How do perform short field landings for practical test

MauleSkinner said:
We’ll, there ya go. If you’re going to do something different than the ASM you’re gonna get a different result. If you teach That technique primacy kicks in, and by the time they get to me pilots will continue busting check rides and Destroying airplanes in landing overruns.
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Not if they actually understand the technique.
 
RyanB said:
I’ve used the technique for every check ride I’ve taken that required an accuracy landing and passed on the first attempt. Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
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Yeah but we also disagree on what constitutes an accuracy landing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The one the AFH describes for short field landings (the subject of this thread), using the definition of aiming point the the AFH uses for the landing tasks (as opposed to landing hot from an ILS on an ATP checkride).
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Like I said if you use something other than The manufactures procedure you’re going to get a different result. That doesn’t matter whether you’re differing from 172 procedure or a jet procedure. Nobody said anything about hot landings.

And I disagree that the AFH is different from the manufacture procedure.
 
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do you want to be able to use the plane again? Whether you do or don’t, those are totally different techniques. I kid….
 
midlifeflyer said:
There are many of these. There are even older manuals which have next to nothing. Just try to find an emergency procedure in a 1965 Mooney M20C manual. Does that mean you just die when the DPE pulls the power on you? Or get to say, "well the manual doesn't contain a procedure so you can't test me on it!"?

In the case of the short field tasks, if you want something more modern, there's no short field checklist in the checklists for the Diamond DA40, not even the latest revision of the Jet A diesel FA40NG. As @MauleSkinner said, the answer is in the performance tables. In the case of other tasks with no POH reference, it's the reason for those References at the beginning of each task (including the Airplane Flying Handbook). When you don't have a POH way, you use the AFH way.

But you have me curious - the oldest Cherokee manuals I've seen (1964 Cherokee 140 revised in 1973) do talk about short field landing procedures (it's actually the same in their newer models). What do you have?
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This is what it gives us - Pg 124
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Note that there are no target speeds, no flare height, and no described difference between short and soft landings (which are decidedly different).

This is what it gives us for takeoff - again, no targets speeds nor difference between short and soft-field T/Os.

1721247470551.png

 
RyanB said:
I’m confused how that’s incorrect. If you’re flying a stabilized approach to your touchdown point during an accuracy landing, you will overshoot. The transition has to begin prior to reaching that point, I’m not sure why there’s so much confusion here. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. @MauleSkinner
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Where is the aiming point for this aircraft then? The picture shows the airplane in a constant stabilized glidepath, with no floating, all the way to touch down to a point on the runway. I'm going to call that point the touchdown point. I don't see in this graphic that the airplane is ever at any time approaching the runway towards a point other than the touchdown point. So it makes me think that on a short field landing your aiming point is ALSO your touchdown point. The ACS supports this because it calls for "minimum float" which is what this graphic implies.

My idea on how to accomplish this is to progressively reduce power while pitching up so as to maintain glidepath after clearing the obstacle. So you are integrating the flare in to the descent. By the time you reach the runway you should be at or near the stalling speed and you should touch down right at the point where your glidepath is taking you. In other words you are touching down at your aiming point which is also your touchdown point.

Like this:
Short-Field Landing 2.png
 
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FinalApproach said:
How are you touching down AT your aiming point for a normal landing?
How/why are you touching down BEFORE your aiming point for a short field landing?
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Exactly my thoughts. Suppose I’ve never seen it demonstrated this way from any instructor I’ve encountered.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Where does the ACS talk about touchdown relative to your aiming point?
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The ACS makes no mention of an aiming point for either a normal landing or a short-field landing. It only mentions touchdown point.

However, the AFH does mention aiming point and as you know it explains that for a normal landing, you should use an aiming point which precedes your touchdown point to account for floating. For a short-field landing, the AFH makes no mention at all of an aiming point and the graphic for a short-field in the AFH implies there is no floating at all. In addition, the ACS explicitly mentions touching down with "minimum float" for a short-field landing which supports what the AFH says.

Part of my question is if I should be using an aiming point that precedes my touchdown point when doing short field landings and, if so, how far prior to my touchdown point should my aiming point be?

