Out of my comfort zone

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
So a student (hypothetically) inadvertently puts me into an extreme unusual attitude. What to do? Book learning ain’t enough. I decided that proper instruction would be wise. With some apprehension I signed up for the 5 hour basic acrobatic course at Patty Wagstaff’s Aviation Safety School at the St Augustine FL airport.
I just finished my first day, and I’m still collecting my thoughts about it.
I did 2 sessions today with an excellent instructor Ryan. The first 4 hours you do in a Super Decathlon and the last hour in an Extra 200. After a briefing we flew. I was impressed immediately as to how smooth and responsive the Decathlon is.
For most situations the way out of an unusual attitude is Look, Unload, Roll and Recover. We did a lot to get this ingrained. The morning flight we did power off straight ahead and turning stalls, unusual attitude recoveries, aileron rolls. Oh, the airspeed indicator and turn coordinator are covered the whole flight.
After lunch we did spins, wing overs and half Cuban eights.
After the 2nd half Cuban 8 I admit I needed a barf bag. I never felt bad or particularly queasy, but I just knew I needed one. One issue is the high temperature we’re all suffering with right now.
I never felt uncomfortable or scared on any of the maneuvers (as I thought I might). A good instructor helps in that regard. Inverted wasn’t a big deal, but I did not like the attitude and rotational speed of the spin. I told Ryan I needed to do more of those tomorrow.
Right now I need a good dinner (MANY choices for that in St Augustine) and a good night’s sleep. Then at it again at 8am.
Did I make a good decision on spending some time and money. I think so. There’s no way this doesn’t make you a better and safer pilot. That’s a good thing.
 

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I think that aerobatics or unusual attitudes training is a fantastic investment. I did a bunch with the RAF (Royal Air Force, not Recreational Aviation Foundation) very early in my flying career and I'm certain that it has made me a safer pilot.
 
I'd love to do a basic aerobatics course as well, even if simply for the experience of doing spins entries/recoveries. Being able to visualize what it looks like and feels like could help stave off the insipient phase later on in a critical moment.
 
Cool! I'm not a fan of aerobatics, but undergoing full Upset Recovery Training (with light aerobatics) is very high on my list. I did some at a school as a part of a checkout for a clipped wing cub, since they are known to spin easily. Spins, spirals, jammed trim scenarios, and falling leaf stalls. It was pretty good. The first spin I couldn't get myself to jam the rudder - I had to tell the instructor to do it for me. By the last one, I was able to overcome my aversion for adverse yaw and get into a spin without instructor input.
 
Lance F said:
Right now I need a good dinner (MANY choices for that in St Augustine)....
Click to expand...

Shrimp at O'Steens. That's a St. Augustine must-do if you've never been there. A tiny little place, nothing fancy, but the best shrimp you'll ever find.

O'Steen's Restaurant, St. Augustine - Seafood & Southern Dishes

O'Steen's Restaurant in St. Augustine, FL has been a go-to spot for locals and tourists since 1965. Come savor our renowned fried shrimp, seafood & homestyle southern dishes. View our menu online, we take to-go orders.
www.osteensrestaurant.com www.osteensrestaurant.com
 
Lance F said:
Did I make a good decision on spending some time and money. I think so. There’s no way this doesn’t make you a better and safer pilot. That’s a good thing.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I really want to do spin training one of these days.
 
I think aerobatic training is great, but I also think to a certain degree it will prepare you to handle unusual attitudes in a non-aerobatic airplane in the same way that competitive soaring will prepare you for an engine-out in a Cherokee six...meaning it will help reinforce the conceptual theories, but the practical response needs to be tailored to the aircraft in question. Spin recovery techniques vary quite a bit from one aircraft to another, and while the basic concepts apply across the board, the nuances of recovery differ greatly. Nevertheless, it's damn fun.
 
All training is beneficial,congrats should make you a more aware pilot
 
I’m impressed that you had the energy to post about it. I did an aerobatic course with two flights a day for 5 days and usually had just enough energy to drive home, eat supper, and fall asleep with my boots on at the end of each day.
 
Half Fast said:
Shrimp at O'Steens. That's a St. Augustine must-do if you've never been there. A tiny little place, nothing fancy, but the best shrimp you'll ever find.

O'Steen's Restaurant, St. Augustine - Seafood & Southern Dishes

O'Steen's Restaurant in St. Augustine, FL has been a go-to spot for locals and tourists since 1965. Come savor our renowned fried shrimp, seafood & homestyle southern dishes. View our menu online, we take to-go orders.
www.osteensrestaurant.com www.osteensrestaurant.com
Click to expand...
Went to Catch 27 on Charlotte St for dinner (before I saw this post). Food was excellent. Plan for Barley Republic tomorrow. Will catch O’Steens soon. Thanks.
 
