been running for probably hours.
 
I replaced one of my water heaters a couple years ago. The new one has one of those things baked into it. Directions were clear to not get it wet, but I had just a tiny dribble come out of one of the pipes as I was doing the connections. Not enough to even wipe up as I recall. Collected in the overflow drip pan. Well, it was enough to trip the alarm eliminated all possibility of filling the water tank. I called the customer service folks and they walked me through pulling the sensing wire out of it's place so that it could dry.
 
What I really want does not seem to be available.
I want a smart device that will alert me when I'm not there.
My house is small enough that if water is running anywhere, I can hear it.
A 100dB alarm is no use if I'm 1000mi away, and also no help if I'm home.
I don't trust the tech that goes into the flow/pressure monitors; that's just me.
I want one that senses water on the floor and turns off the water and tells me what is going on.
And that I can control remotely.
No subscriptions.
A well-known plumbing brand is preferred, not an asian company that is going to orphan the product next year.
This one is close except for the last item...and it's unavailable.

 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What I really want does not seem to be available.
I want a smart device that will alert me when I'm not there.
My house is small enough that if water is running anywhere, I can hear it.
A 100dB alarm is no use if I'm 1000mi away, and also no help if I'm home.
I don't trust the tech that goes into the flow/pressure monitors; that's just me.
I want one that senses water on the floor and turns off the water and tells me what is going on.
And that I can control remotely.
No subscriptions.
A well-known plumbing brand is preferred, not an asian company that is going to orphan the product next year.
This one is close except for the last item...and it's unavailable.

Click to expand...
There's all kinds of Alexa/Google/Whatever compatible water detectors and shutoff valves. Get as many as you need and create routines to send notifications and automatically shut off the water.
 
Lindberg said:
There's all kinds of Alexa/Google/Whatever compatible water detectors and shutoff valves. Get as many as you need and create routines to send notifications and automatically shut off the water.
Click to expand...
well, thank you - I will research your idea further.
 
Not to be a Luddite, but what about just putting a valve on your incoming line and shut it off when your are going to be away for a while? No offense intended but I can’t help but feel your concern may be more than the risk of it happening warrants. Granted I’ve never owned a newer home (and judging by how most newer stuff does seem to just crap out/ not last like the old stuff it may be a legitimate concern) but in the last 40 years I have had a couple plumbing failures in my old house… they started like condensation on an old galvanized pipe from the 1950’s and after a few months made a tiny mist spray that mostly evaporated before reaching the ground. ZERO catastrophic failures.
 
Flatiowa said:
Not to be a Luddite, but what about just putting a valve on your incoming line and shut it off when your are going to be away for a while?
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That’s what I’m doing now, just trying to improve the situation.

Flatiowa said:
ZERO catastrophic failures.
Click to expand...
You must be living right, if I said such a thing sure as shootin I’d have a major blowout next week!
 
Flatiowa said:
Not to be a Luddite, but what about just putting a valve on your incoming line and shut it off when your are going to be away for a while? No offense intended but I can’t help but feel your concern may be more than the risk of it happening warrants. Granted I’ve never owned a newer home (and judging by how most newer stuff does seem to just crap out/ not last like the old stuff it may be a legitimate concern) but in the last 40 years I have had a couple plumbing failures in my old house… they started like condensation on an old galvanized pipe from the 1950’s and after a few months made a tiny mist spray that mostly evaporated before reaching the ground. ZERO catastrophic failures.
Click to expand...
Stuff happens. I had the main line into the kitchen crawlspace break (not even cold weather). Just old iron pipe. Came home and heard what sounded like natural gas coming out full bore, but there was no smell. I went and shut off the gas valve outside first thinking that's what it was, but the sound continued. I then removed the crawlspace access door and saw water spraying up and hitting the bottom of the floor/supports. Was able to shut off the water and have a plumber run a new line from outside. No damage for us because it was in the crawl space, but if that occurred in the house it would have been an absolute mess.
 
Flatiowa said:
Not to be a Luddite, but what about just putting a valve on your incoming line and shut it off when your are going to be away for a while?
Click to expand...
Most houses will have that. I turn the water off if we're going away, and I turn the water heater burner off too, and open a kitchen tap a bit to avoid the negative pressures in the system that result as the heater's water cools and contracts. The old water heaters had a glass lining to prevent corrosion, and the vacuum could pull the lining off the tank walls. I have wondered if the vacuum could get strong enough to cause the tank to buckle a little.

Lots of air comes out of the taps after the pressure is turned on again.
 
