Eagle, CO

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Big Ed
Looking hard at a second home in CO mountains. Will spend approx 6 months a year there.

Initial target was Steamboat. I looked into flying opportunities in Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah, and got really excited about taking my Decathlon there.

Lately we are focusing more on Avon-Edwards area. What is the GA environment like at Eagle-Vail? Hangar situation? Is the terrain conducive to flights north and west?

Fully aware of need for mountain training and CPA checkride will be high on my list.
 
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Expensive. If you have to ask.....Eagle is the official name, it's Vail. That's all you need to know. Take a look at a map. Depends entirely what type of aircraft you've got. Better option is Kremmling (McElroy) or Rifle, much more friendly to GA.
 
Flocker said:
I have ARE contacts in CO. PM me your hangar requirements and I'll see what I can do to put you in touch with the right people.
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What is "ARE"?
 
I love the Eagle valley. I worked sometimes in Avon, which gave me an excuse to commute by Mooney into Eagle County airport. Unfortunately, the place I was working closed permanently two years ago, so I don't get up there much anymore.

Eagle is a great airport. Historically it has been very friendly to general aviation. The Vail Valley Jet Center was wonderful to deal with, and prices were reasonable. VVJC has recently been purchased by Signature, so I would expect a lot of that GA friendliness will disappear and prices will go up. Haven't been there since that change happened. There are hangars for sale on the north side of the airport. I have no idea what the cost is, but it will be a lot. Of course, as with buying a home on the area, you won't lose any money on it. Than hangar will surely be worth more than you paid for it in the future. The airport is a great facility. If I were based there I would want a deicing system on my plane. and a turbo or second engine. To get out IFR in any direction you need to get to at least 16,000 feet. VFR for any distance you need 12,500 in most directions, which is the altitude I usually flew going southwest. The easiest way out is to follow the river and I-70 toward Grand Junction.

With a Decathlon you can fly mornings during the warm season and some days in the winter. Figure on PM thunderstorms most summer days. Winter days will often be beautiful, but you can have a full week socked in.

Best thing, since you have an airplane, is to pop in for a visit.

Jon
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's been more than a decade since I moved from Colorado, but personally, I'd choose Steamboat over Vail for both GA and non-aviation reasons.
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That was my initial preference, but it is a 2 person decision. We did a scouting trip this spring and spent a week in each location. Wife likes the skiing at Beaver Creek better. The Boat has some shortcomings as a mountain.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That was my initial preference, but it is a 2 person decision. We did a scouting trip this spring and spent a week in each location. Wife likes the skiing at Beaver Creek better. The Boat has some shortcomings as a mountain.
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Personal tastes. I never noticed any downside to skiing Steamboat (except the much longer and potentially more difficult drive from Denver). I saw the opposite. Steamboat is almost an anomaly because so much of the ski terrain is below tree line. Then there's the towns. Vail is 100% artificial. A resort created from nothing. Disney for adults. Fun for a week, but I can't imagine 6 months there. Beaver Creek is a little better - developed as a community. But Although obviously expanded, Steamboat is a real town. That makes a difference to some; less to others.

Either way, enjoy!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Personal tastes. I never noticed any downside to skiing Steamboat (except the much longer and potentially more difficult drive from Denver). I saw the opposite. Steamboat is almost an anomaly because so much of the ski terrain is below tree line. Then there's the towns. Vail is 100% artificial. A resort created from nothing. Disney for adults. Fun for a week, but I can't imagine 6 months there. Beaver Creek is a little better - developed as a community. But Although obviously expanded, Steamboat is a real town. That makes a difference to some; less to others.

Either way, enjoy!
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The Boat has great tree skiing, which I love, and a history of massive snowfall. But because of the low peak, it will never have alpine bowls or above treeline terrain, which I love more. The lower portion of the mountain ices up badly because of low altitude and southern exposure, almost like east coast skiing. Finally, the base area is a terrible choke point, though the new gondola should improve that. My wife knew I liked the town and tried to like the mountain, but she never had a good experience. As an intermediate, she could not get away from the crowds. Steamboat is overrun with people from Texas, who are disproportionately beginners and intermediates.

Compare that to the four Vail properties in the Summit-Eagle corridor. 3,000 acres vs 13,000 acres, with any style of skiing you could ever wish for. Groomers at Keystone, high alpine at Breck, world cup runs at BC, and everything at Vail. Now consider that we get Epic season passes for $150 as military retirees. Hard to compete with that.