Brad Z said:
I think aerobatic training is great, but I also think to a certain degree it will prepare you to handle unusual attitudes in a non-aerobatic airplane in the same way that competitive soaring will prepare you for an engine-out in a Cherokee six...meaning it will help reinforce the conceptual theories, but the practical response needs to be tailored to the aircraft in question. Spin recovery techniques vary quite a bit from one aircraft to another, and while the basic concepts apply across the board, the nuances of recovery differ greatly. Nevertheless, it's damn fun.
Click to expand...
I may respectfully disagree with your analogy. As a one time competition glider pilot who had to deal with a total engine failure in a Mooney, I believe the glider experience helped me a lot.
Even though spin recovery may vary between types having done some should lessen the startle factor and hopefully ingrain a technique that keeps me from pulling the wings off.
We did a number of base leg to final turn stall/spin scenarios. It happens fast. Now I know a lot better what causes it, can avoid doing it myself, can be watchful for student errors and teach it better.
 
Lance F said:
….
We did a number of base leg to final turn stall/spin scenarios. It happens fast. Now I know a lot better what causes it, can avoid doing it myself, can be watchful for student errors and teach it better.
Click to expand...
That will be beneficial in and of itself. It’s easy to say you can’t spin if you don’t stall, but understanding the inputs for a base to final stall allows you to recognize student errors early enough to intervene.

I remember doing level turning stalls in my student days and while I survived, it’s not a party trick I’ve seem on bfr’s since and not something I’d be comfortable teaching without a lot of work of my part, to include more than just basic CFI spin training.
 
Mike Goulian has an Upset Prevention & Recovery course very near to my location. This just encouraged me to make the call. Thank you for sharing your experience, Lance. Best of luck tomorrow!
 
Lance F said:
So a student (hypothetically) inadvertently puts me into an extreme unusual attitude. What to do? Book learning ain’t enough. I decided that proper instruction would be wise. With some apprehension I signed up for the 5 hour basic acrobatic course at Patty Wagstaff’s Aviation Safety School at the St Augustine FL airport.
I just finished my first day, and I’m still collecting my thoughts about it.
I did 2 sessions today with an excellent instructor Ryan. The first 4 hours you do in a Super Decathlon and the last hour in an Extra 200. After a briefing we flew. I was impressed immediately as to how smooth and responsive the Decathlon is.
For most situations the way out of an unusual attitude is Look, Unload, Roll and Recover. We did a lot to get this ingrained. The morning flight we did power off straight ahead and turning stalls, unusual attitude recoveries, aileron rolls. Oh, the airspeed indicator and turn coordinator are covered the whole flight.
After lunch we did spins, wing overs and half Cuban eights.
After the 2nd half Cuban 8 I admit I needed a barf bag. I never felt bad or particularly queasy, but I just knew I needed one. One issue is the high temperature we’re all suffering with right now.
I never felt uncomfortable or scared on any of the maneuvers (as I thought I might). A good instructor helps in that regard. Inverted wasn’t a big deal, but I did not like the attitude and rotational speed of the spin. I told Ryan I needed to do more of those tomorrow.
Right now I need a good dinner (MANY choices for that in St Augustine) and a good night’s sleep. Then at it again at 8am.
Did I make a good decision on spending some time and money. I think so. There’s no way this doesn’t make you a better and safer pilot. That’s a good thing.
Click to expand...
columbia or casa reina for dinner!
 
KE5BM said:
Mike Goulian has an Upset Prevention & Recovery course very near to my location. This just encouraged me to make the call. Thank you for sharing your experience, Lance. Best of luck tomorrow!
Click to expand...
I did the first version of the Goulian course and it was awesome. I was always apprehensive of spinning, but I loved spinning the extra. Even got to ride along on a hammerhead. Definitely worth the money.
 
Soak it in, that's world class training you're getting! Good luck tomorrow!

And hope you can spare some time for a full write up when you're finished to share bits of wisdom you picked up :) . Enjoy!
 
Interesting.

In PPL and IR training, it became a reaction - -if I was nose down straighten wings (to avoid wing stall in next step) then level (without pulling wings off), and
-if it was nose up, push down then straighten wings.

With Lance & Larry:
-Look, Unload, Roll and Recover
-Push, Roll, Thrust, Stabilize
The first input is push/unload regardless? Then roll?