If I'm not using an aiming point that precedes my touchdown point, is that because my aiming point IS ALSO my touchdown point? If so, how do I fly the aircraft to achieve this minimum float the way the AFH describes it.
 
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FinalApproach said:
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Where is the aiming point for this aircraft then? The picture shows the airplane in a constant stabilized glidepath, with no floating, all the way to touch down to a point on the runway.
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As the caption states, that is a diagram whose purpose is to illustrate a stabilized approach, not a landing flare.

You are over-analyzing and experts arguing with each other in this thread isn't going to help you. Go practice it. The ACS does not care about the relationship between your aiming point and your touchdown point. It only cares about your touchdown point. Anything else is technique.
 
dmspilot said:
As the caption states, that is a diagram whose purpose is to illustrate a stabilized approach, not a landing flare.

You are over-analyzing and experts arguing with each other in this thread isn't going to help you. Go practice it. The ACS does not care about the relationship between your aiming point and your touchdown point. It only cares about your touchdown point. Anything else is technique.
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Ok. Got it. So the aircraft in that illustration is gliding towards an aiming point. And there is still expected to be somewhat of a float prior to touchdown, only that the float is "minimal" as compared to a normal landing.

In other words there are still separate aiming and touchdown points. The fact that the AFH completely omitted any discussion of aiming point and touchdown point, while showing a picture of aircraft not-flaring/floating at all, is what confused me. But I get it now, that picture displays the approach phase only and not the landing.

I will certainly go up and try these again. I'l plan on flying a stabilized, partial power approach down to the runway at 61 knots. I'm going to maintain 61 knots until entering ground effect right at my aiming point (about 20 feet above the runway). At this point my power will be pulled to idle and I will begin to flare and float. I'm going to try to touch down at a preselected touchdown point about maybe 300 feet in front of my aiming point (instead of the usual 400-500 feet I use for normal landings since my approach speed is 65 knots for normal landings).

I won't bother with pretending there are any obstacles on the approach path and I will not follow the POH procedure to start progressively pulling power once clear of the imaginary 50 foot obstacle. I will simply fly a normal approach and landing, except I will do it at 61 knots instead of 65, and I will expect to float a little bit less distance.

That is my understanding of how to do it for a practical test. My impression is that it's done a little differently out in the real world, but I'm happy to just pass my test for now.
 
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FinalApproach said:
The ACS makes no mention of an aiming point for either a normal landing or a short-field landing. It only mentions touchdown point.

The AFH explains that, for a normal landing, you should use an aiming point which precedes your touchdown point to account for floating. For a short-field landing, the AFH makes no mention at all of an aiming point and the graphic for a short-field in the AFH implies there is no floating at all.

Part of my question is if I should be using an aiming point that precedes my touchdown point when doing short field landings and, if so, how far prior to my touchdown point should my aiming point be?

If I'm not using an aiming point that precedes my touchdown point, does that mean my aiming point IS ALSO my touchdown point? if so, how do I fly the aircraft to achieve this?
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This is why it’s important to actually fly an airplane prior to taking your checkride. ;)

If your aiming point is the 1000 foot markers, where do you touchdown on a normal landing, and where do you touchdown on a Shortfield landing?

Once you establish those relationships Using your techniques, you can adjust your aiming point to touchdown where do you want to.
 
MauleSkinner said:
This is why it’s important to actually fly an airplane prior to taking your checkride. ;)

If your aiming point is the 1000 foot markers, where do you touchdown on a normal landing, and where do you touchdown on a Shortfield landing?

Once you establish those relationships Using your techniques, you can adjust your aiming point to touchdown where do you want to.
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For a normal landing, I usually touch down at the 1000 foot markers and I aim for the 500 foot markers. Carrying an approach speed of 65 knots into ground effect usually makes me float about 500 foot.

For a short-field landing, I have also been trying to touch down at the 1000 foot markers, but how I've been accomplishing that has been very confusing. My instructor has had me do it with and without an imaginary 50 foot obstacle at the runway threshold. I've tried gliding it all the way down to the 1000 foot markers on a stabilized glidepath (and touching down on them without any floating and it worked just fine and wasn't hard). I've also done it by selecting an aiming point about 400 feet prior to the 1000 foot markers and floating to the 1000 foot markers. We've also done the Chop and Drop method after clearing the imaginary 50 foot obstacle. In that case the plane gets pretty un-stabilized but it does get down and land fast.

