Multiple Recent ATC Errors...Why?

tobnpr

Pre-takeoff checklist
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tobnpr



Streak of bad "luck"? Result of FAA DEI hiring requirements? Something else?
What say ye commercial passenger and cargo aircraft pilots- have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the ATC you deal with on an often daily basis?
 



Streak of bad "luck"? Result of FAA DEI hiring requirements? Something else?
What say ye commercial passenger and cargo aircraft pilots- have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the ATC you deal with on an often daily basis?

Lack of staffing, mandatory OT, long shifts, burnout, etc. They simply aren't hiring and training fast enough.
 
@ ethanb
Guess I'm missing the humorous take on this topic?
 



Streak of bad "luck"? Result of FAA DEI hiring requirements? Something else?
What say ye commercial passenger and cargo aircraft pilots- have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the ATC you deal with on an often daily basis?
Well I’ve talked about it another thread. I have a brother who retired from ATC early (50) in 2020 and one of the major reasons was the poor students that they were getting from OK City. Actually met a guy at a gas station in 2020 once who just retired early (50) as well and stated the same. Worked in ATL tower and said “I got tired of baby sitting kids.” I have controller friends still in the FAA that have backed that up. One friend was a QA guy for the SE region and said “I see operational errors on a regular basis and no accountability.” My brother saw a rise in OEs with no disciplinary action whatsoever. He used to say that mediocrity was the norm now.

Now, is all this exaggeration? Has it always been this way? Well if you look at the stats, OEs have risen sharply about 10 years ago but some of that was due to ATSAP reporting process. Basically ASRS for controllers. Now they’re free to report their mistakes without punitive action. There’s more reporting of errors now but when you have a shortage of personnel and you’re trying to fill seats, you take what you can get. That means, instead of the tried and true method of CTI grads and military veterans, the FAA opened the flood gates to off the street applicants. Combine that with pushing people through training to fill an agenda, then you’re gonna have higher rates of errors.

AI just needs to take over the entire ATC system. AI would never turn down practice approaches for workload. ;)
 
Just saw this one on AvWeb:


This sort of ATC will soon get people killed. Heck, we’d probably be better off with uncontrolled fields if ATC is going to screw up like this.
 
Retired Controller friend of mine said the experience level went from 22 average years on the job to 4 years average in 2 years at his facility.
 
Don't even joke about it.

At our local untowered airport (admittedly a high traffic area) I regularly see things that scare the heck out of me - runway excursions, airborne near misses, etc.

Just yesterday I saw a pilot begin his takeoff roll right after another had called and started a runway crossing. That's one thing with a couple of 172s, but imagine it with heavy transports.
In just 1100 hours, I’ve had three runway incursions, all at non-towered fields: a helicopter hover taxi across the runway seconds after I announced taking off on the CTAF (than God my first instructor taught that upon lining up, look both ways and confirm that intersections are clear before adding power; met up with the helo CFI later and he admitted he was too caught up with talking to his student - we had a good discussion about runway safety and it went well), a plane taxiing across the runway 500 feet ahead of us when we were in the flare (all normal calls had been made, radios working properly; that was at a weekly fly-in - it was his first time attending and has never been seen at one since), and a mower suddenly turning onto the runway when crossing the threshold.
 
Retired Controller friend of mine said the experience level went from 22 average years on the job to 4 years average in 2 years at his facility.
That doesn't sound like a DEI issue. Was there a surge in retirements at some point?
 
Well I’ve talked about it another thread. I have a brother who retired from ATC early (50) in 2020 and one of the major reasons was the poor students that they were getting from OK City. Actually met a guy at a gas station in 2020 once who just retired early (50) as well and stated the same. Worked in ATL tower and said “I got tired of baby sitting kids.” I have controller friends still in the FAA that have backed that up. One friend was a QA guy for the SE region and said “I see operational errors on a regular basis and no accountability.” My brother saw a rise in OEs with no disciplinary action whatsoever. He used to say that mediocrity was the norm now.

Now, is all this exaggeration? Has it always been this way? Well if you look at the stats, OEs have risen sharply about 10 years ago but some of that was due to ATSAP reporting process. Basically ASRS for controllers. Now they’re free to report their mistakes without punitive action. There’s more reporting of errors now but when you have a shortage of personnel and you’re trying to fill seats, you take what you can get. That means, instead of the tried and true method of CTI grads and military veterans, the FAA opened the flood gates to off the street applicants. Combine that with pushing people through training to fill an agenda, then you’re gonna have higher rates of errors.

AI just needs to take over the entire ATC system. AI would never turn down practice approaches for workload. ;)
Go back further to the Class of 81
 
Was there a surge in retirements at some point?
I talked to a controller ~5 years ago about this, and his view (as he was retiring) was that ATC never recovered from the PATCO firings in 1981. His view was that the brain drain was substantial, and rebuilding the expertise took more controllers than could be hired and staffed. The quality trend line has been a negative slope, augmented by technology to help flatten or inflect the trend.

That said, I talked to a controller who recently went through OKC. The graduation culture sounds like it's changing. Historically, there was an effort to get everyone to pass because of how staffing assignments worked. Now, the staffing process (controllers to facilities) has changed, which is leading to less concern about any one person graduating as long as everyone getting staffed is a higher quality controller candidate.

One other issue that many facilities see is that folks look to transfer shortly after being certified, meaning some facilities are constantly training folks to get their there CPC, only to have them turn around and depart as a transfer to another facility. That means these "staffed" locations always run at a deficit, even though they look like they're appropriately staffed.