Help me learn. 182…
 
Lance F said:
Did I make a good decision on spending some time and money. I think so. There’s no way this doesn’t make you a better and safer pilot. That’s a good thing.
Click to expand...
If you could measure my jealousy, you would know my answer to whether you made a good decision.
 
Lance F said:
We did a number of base leg to final turn stall/spin scenarios. It happens fast. Now I know a lot better what causes it, can avoid doing it myself, can be watchful for student errors and teach it better.
Click to expand...
Yep, watch the first minute of this:
 
The “Look” part is very important and frankly was tough to incorporate. When you’re faced with unusual attitude, you tend to just look straight ahead and get tunnel vision. If you’re pitched way down, you look at those trees or whatever and the primal instinct is to pull. And there go the wings. You have to look around, find the horizon, determine your attitude first. Make sense?

Day 2 was good. Two flights again in the Super Decathlon. Repeated some stuff from yesterday and added some new ones. Aileron roll with hesitation at inverted point, couple of warmup half Cuban eights, tried to get more precise on wing overs, started on precision turns, full loops and inverted flight. It was enough.

One thing I would change is to not do this when it’s above 90 on the ground, both temperature and humidity. For a newbie you don’t realize how tiring this is both mentally and physically. The heat makes it much worse. I’ve had to take naps both days, and I never take naps.

So far this remains a super experience. One more flight tomorrow. This one in her Extra 200.
 
Lance F said:
So far this remains a super experience. One more flight tomorrow. This one in her Extra 200.
Click to expand...
That will probably suck. They probably put the worst part of the course at the end so you don't feel bad going home. I'm sure you'll be so disappointed that you won't even post about it. </envy>
 
Final chapter. I flew the Extra today. Wow. Started with an extensive briefing-almost an hour covering a lot of the physics of what we'd been doing. Very well presented and will make me a better instructor. The Extra is an amazing aircraft. The ailerons extend almost the entire wingspan and then they add spades. It takes about an inch of movement of the stick for aileron rolls where in the Super D the stick went full travel. I did some upset recovery work, turning stalls, aileron rolls, half Cuban eights, two and four point rolls and then the hour was over. I physically felt a lot better today. First day I felt totally beat up, yesterday better but still tough, today I really enjoyed it (It was a little cooler too).
All-in-all I can highly recommend this course. There are many reasons to do it...improve and add skills, have fun, fly tail draggers, etc. But Patty calls her operation Patty Wagstaff Aviation Safety for a reason. There are way too many tragic accidents that didn't need to happen if the pilot had been better prepared and trained. Anything you can do to improve your odds is very worthwhile. Fly safe out there. Look...Unload....Roll...Recover.IMG_6451.jpeg
 
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Lance F said:
One thing I would change is to not do this when it’s above 90 on the ground, both temperature and humidity. For a newbie you don’t realize how tiring this is both mentally and physically. The heat makes it much worse. I’ve had to take naps both days, and I never take naps.
Click to expand...
100% agree. I'm down in Tampa, and lately my acro practice has been terrible. It's just miserable. Half the time I drive to the airfield and then don't feel like flying. Going to try starting early in the morning or just before sundown.

Dehydration is a huge factor for aerobatics. I always chug a couple of bottles of water in the hour before flying.

One thing I've learned is save the negative G stuff for the end. That's when the stomach upset starts. Once you get past the initial apprehension, most folks can pull 3-4G all day long without feeling sick. But throw in some inverted flight and that's gonna get you. Even very experienced aerobatic pilots have a limit.

Too bad they don't teach the Immelman in the Super D. The more I fly that, the more I appreciate how it develops general flying skills. When you roll out at the top, half the time you will be below stall speed. It really develops a feel for the stick to learn how to coax the plane into flying again without the nose or wing dropping.
 
Great experience! My PPL instruction was way back when spins were still mandatory. He had taken some aerobatic training, and was comfortable with any attitude. I did a couple of spins in the Cessna 150 with him, then one with the examiner. The spin on the check ride was out of the blue, he kicked the rudder in a stall, just as the plane broke.

Not long after, I took a short aerobatic session in a Cessna Aerobat, and that was worth every dollar. Find the horizon, roll the dirt under you, and return to level flight, gently. If you are pulling the stick/yoke, pull the throttle too, to prevent overspeed. If you are pushing the stick, push the throttle to maintain airspeed.

Hot or not, I envy your flying in St. Augustine, and Patty is one of the greatest. That school is justly famous.
 
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