PA-31 down near KALB

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Albany Tom

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Albany Tom
I don't have much info. Happened this morning a couple of miles from the airport, believe it was Canadian registered, possibly a charter repositioning back. Other than the accident, a nice day here, clear sky, sunny, not really windy.

Albany is a pretty quiet class C. Friendly ATC, no weird obstructions on the way in, but it is surrounded all the way around by houses and businesses.


edit, adding local news with security video. If you can get through the ads, the 2 second security video is at about 1:30.

cbs6albany.com

Security video captures deadly Colonie plane crash

Tragic video caught on a Colonie business security camera shows the moments of a deadly plane crash just miles from the Albany International Airport.On Monday,
cbs6albany.com cbs6albany.com
 
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A very tragic accident with a 34 year old pilot with a recent ATP rating. She was highly experienced in many flying environments.
Too many accidents recently. :(
 
Will a piston start and run-up properly with an avgas/jet fuel blend? Is it similar to water contamination?
 
Very sad RIP condolences
 
Hengelo said:
Will a piston start and run-up properly with an avgas/jet fuel blend? Is it similar to water contamination?
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It will run ok till shortly after takeoff. Then the extra btu's will quickly melt everything in the cylinders.
 
Jet fuel added to the tank is not in the fuel lines. The start and runup is using fuel in the lines, valves, gascolator. The first of the mixed is not there until full power for a short time, just about the time you are ready to turn on course. The first engine run up is first dead, so the pilot thinks they have an ordinary engine out. If jet is the answer, she shares the blame with the fueler. Sympathy for both, and their families.

Double failures after a refuel does point that way.
 
This is very near me. Here is what the NTSB said in their presser:
“The airplane flew on the runway heading for about 1.5 miles before turning left and left again. Of note, the airplane seemed to have difficulty gaining altitude and then went nearly straight up 800 feet and a loop then turned left did at least one roll and then the final impact,” National Transportation Safety Board Air Safety Inspector Lynn Spencer said. “This flight path is typical of an extreme loss of control situation.”
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So it doesn’t really sound like misfueling. I wondered either a control lock left on (less likely) or maybe something from the aerial survey equipment getting into flight control cables? It’s a very odd description of the accident.
 
That description would not merit a B in English class.
 
Preliminary report is up for this. I'll see if I can attach. Both engines spinning, aircraft didn't exceed 800ft AGL, aircraft fully fueled before takeoff, fuel truck examination showed no contaminants, elevator trim consistent with full nose up. The flight description was bizarre, and I didn't completely follow the logic of their description of control surface continuity...wasn't clear if they knew over-stresses were caused by emergency crews or the flight.
 

Attachments

  • Report_ERA24FA262.pdf
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Albany Tom said:
Preliminary report is up for this. I'll see if I can attach. Both engines spinning, aircraft didn't exceed 800ft AGL, aircraft fully fueled before takeoff, fuel truck examination showed no contaminants, elevator trim consistent with full nose up. The flight description was bizarre, and I didn't completely follow the logic of their description of control surface continuity...wasn't clear if they knew over-stresses were caused by emergency crews or the flight.
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Full nose-up trim? Didn’t know what to expect with this one, but certainly didn’t expect that.
 
Zeldman said:
Possibly runaway electric trim.?? I have had that a couple times in a Navajo.
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I wondered that, too, but didn't know how likely it could be in that aircraft. And I wondered if the rolls were intentional, as some sort of last ditch way to avoid a low level stall if she couldn't hold it against the trim and couldn't manually dial the trim out fast enough. I don't know if a pa-31 is wired somewhat similar to a pa-28...if so I'd wonder if the master switch was off as the fastest way to stop electric trim from running. On an Archer I flew with electric trim, the two other shut offs were the breaker and a little toggle switch, both on the right side of the plane.
 
MountainDude said:
Is it not possible to overpower it with your hands?
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Yes it is. I once grabbed the trim wheel with my thumb and forefinger and stopped it until I was able to disable it.

Another time during a checkride the trim took off. I pushed the yoke forward and held it thinking the check airman was doing something. When we agreed it was an unplanned trim runaway, i disabled the electric trim and continued the checkride.
 
Zeldman said:
Yes it is. I once grabbed the trim wheel with my thumb and forefinger and stopped it until I was able to disable it.

Another time during a checkride the trim took off. I pushed the yoke forward and held it thinking the check airman was doing something. When we agreed it was an unplanned trim runaway, i disabled the electric trim and continued the checkride.
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How much force did it take to keep the nose down until you could dial the trim out? I'll admit to taking off, once, in a PA-28 with the trim way wrong, and it was a lot, but it was manageable.
 
A word to the wise, in case you never thought about it before: There are two times a lot of nose-up trim is beneficial, during a steep turn or in the landing configuration on short final. SO, when fate gives you a bunch of Un-commanded nose up trim, roll into a steep turn while you configure for short final, i.e., 1.3 Vso and full flaps. Then, straighten up and limp to the nearest suitable airport.
 