Town wise, 100% agree. Steamboat is far and away the best. My wife did love the Springs. I would never live in Vail.

Finally, access is a consideration. We will be going back and forth to Florida. Tons of direct flights to Denver, not so much to Hayden. And we expect a steady stream of family, all from the east coast.
 
One other thing about Steamboat. The real estate market there is nuts, even by current day standards. 3 years ago properties were selling at a discount relative to the I70 corridor. But $/sf has easily doubled since then, and inventory is non-existent. A property I was watching last week came on the market and was snatched up in 5 days.

But back to flying. Looking at terrain, looks like a relatively easy flight from Eagle north to Steamboat, with the highest pass at 8.5K. I have driven that route many times and don't recall it being particularly rugged. So trips to Wyoming and Idaho are still possible, no? OTOH have driven the canyon from Eagle to Glenwood Springs and flying over that seems terrifying. It is less intimidating from the air?
 
Jim Carpenter said:
What about Gunnison/Crested Butte?
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Have never been there. A good friend from Aspen suggested I look closer, but I was put off by difficulty of travel from the east coast. Must admit real estate prices look good by comparison though.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Have never been there. A good friend from Aspen suggested I look closer, but I was put off by difficulty of travel from the east coast. Must admit real estate prices look good by comparison though.
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Cold as hell starting inJanuary, south facing slope so you ski sheet of ice, snowfall is intermittent, especially early season. Town is a few miles from base area and there’s not much in the base area. Tends to get overrun at spring break.

When I was at Carson, we usually got 6 days at CB and 3 days at Steamboat with whatever pass we bought. Crested Butte was good for a pre-Christmas weekend because there’s a nice ski-in/-out resort (https://www.elevationresort.com/) that would do a 2 nights for the price of one weekends from after Thanksgiving thru the weekend before Christmas.

Fun times, but remote.
 
TCABM said:
Cold as hell starting inJanuary, south facing slope so you ski sheet of ice, snowfall is intermittent, especially early season. Town is a few miles from base area and there’s not much in the base area. Tends to get overrun at spring break.

When I was at Carson, we usually got 6 days at CB and 3 days at Steamboat with whatever pass we bought. Crested Butte was good for a pre-Christmas weekend because there’s a nice ski-in/-out resort (https://www.elevationresort.com/) that would do a 2 nights for the price of one weekends from after Thanksgiving thru the weekend before Christmas.

Fun times, but remote.
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Small mountain at 1500 acres. VBBK is 10 times that size.
 
murphey said:
Expensive. If you have to ask.....Eagle is the official name, it's Vail. That's all you need to know. Take a look at a map. Depends entirely what type of aircraft you've got. Better option is Kremmling (McElroy) or Rifle, much more friendly to GA.
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The Vail Valley Jet Center did get sold, but it is still an excellent FBO. Wonderful people, I used to base out of there.
The flight from Eagle to Steamboat is a short easy one, we used to fly up there for breakfast pretty frequently, sometimes over to Salida or Beuna Vista. The flight down the canyon to the west is really spectacular, we often times drop in to about 800 agl for the flight back to Glenwood Springs where I used to base as well. Its the easiest route to the west if you have the performance, the new instrument departure is to the southwest, which is the other route to the west that gives more time to climb. But, tower will jack you around if they have any departing jets. I used to manage a ranch just over the hill to the southwest, a hayfield at 8040' was landing strip for me, it was about 1700' long.
 
Just made an offer on a property in Avon, at the base of Beaver Creek. It's getting real now. Little condo, 1000 SF, but great location, with easy walk to coffee shops and restaurants. Just what we have been dreaming of.

Probably won't move there for first year; will stay in Florida, and hit the condo for a few weeks at a time. That give me time to scout out the aircraft basing options.
 
I’m jealous!
If you don’t buy the place in beaver creek, give telluride a look.
 
Ed Haywood said:
One other thing about Steamboat. The real estate market there is nuts, even by current day standards. 3 years ago properties were selling at a discount relative to the I70 corridor. But $/sf has easily doubled since then, and inventory is non-existent. A property I was watching last week came on the market and was snatched up in 5 days.