I just didn't know what the best technique is for the practical test. I think I know now.
 
StraightnLevel said:
What have you guys seen for DPEs expectations of how "soft" a "short" landing must be? A day or two ago, an instructor called my short-field practice a "carrier landing" - it was dead-on the the target point, and firm. Not slam-the-main-gear-through-the-wing-and-explode-the-tires firm, but decidedly not a "soft" landing. My approach is to get into ground effect about one center stripe before the target spot (the 1,000' marks), then cut power to drop the plane onto the target. With full flaps in a Cherokee, it works quite consistently.

So, my question is whether it's OK to be a bit firm in order to nail the target landing spot? Will a DPE accept that approach?
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All my short field landings during check rides were pretty firm. I didn't bounce and the dpes never said anything.
 
FinalApproach said:
For a normal landing, I usually touch down at the 1000 foot markers and I aim for the 500 foot markers. Carrying an approach speed of 65 knots into ground effect usually makes me float about 500 foot.

For a short-field landing, I have also been trying to touch down at the 1000 foot markers, but how I've been accomplishing that has been very confusing. My instructor has had me do it with and without an imaginary 50 foot obstacle at the runway threshold. I've tried gliding it all the way down to the 1000 foot markers on a stabilized glidepath (and touching down on them without any floating and it worked just fine and wasn't hard). I've also done it by selecting an aiming point about 400 feet prior to the 1000 foot markers and floating to the 1000 foot markers. We've also done the Chop and Drop method after clearing the imaginary 50 foot obstacle. In that case the plane gets pretty un-stabilized but it does get down and land fast.

I just didn't know what the best technique is for the practical test. I think I know now.
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I guess I could go back to my first question: if your normal technique using the short field speed gets you down on the runway with minimal float why change techniques?
 
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Another part of it is #1 is a precision landing procedure i.e. touch down at a specific point as in what the ACS specifies.
#2 and the the Cessna POH says is probably shorter approach allowing you to touch down sooner if the runway allows you to do so, which they commonly do when they have obstacle near the end of the runway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
MauleSkinner said:
I guess I could go back to my first question: if your normal technique using the short field speed gets you down on the runway with minimal float why change techniques?
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Because I don't consider floating 300-500 feet to be "minimal float".

Take a look at how Embry-Riddle presents the short-field approach and landing. They clearly show that the plane flies a direct glide path down to a touchdown point with zero floating. Their verbal instructions in that video even tell you to fly it that way, by progressively pulling power and pitching up so as to maintain a constant glidepath down to your touchdown point. They explicitly contrasted it with a normal approach and landing which shows the plane floating during the roundout and flare and imply to NOT do it the same way as a normal landing. Then I noticed that the AFH presents a short-field in the same way as Embry-Riddle does, but I didn't realize that the AFH is only showing you the approach segment but not the landing segment. On top of that I noticed that the ACS specifically mentions "minimal float".

I went up with my instructor and one time we did a short-field approach and landing directly down to a touchdown point maintaining a constant glide path with with almost zero float (like in the Embry-Riddle video) and I thought that's how it should be done.

However I began to ask questions because the procedure for a short-field approach and landing in the POH specifies doing it differently and it was my impression that the POH trumps the ACS and AFH. Since doing the procedure according to the POH causes me to float about 300-400 feet with an approach speed of 61 knots, I began to get confused as to what the hell is going on. I watched more videos about it and some of them mentioned using an aiming point which I thought that was something used for a normal landing only. But no those videos were talking about it in association with a short-field approach and landing, which I thought according to Embry-Riddle and the AFH the aiming point WAS the touchdown point, which confused me more. To be honest I am still not clear on what is officially the correct technique. The correct techniqe seems to further vary based on whether you are doing a short-field on a practical test vs a short-field in the real world.

Whenever I brought these question up with my instructor he just kept telling me that it doesn't really matter how I do it and to just make sure I hit my spot and do my after touchdown procedure (flaps, brakes, elevator, aileron). I guess ultimately he is right.