I'm interested to see how the new ATC work rules play out without a substantial increase in controllers; the current shift schedule and work rules exist to support the number of bodies in the facility today. There aren't magically going to be extra controllers to eliminate folks getting staffed on the rattler shifts.
 
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Definitely seeing more "hit or miss" competence. Depends on the sector / controller, but one recent (short) flight I had was an ATC train wreck, using wrong shortened call signs, multiple aborted incorrect calls to other aircraft using break to reset, etc. My favorite from that same flight was ATIS saying to expect visual, controller just saying to expect generic runway (no approach type), then issuing clearances to approach waypoints -- sure, but for which approach? :dunno: I get people are human and can mess up, but then trying to say "it's on the plate" like it's my problem -- can't load what I don't see...I think he might have finally got it when I responded to that with "should I be expecting the ILS or RNAV?" :rolleyes1:

Safety wasn't compromised but only because the pilots were all filling in the gaps. Contrast with the very professional service I normally get from ZKC and ZAU, maybe I'm just used to that and am being too picky? :lol:
 
I haven’t watch the OP video yet, but is “stop stop stop” appropriate controller terminology?
Probably not, but I have heard it before once when the ground controller cleared a B727, A DC3 and a mighty C-152 to the same intersection on the airport. I told my instructor that this isn't going to work and I did not start to taxi, when another voice came on the radio, B727, DC3, C-152 STOP.!! (he used N numbers but I have long forgotten them)

The new voice straightened it all out and we all lived to fly another day.
 
I think getting rid of the ridiculous age requirement of being (at most) 30 by the time you apply for ATC would be nice.
At a minimum it could help broaden the applicant pool so you have a better lot to pick from. Can't hurt, right?
 
Unless someone has actual data or first hand knowledge, yelling "DEI" is just a cop out for not wanting to do actual RCCA (in my opinion).
As mentioned above there is an active federal class-action lawsuit over the change in the FAA's controller hiring practice to favor a "biographical" priority to who should be a controller vs the skill/aptitude based priority used prior to the change via the CTI program. Here's one synopsis of the action but there are others as well. And its not the only instance.

1713986781391.png
 
I'm interested to see how the new ATC work rules play out without a substantial increase in controllers; the current shift schedule and work rules exist to support the number of bodies in the facility today. There aren't magically going to be extra controllers to eliminate folks getting staffed on the rattler shifts.
Funding for increased staffing is being proposed.

 
As mentioned above there is an active federal class-action lawsuit over the change in the FAA's controller hiring practice to favor a "biographical" priority to who should be a controller vs the skill/aptitude based priority used prior to the change via the CTI program. Here's one synopsis of the action but there are others as well. And its not the only instance.

View attachment 128126
What's the source for this except? Seems to me that this is the plaintiff's summary of the reason for his failure vs what the biographical questionnaire actually graded. But I guess we will see how successful this suit actually is.

Screenshot_20240424-163351.png
 
Don't even joke about it.

At our local untowered airport (admittedly a high traffic area) I regularly see things that scare the heck out of me - runway excursions, airborne near misses, etc.

Just yesterday I saw a pilot begin his takeoff roll right after another had called and started a runway crossing. That's one thing with a couple of 172s, but imagine it with heavy transports.

Same problems at my home drome. But it doesn't sound like the towers are doing much better. At least at our place it will only be a 172 and a Cherokee that co-occupy space. At a place like JFK it will be Boeing meets Airbus and 300 people will be dead.
 
I talked to a controller ~5 years ago about this, and his view (as he was retiring) was that ATC never recovered from the PATCO firings in 1981. His view was that the brain drain was substantial, and rebuilding the expertise took more controllers than could be hired and staffed. The quality trend line has been a negative slope, augmented by technology to help flatten or inflect the trend.

That said, I talked to a controller who recently went through OKC. The graduation culture sounds like it's changing. Historically, there was an effort to get everyone to pass because of how staffing assignments worked. Now, the staffing process (controllers to facilities) has changed, which is leading to less concern about any one person graduating as long as everyone getting staffed is a higher quality controller candidate.

One other issue that many facilities see is that folks look to transfer shortly after being certified, meaning some facilities are constantly training folks to get their there CPC, only to have them turn around and depart as a transfer to another facility. That means these "staffed" locations always run at a deficit, even though they look like they're appropriately staffed.

I'm interested to see how the new ATC work rules play out without a substantial increase in controllers; the current shift schedule and work rules exist to support the number of bodies in the facility today. There aren't magically going to be extra controllers to eliminate folks getting staffed on the rattler shifts.
I spoke with a local Approach Controller last month. FAA has never recovered from the "surge hiring" after 1981. So every 20-25 yrs after the surge hire, those controllers are retiring from age and burnout. That starts another surge hire wave. Surge hire 1982, surge hire 2002, surge hire 2022-current. He told me a large portion of the current air traffic controllers are eligible to retire in the next 3-5 yrs.

I wouldn't mind a nice VFR Tower for part-time work. But that would eat into my retirement activities. Plus I'm too old, they would not hire, but perhaps one of the contract towers would. Nah... ATC? BTDT when I was a youngster. Saw the handwriting on the wall and left for a flying position.
 
CST - Company Specific TLA
TLA - Three Letter Acronym

(Nested acronyms are a preferred practice, after all.)

Common discrepancy and sign off we used in the USAF:

Rt MLG req serv.

Rt MLG serv w/ hyd crt #0402 & n2 crt #03 IAW 12-10-2
Lk ck c/w, ndn. Acft RTS.
 
A lot of these recent errors are *pilot* error.
 
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