But back to flying. Looking at terrain, looks like a relatively easy flight from Eagle north to Steamboat, with the highest pass at 8.5K. I have driven that route many times and don't recall it being particularly rugged. So trips to Wyoming and Idaho are still possible, no? OTOH have driven the canyon from Eagle to Glenwood Springs and flying over that seems terrifying. It is less intimidating from the air?
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If you haven't taken the Colorado Pilots Assoc high altitude/mountain class (2-3 times in spring/fall) the flight between Eagle and Glenwood Springs is one of the legs of the flight. General route is Denver (KAPA or KBJC) to Kremmling - (Granby-Steamboat if you'd like) -Glenwood Springs - Aspen - Leadville - Denver. A side trip from Kremmling down to Vail is always an option, negotiate with the CFI.
 
Visited the property today to take a look and sort out some inspection issues. Looks like everything is on track to close in late Jan. Guess we're doing this thing.

I swung by KEGE. Clearly guys like me are not their business model. First of all, I have seen classified US military facilities in combat zones with less security than the FBO. Massive hangar space, but here's how the conversation went.

Me: "Hi, how much for a spot in the group hangars?"
Them: "what kind of plane?"
Me: "Decathlon."
Them: "$255."
Me: "that's not so bad. I pay $275/mo for my hangar in Florida."
Them: "per night."

Called a buddy who grew up in Aspen. He suggested some crazy options like Rifle. Then he had a potentially brilliant idea: what about Leadville?

Looks to be a 45 minute drive from Avon. Website shows a nice 11k sf hangar and says they have monthly rates. Photo even has an 8GCBC Scout, the sister ship to my Decathlon, parked inside.

Anyone have experience with the highest airport in the country?
 
Ed Haywood said:
…Anyone have experience with the highest airport in the country?
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You’ll want to investigate Colorado Pilots Associaiton.

www.coloradopilots.org

Home - Colorado Pilots Association

Colorado Pilots Association was incorporated as a Colorado Nonprofit Corporation in 1972. Objectives of the organization are to promote aviation and flying safety, to protect the rights of pilots.
www.coloradopilots.org www.coloradopilots.org
 
Eagle-Vail used to be much nicer, expensive but nicer. I think the FBO is now run by a different company. Summer operations very different from winter (ski season) operations, primarily costs. On 24, the road between Avon and Leadville, don't pass up the Minturn Country Club for dinner.

Leadville. Wonderful place, very GA friendly, and the diner in town (the crew cars are great) is superb for breakfast. Get your certificate for landing at the highest paved airport in the continental US. Mine is in the folder with the required paperwork for the airplane (W&B, etc) in the luggage area.

Don't believe the 45 min drive from Avon - you are in the mountains and going over passes that in the winter, often may be closed. As of this timestamp, it's showing an hour travel.

There's also Salida & Buena Vista just south of Leadville as more options.

Take a look at the geography, land to the north, takeoff to the south is recommended. There's also a sign about 2/3 the way down the runway (both directions) that states if you haven't taken off by now (arent' at takeoff speed) then don't. The south end of the runway drops off over the valley. Be very careful, as there are dead end valleys all over the place and the odds are against you.

Pick a nice day, find a CFI who lives in the area and get an orientation flight/mountain checkout for the area. Flatlanders die out here because they don't understand density altitude, geography, W&B, and so on. Around here, GPS is not always your friend. If you didn't go flying with a local CFI, then in June, sign up for the Colorado Pilots Assoc mountain flying course. The flying part involves taking off from one of the Front Range airports and the route involves Granby, Steamboat, Vail, Aspen, Glenwood Springs, and Leadville, not necessarily in that order.

Add to this the holiday season...unless you're based at Aspen or Vail (Eagle), you can't park there.

Weather is the #1 issue around here. I need to go to Greeley for some avionics work. It's a 20 min flight from KCFO, I can almost see it once I take off. But weather for the next week along the Front Range is snow and high winds. Due to my schedule and the avionics dude's schedule, the next possibility is March. Bah humbug.

[Of course if they had responded to my phone call a day sooner, I could have done this last week in absolutely perfect weather but noooooo.]
 
murphey said:
Don't believe the 45 min drive from Avon - you are in the mountains and going over passes that in the winter, often may be closed. As of this timestamp, it's showing an hour travel.
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I am not considering bringing the plane to CO for winter. Would only do it for a few months in summer, so I can explore the west. Driving TN pass should not be a problem then.
 