Flatiowa said:
Not to be a Luddite, but what about just putting a valve on your incoming line and shut it off when your are going to be away for a while?
Click to expand...
I second "stuff happens." We pull the plug on the water pump when away, but an overzealous yardman likes to keep certain plants well watered year round. One time he not only forgot to unplug the pump, but also the left open the hose bib to the hose with a nozzle. The hose had a small leak, but given a few days, it drained a cistern of 12,000 gallons of water, and then the pump ran dry and failed.
Flatiowa said:
ZERO catastrophic failures.
Click to expand...
A charmed life. We came back from a two week vacation to flooded flooring due to a toilet float valve failure. Luckily, that house was on a slab, so mostly just flooring replacement. A month later, a second toilet float valve failed while we were out for dinner. Less damage, but still. I preemptively replaced the third and final float valve in that home. ;)
 
Hokay. Finally took some pictures of my water shutoff. This is the one on the water heater.

1724193406603.jpeg
At the top is a triangular aluminum bracket that clamps to the incoming water line and a line that tees off from it. The clamps are cut from delrin. You can't see them in the picture. The long white thing is the heavy-duty screen door closer cylinder, and on its bottom end is a machined aluminum cup that has a setscrew to keep it on the cylinder, and two bolts go into tapped threads to carry the strain-relieving/latching mechanism. This avoids any constant load on the plumbing, and allows a latch that is easily held by light tension on the cable. The valve is open in this pic, with the cylinder extended. Its internal spring is under compression.
1724193673001.jpeg

Two cables run from the mechanism. The tight one on the right goes to the water detector on the floor. The other, with slack in it, is for shutting off the gas burner. Both run through a crude guide cut from delrin.

1724193479364.jpeg

Here the mechanism has shut the water valve off. The cylinder is rigged so that it bottoms just as the valve reaches full closed, avoiding, again, mechanical stress on the plumbing. The hard water here (calcium and magnesium salts) eat the copper, weakening it, so I didn't want to bust things prematurely.

1724193500174.jpeg

Here I am reopening the valve and getting ready to relatch the mechanism. I opened the valve using the blackish lever, which stretched the door closer, and when I put the camera down I will stick a big cotter pin into holes that line up in the struts and latch, to hold it while I get down and reattach the cable to the water detector. The pin has a red streamer on it so I don't forget to remove it immediately after the detector is reattached. Aircraft maintenance practice. Long red streamers on stuff that MUST be removed before flight.

The hook angle is critical. You don't want it to self-hook. It needs to let go if it isn't restrained by the trigger cable, so the angle and surface finish has to be right.

1724193559660.jpeg

The fancy, hi-tech water detector. A lever cut from aluminum plate and pivoted between two brackets of aluminum, which are screwed to the concrete floor via cheap drywall plastic anchors pounded into 1/4" holes drilled in the concrete. The second bolt is both a stop and has a spacer that keeps the brackets lined up. The important part of the detector is a sugar cube you can see under the left end of the lever. It's right on the concrete, and a few drops of water will cause it to fail and release the lever, which has a headless bolt in its other end that retains the triggering cable. The bracket's angled ends guide the water to the cube. You can see aluminum dams I made and screwed and sealed to the floor to catch and direct the earliest moisture toward the detector. More drywall anchors there. The dams go all the way around the tank. Just out of sight on the left is a floor drain that goes to the sewer line via a trap.

1724193606714.jpeg

Another delrin guide and an aluminum lever machined to fit the gas valve. You might recognize the #12-10 yellow crimp terminals as cable ends. Not much tension on the cable, as folding over the end of the cable a half-inch or so, sticking that into the terminal and crimping it holds it really well. The small aluminum cable clamps I made for rigging purposes.

1724193627615.jpeg

Here, the mechanism has closed the gas valve. It only goes to the pilot position, since pilot heat won't be any problem even on a drained tank, and because that knob has to be depressed to turn the valve completely off, further mechanism would be necessary to do that. More work that it was worth.

The crimp terminal here grabs the spring wire I unwound and doubled for the purpose. I see that my yellow insulator has fallen off. The spring is to prevent any undue strain on the valve knob. It is plastic, after all. The clamping screw in the lever has a knurled head, and finger-tight is all that is needed.

The other shutoff I made is on the house's incoming water line, which comes up from the concrete floor. The water meter is just above that valve, so the mechanism is inverted, cylinder on the bottom, pulling on the lever positioned on the appropriate side of the valve. The cylinder bracketry mounts on the wall.


Does it all make sense?
 
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