Do you agree that some of this information is contradictory and at least understand why I was confused?
 
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brcase said:
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Another part of it is #1 is a precision landing procedure i.e. touch down at a specific point as in what the ACS specifies.
#2 and the the Cessna POH says is probably shorter approach allowing you to touch down sooner if the runway allows you to do so, which they commonly do when they have obstacle near the end of the runway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Yes. When I did it the #2 method, where we chopped power and pitched down to maintain 61 knots until entering ground effect, I noticed we touched down earlier than method #1. So I guess that picture isn't even accurate in terms of glide path if you chopped power all the way immediately after clearing your obstacle.
 
FinalApproach said:
Because I don't consider floating 300-500 feet to be "minimal float".

Take a look at how Embry-Riddle presents the short-field approach and landing. They clearly show that the plane flies a direct glide path down to a touchdown point with zero floating. Their verbal instructions in that video even tell you to fly it that way, by progressively pulling power and pitching up so as to maintain a constant glidepath down to your touchdown point. They explicitly contrasted it with a normal approach and landing which shows the plane floating during the roundout and flare and imply to NOT do it the same way as a normal landing. Then I noticed that the AFH presents a short-field in the same way as Embry-Riddle does, but I didn't realize that the AFH is only showing you the approach segment but not the landing segment. On top of that I noticed that the ACS specifically mentions "minimal float".

I went up with my instructor and one time we did a short-field approach and landing directly down to a touchdown point maintaining a constant glide path with with almost zero float (like in the Embry-Riddle video) and I thought that's how it should be done.

However I began to ask questions because the procedure for a short-field approach and landing in the POH specifies doing it differently and it was my impression that the POH trumps the ACS and AFH. Since doing the procedure according to the POH causes me to float about 300-400 feet with an approach speed of 61 knots, I began to get confused as to what the hell is going on. I watched more videos about it and some of them mentioned using an aiming point which I thought that was something used for a normal landing only. But no those videos were talking about it in association with a short-field approach and landing, which I thought according to Embry-Riddle and the AFH the aiming point WAS the touchdown point, which confused me more. To be honest I am still not clear on what is officially the correct technique. The correct techniqe seems to further vary based on whether you are doing a short-field on a practical test vs a short-field in the real world.

Whenever I brought these question up with my instructor he just kept telling me that it doesn't really matter how I do it and to just make sure I hit my spot and do my after touchdown procedure (flaps, brakes, elevator, aileron). I guess ultimately he is right.

Do you agree that some of this information is contradictory and at least understand why I was confused?
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Yes, I agree there’s contradictory information out there (and here)…

It really doesn’t matter what you (or I) consider to be minimal float…it’s the FAA’s definition that’s controlling. If your instructor won’t give you further guidance, I’d suggest asking your DPE.

I will also suggest going back and reading Post 61 again.
 
midlifeflyer said:
why would they tell me a flare height?
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One of the things people sometimes don't realize is, at one time, there was an assumption in manual checklists that pilot knew stuff that more modern manuals assume they don't. How else can one account for such things as checklist items to add power for takeoff? Take that older Cherokee manual. It has a landing distance vs density altitude graph which specifies 40 degrees of flaps, no wind, level runway, for a short field at two different weights. Then, just before the "best technique" paragraph @StraightnLevel posted, it explains landings in general. The underlying assumption is, what more do you really need?
1721306620856.png
 
Here's the relevant part of the ACS
PA.IV.F.S5 Select and aim for a suitable touchdown point considering the wind, landing surface, and obstructions.
PA.IV.F.S6 Establish the recommended approach and landing configuration and airspeed, and adjust pitch attitude and power as required to maintain a stabilized approach.
PA.IV.F.S7 Maintain manufacturer’s published approach airspeed or in its absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots with gust factor applied.
PA.IV.F.S8 Maintain directional control and appropriate crosswind correction throughout the approach and landing.
PA.IV.F.S9 Make smooth, timely, and correct control application during the round out and touchdown.
PA.IV.F.S10 Touch down at a proper pitch attitude within 200 feet beyond or on the specified point, threshold markings, or runway numbers, with no side drift, minimum float, and with the airplane’s longitudinal axis aligned with and over runway centerline.