Kremmling has a nice airport. A bit farther, but DAs are much lower.
 
How was the house hunting experience?
 
MountainDude said:
Kremmling has a nice airport. A bit farther, but DAs are much lower.
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Any experience with Glenwood Springs? Even lower DA. Same distance as Kremmling but all downvalley on interstate.

Here are the distances from my condo to the closest airports, and drive conditions:

Eagle 26 miles, interstate
Leadville 37 miles, mountain roads
Glenwood Springs, 51 miles, interstate
Kremmling, 51 miles, mountain roads
 
Ed Haywood said:
Any experience with Glenwood Springs? Even lower DA. Same distance as Kremmling but all downvalley on interstate.

Here are the distances from my condo to the closest airports, and drive conditions:

Eagle 26 miles, interstate
Leadville 37 miles, mountain roads
Glenwood Springs, 51 miles, interstate
Kremmling, 51 miles, mountain roads
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Glenwood is a one-way airport most of the time. You're curving around the mountains to see the runway. Again, take a look at the maps. There was also an attempt to close it a couple years ago, not gonna happen because Forest Service and everyone else needs it for emergency & firefighting.

Here are the notes from the Colorado Pilots Assoc. class:

2. Glenwood Springs Airport is a dramatic example of a mountain airport in a deep valley. The execution of the descent into the valley and the Precision Visual Approach will be an invaluable piloting experience. IAS control and descent control are very important.

3. Use dead reckoning and pilotage navigation.

4. Descend into the deep valley at Glenwood Springs using aircraft configuration, a planned rate of descent of 500 feet per minute and speed control while planning the ground track for the approach and a possible go-around.

5. Announce the approach on Unicom, landing lights on and watch for oncoming traffic as it departs the Glenwood Springs area.

6. In the case of a go around, expedite the climb and proceed straight ahead (approx. 320 degrees) following the Roaring Fork River, then over the town of Glenwood Springs and turn LEFT (west) following the Colorado River. This will take the trainee to a large open area where a turnaround can be accomplished and a decision made about landing or not landing at the Glenwood Springs Airport. NEVER TURN RIGHT INTO GLENWOOD CANYON.
 
We lived in Aspen for 8 years and flew out of GWS when friends came in to give me a ride. Our company Citation was at Aspen when it was in town. It was $800 a night for the hangar or $1500 for de-ice. It was always a gamble on what was going to happen at night.

GWS is a one way airport as said previously. There is a pretty dramatic downdraft from the river just before the end of the runway so pay attention to it. Hangars are limited and as mentioned- there have been people trying to shut it down and there is a group of pilots trying to lease it from the city and sort of at a stalemate as of 2 weeks ago. Im sure you will love it wherever you go in and out of. Head up to Snowmass. It will be worth it. Our company rebuilt the entire Base Village including the Viceroy Hotel. We loved living there!
 
Good buddy of mine is 5th generation Aspen. Family came to mine silver in the 1880s.

We stayed with him for a few days when we started our town search a few years ago. The town is amazing. You can see why people with the money to live anywhere choose to live there. Unfortunately we don't have the money to live anywhere.

We did learn that walkability was high on our list of attributes. Being able to walk into town for coffee or burgers instead of having to load everyone into the car makes a huge difference in lifestyle. That's what eventually led us to our current property. Avon doesn't compare to Aspen, but it has all the basics within a few hundred yards. And the gondola up the mountain is a 4 minute bus ride.
 
I was based at KEGE for a year or two, then it was the Vail Valley Jet Center, wonderful nice people, $500 per month heated hangar. Since they were bought out, things may have changed. I was at KGWS for a few years after that, open hangar south end a few years ago was $260/month. Some days I had to power up and drive it over the ice in front of the plane to get out. GWS is a great small town airport with a great maintenance shop owned by a friend, I used to work for him part time. But, space in Glenwood out of the weather is very tight. I sold my hangar there a few weeks ago.
GWS is a great place, but if you are not comfortable flying mountain valleys with high DA and swirly winds, keep your flights to first thing in the morning. I flew a 460# kit plane out of there on skis for a few years, great place to fly. Just pick your weather. No lights there, so no night landing.
 
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