Altitude Directives in VFR Flight Following

WDD said:
yes
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Agree. Perhaps it was a non-elegant way of saying, "I didn't know you were changing altitudes." If you decide you need to deviate either laterally or vertically off of what you told ATC that you were planning to do, ATC would appreciate knowing about it. It makes a difference as far as traffic advisories go, and it also let's the controller update the computer to make sure your flight plan processes to the correct next sector/facility.
 
IIRC, the AIM recommends notifying ATC when you're going to change your VFR altitude.
 
Recommend courtesy to tell ATC - sure. Assigned altitude, need to ask permission to change altitude - no.
 
Palmpilot said:
IIRC, the AIM recommends notifying ATC when you're going to change your VFR altitude.
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And if an altitude is assigned (which is what the question sounded like) it means there’s a separation reason and you need to get the okay or it’s a deviation from the instructions.

Yes, if suddenly a cloud appears out of nowhere, apparently created right in front of you with no prior warning, you do what you need to.

Altitude not assigned, notifying of changes is courtesy.
Altitude not assigned but “advise prior to changes,” is instructed, notifying of changes in advance is required to give ATC an opportunity to say, “don’t.”
Altitude is assigned, obtaining permission for changes is required.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Altitude not assigned, notifying if changes is courtesy.
Altitude not assigned but “advise prior to changes,” is instructed, notifying of changes in advance is required to give ATC an opportunity to say, “don’t.”
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That's my understanding also. Unfortunately, I've had the experience of being barked at by ATC after changing altitudes (busy frequency) even though "advise prior to changes" had never been said.
 
JTFlyer said:
That's my understanding also. Unfortunately, I've had the experience of being barked at by ATC after changing altitudes (busy frequency) even though "advise prior to changes" had never been said.
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You can't be assigned an altitude while flying VFR.
 
And again - About to say same thing back at you. The only thing I’ve seen is someone posting about 91.123(b) which is all related to IFR clearances.

Fun fact. You can fly VFR XCountry from airport A in E airspace to airport B in E airspace and not have to talk to any ATC. So how can that be possible and still be required to take directions and altitude assignments from ATC?

I’m just putting this out there for people to consider.
I have no expectations of convincing some of the possibility there might be another way to look at this.

No shade to anyone. Fly safe
 
I see your point.
91.123 (a) is about clearances. (b) is just about following directions.

So while normally when flying VFR you’re not assigned an altitude, and you’re not even legally required to be in communication with ATC if you’re not in B, C, or D airspace and flying VFR, IF you are talking to them and they tell you anything - such as go to this altitude - you get to do that.

So what happens when you switch frequencies and simply stop talking to them?



§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATCclearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraftcontrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
 
WDD said:
I see your point.
91.123 (a) is about clearances. (b) is just about following directions.

So while normally when flying VFR you’re not assigned an altitude, and you’re not even legally required to be in communication with ATC if you’re not in B, C, or D airspace and flying VFR, IF you are talking to them and they tell you anything - such as go to this altitude - you get to do that.

So what happens when you switch frequencies and simply stop talking to them?



§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATCclearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraftcontrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
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midlifeflyer said:
I’m sure that was cited earlier in the thread. It makes no difference to the “I will do what I want and obeying an instruction in controlled airspace is a threat to my freedom” group.
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Probably.

I do admit I missed that letter, appreciate the repost. So you normally aren't assigned an altitude on VFR, but if you are communicating, and told something, you go fly it - even VFR. It does highlight the problem in my latter post about communication requirements; if you're not communicating, how do you get an instruction?
A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to communicate with A TC; however, if a pilot is communicating with A TC and ATC issues an instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.

I suppose you could legally switch frequencies and stop talking. At least that's what the NTSB report will show assuming the crash site is in decent enough shape they can recover your radio and see what your last frequency was.
 
WDD said:
So what happens when you switch frequencies and simply stop talking to them?
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Pretty much Post 15.
midlifeflyer said:
Bottom line is that 91.123(b) says that, “Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised”

That means in controlled airspace,ie, Class A, B, C, D, and E.

What happens if you do it anyway? Depends on how big a problem you cause. Most controllers will let it go with a mental, “what a jerk!” Create a problem and you might get a friendly call from the local FSDO.

Don’t like ATC keeping you out of the way of traffic? Don’t use Flight Following.

Specific reason for not wanting that altitude or that vector? Negotiate.
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The 7110 also talks about initiating SAR but that’s very unlikely since the haven’t lost your target so you haven’t really disappeared.
 
WDD said:
You can't be assigned an altitude while flying VFR.
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Yes you can, if you are in Class B airspace, Class C airspace, including the Outer Area, or a TRSA. ATC provides separation to VFR aircraft in these areas so must have the tools needed to effect separation, assignment of altitudes and vectors. Elsewhere it's just traffic advisories and safety alerts.
 
WDD said:
Probably.

I do admit I missed that letter, appreciate the repost. So you normally aren't assigned an altitude on VFR, but if you are communicating, and told something, you go fly it - even VFR. It does highlight the problem in my latter post about communication requirements; if you're not communicating, how do you get an instruction?
A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to communicate with A TC; however, if a pilot is communicating with A TC and ATC issues an instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.
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If you are not communicating, ATC will just have to deal with your lack of knowledge or situational awareness or love of silence and music, or whatever your good or bad reason. But even then, I'd bet from an ATC perspective, there's a difference between an primary target which from miles away appears to be heading toward an approach corridor and one they have been communicating with, is in the approach corridor now, and shuts off their radio without warning.

Personally, I never saw this as about rules, although there are rules. It's more about basic courtesy. If I'm not using flight following, I try to be situatable aware of the airspace around me. If I am, I figure if they are good enough to act as an extra set of eyes and be there in case of a problem, the very least I can do is be a good partner.
 
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Well, there can be sep in E for VFRs conducting practice IAPs as well but that’s a whole other issue than VFR FF in E.
 
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