Pretty sure you pass if you do what's highlighted in red without doing other stuff that scares the DPE. I just focused flying the plane to hit the target, coming a bit slower than a normal landing to minimize float.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Here's a question: The ACS says:

Use manufacturer’s recommended procedures for airplane configuration and braking

The POH for the Cherokee I am training in says nothing about soft- and short-field landing other than a loose recommendation for the use of flaps. How do you meet this requirement when there isn't a recommended procedure?
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I posted it on POA before but my Favorite is the Bellanca Cruisemaster Manual. The landing section says something like "Your Bellanca Cruisemaster lands conventionally, other pilots will be impressed with your landings"

I guess that means if you don't impress the DPE you didn't use the manufactures recommendations.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I posted it on POA before but my Favorite is the Bellanca Cruisemaster Manual. The landing section says something like "Your Bellanca Cruisemaster lands conventionally, other pilots will be impressed with your landings"

I guess that means if you don't impress the DPE you didn't use the manufactures recommendations.

Brian
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This Comanche didn't follow the Piper POH - so did he really land? ;):)

 
MauleSkinner said:
Yes, I agree there’s contradictory information out there (and here)…

It really doesn’t matter what you (or I) consider to be minimal float…it’s the FAA’s definition that’s controlling. If your instructor won’t give you further guidance, I’d suggest asking your DPE.

I will also suggest going back and reading Post 61 again.
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Last question, what is the FAA's definition of minimal float? I can not find any specification.
 
FinalApproach said:
Last question, what is the FAA's definition of minimal float? I can not find any specification.
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The FAA does specify the maximum distance to touch down after the aim point, perhaps that will suffice as the definition. My ancient copy of the PTS say at or within 200 feet beyond a specified point.
 
FinalApproach said:
Last question, what is the FAA's definition of minimal float? I can not find any specification.
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It’s stated specifically in the ACS that’s been posted several times now.

Within 200 ft of the specified point or touchdown zone.

How will the DPE know where you intend to land? He’ll either a) tell you or b) ask you where you intend to touchdown.
 
FinalApproach said:
Last question, what is the FAA's definition of minimal float? I can not find any specification.
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They don’t specifically define it, probably for very good reasons…different airplanes and different techniques will vary in what would be considered normal float for a short field landing. If you’re using appropriate speed and technique for your airplane, you’ll be fine.
 
TCABM said:
It’s stated specifically in the ACS that’s been posted several times now.

Within 200 ft of the specified point or touchdown zone.
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That doesn’t state how much float is allowed. It states where the touchdown can be, regardless of the amount of float.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That doesn’t state how much float is allowed. It states where the touchdown can be, regardless of the amount of float.
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Eh, the distance between the specified point and actual touchdown pointis the max allowable distance (200ft) for all things, to include float.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
TCABM said:
Eh, the distance between the specified point and actual touchdown pointis the max allowable distance (200ft) for all things, to include float.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
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If they meant it to say that, they would have used “aiming point” instead of “specified point,” or somehow stated that the applicant should aim at and touch down within 200 feet beyond the specified point.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If they meant it to say that, they would have used “aiming point” instead of “specified point,” or somehow stated that the applicant should aim at and touch down within 200 feet beyond the specified point.
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The specified point is where you say wheels are going to touch. You can't be short of that point and you can't be more than 200 feet past it. Pretty simple.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If they meant it to say that, they would have used “aiming point” instead of “specified point,” or somehow stated that the applicant should aim at and touch down within 200 feet beyond the specified point.
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I never said aiming point. Again, the ACS seems pretty clear; touchdown within 200ft of a designated spot.

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The opposite of minimum floating is excessive floating. Not being able to touchdown within 200 feet of a specified point would seem to qualify as excessive floating, making the requirement of "minimum floating" redundant. If that's not what they mean, then the term is subjective and should be removed from a document whose purpose is to establish objective standards.
 
TCABM said:
I never said aiming point. Again, the ACS seems pretty clear; touchdown within 200ft of a designated spot.

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Your response was to a question about how far you can float. The touchdown requirement is the end of the float, but says nothing about where it begins. There is no set maximum float distance allowed.
 
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