I swear the longer I fly the more I realize how little I know.

dtuuri said:
A word to the wise, in case you never thought about it before: There are two times a lot of nose-up trim is beneficial, during a steep turn or in the landing configuration on short final. SO, when fate gives you a bunch of Un-commanded nose up trim, roll into a steep turn while you configure for short final, i.e., 1.3 Vso and full flaps. Then, straighten up and limp to the nearest suitable airport.
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Albany Tom said:
How much force did it take to keep the nose down until you could dial the trim out? I'll admit to taking off, once, in a PA-28 with the trim way wrong, and it was a lot, but it was manageable.
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It was manageable. I initially used both hands but eventually pushed with one hand while searching for the CB. It occurred during the climbout phase, so I was still adjusting trim when it happened.
 
The first response if you do not know where the proper CB is, simply shut off the master. Then find the CB, turn the master back on and reset the trim. If you have mdern nav, the mgenta line is still there, on internal battery. If primative, you now have a data input challenge, without the autopilot to help, but the plane was quickly back under pilot control.
 
Zeldman said:
It was manageable. I initially used both hands but eventually pushed with one hand while searching for the CB. It occurred during the climbout phase, so I was still adjusting trim when it happened.
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She was on climb out, too. Maybe just couldn't get it under control before stall/spin. Sad. Re magenta line - it was an otherwise beautiful day here, in the morning but daytime.
 
Albany Tom said:
She was on climb out, too. Maybe just couldn't get it under control before stall/spin. Sad. Re magenta line - it was an otherwise beautiful day here, in the morning but daytime.
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Another thought. It has been several years since I flew a Navajo, but I seem to remember that with main tanks(inboard) full and the aux tanks (outboard)1/2 or less and no weight in the back the CG may be a little forward of the max forward limit. I rarely flew the Navajo without passengers and/or cargo in the back, but when I did I put the 90 pound survival pack in the rear most cargo to get the CG within limits, albeit real close to the max forward CG. So if it was a runaway trim to a stall, my thoughts are that with a full nose up trim and the plane stalled then there just might not have been enough time to identify and verify the problem before running out of altitude to recover. Pure speculation though.
geezer said:
The first response if you do not know where the proper CB is, simply shut off the master.
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I knew where it was, I just wasn't going to pull a CB without first verifying what it does.
 
He's offering a possibility that I don't think was mentioned here, although I'm sure some have it in the back of their minds, and that's that this could be as simple as having the trim set wrong on takeoff. There's not a lot to go on here, and Juan isn't one to make things up or wildly speculate just to get clicks. Based on Zeldman's experience above, I'd think she'd be able to still hold it down, but maybe not.
 
Albany Tom said:
He's offering a possibility that I don't think was mentioned here, although I'm sure some have it in the back of their minds, and that's that this could be as simple as having the trim set wrong on takeoff. There's not a lot to go on here, and Juan isn't one to make things up or wildly speculate just to get clicks. Based on Zeldman's experience above, I'd think she'd be able to still hold it down, but maybe not.
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Yeah, that's what I understood. A single check list item missed could lead to a crash. Makes you think.
 
Zeldman said:
The barrel rolls baffle me. What would have caused that.??
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Vmc rolls with both engines running? Maybe it just dropped a wing each time it stalled, rolled all the way through and started climbing again? Like a corkscrew.
 
dtuuri said:
A word to the wise, in case you never thought about it before: There are two times a lot of nose-up trim is beneficial, during a steep turn or in the landing configuration on short final. SO, when fate gives you a bunch of Un-commanded nose up trim, roll into a steep turn while you configure for short final, i.e., 1.3 Vso and full flaps. Then, straighten up and limp to the nearest suitable airport.
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How does adding a steep turn to an already bad situation make it better? You are still loading the wing and increasing angle of attack. In a bank that is far worse. Cannot agree with this advice.
 
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Flying Keys said:
Vmc rolls with both engines running?
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With counter rotating engines I would like to think that would not be possible.

Then again we are speculating that both engines were developing full power. Possibly one engine did an uncommanded feather that went undiagnosed.??

All speculation at this point.
 
Albany Tom said:
He's offering a possibility that I don't think was mentioned here, although I'm sure some have it in the back of their minds, and that's that this could be as simple as having the trim set wrong on takeoff. There's not a lot to go on here, and Juan isn't one to make things up or wildly speculate just to get clicks. Based on Zeldman's experience above, I'd think she'd be able to still hold it down, but maybe not.
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It's a possibility. But so is runaway trim. He didn't offer that one up.

IF it was as simple as she forgot to reset trim before takeoff, she could have easily fixed that problem on the fly by either the electric trim on the yoke or the big wheel right next to her knee.
 
Salty said:
How does adding a steep turn to an already bad situation make it better? You are still loading the wing and increasing angle of attack. In a bank that is far worse. Cannot agree with this advice.
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C'mon Salty, you're a smart guy, thimk.
 
Zeldman said:
With counter rotating engines I would like to think that would not be possible.

Then again we are speculating that both engines were developing full power. Possibly one engine did an uncommanded feather that went undiagnosed.??

All speculation at this point.
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Is it a C/R? I read it was a PA-31-310, which are not counter-rotating.
 
IS it hard to override the trim by pushing down on the yoke on a twin?
 
francisco collazos said:
IS it hard to override the trim by pushing down on the yoke on a twin?
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It's doable, but can be challenging.

One possible scenario that would fit with the flight path described is that she noticed a trim problem as soon as she took off and the holding at 200-300' was likely the pilot holding the nose down/overiding the trim. The sudden climb to 800' and subsequent departure from controlled flight could have coincided with her either getting tired/losing her grip or losing control while trying to locate/reach the CB.
 
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