Zenith CH-750 w/no logbooks

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

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Fast Eddie B
I have a friend that’s considering a used Zenith CH-750. It’s a fair distance away. It has 500 hours, an 0-200, and seems reasonably priced. The seller is not the builder. Says he’s selling it because he thinks it’s underpowered for putting floats on, which was his original plan.

One possibly fly in the ointment - no logbooks. My initial take is to be suspicious - I’d be wary of buying any plane without knowing it’s documented history. And further suspicious of how and why the logbooks are “lost”.

Anyway, my friend is not real familiar with online forums, so I told him I’d put this out there and provide him a link. So, what do you guys think - yay or nay?
 
I have zero experience in buying airplanes so take this as you will but I would not buy this airplane or any airplane that had no logs. No exceptions. This is not the last plane your buddy will see for sale at his price. Practice patience.
 
I would definitely stay away ,if the builders logs are not available. There probably is an underlying reason the logs are missing.
 
I sold my Archer and gave up about 5 AMU cause I couldn't find the prop log. On a fixed prop.
 
FastEddieB said:
So, what do you guys think - yay or nay?
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FWIW: the value of complete logbooks on any aircraft whether TC'd or E/AB, falls to the person buying the aircraft. The rules set out what continuous documentation is required to be legal. Everything else is subjective to each individual. I know of aircraft that sold for $1M+ with only one new logbook and nothing else. A lot of good aircraft get overlooked simply because it's missing a piece of paper that in most cases is not required. When faced with this circumstance get knowledgeable people involved to look over the aircraft and see what they think. Only then make the decision to purchase or not.
 
david.h said:
I sold my Archer and gave up about 5 AMU cause I couldn't find the prop log. On a fixed prop.
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How much is a replacement prop, including its corresponding prop log?
 
The Zenith 750 kit was first sold in 2008. The plane cannot be more than about 12 years old. This has become a very desirable aircraft as it has been winning STOL competitions all over the world.

This is a version of the plane that Dave Telema set a new 48 state world record on his way to Oshkosh this year (Dave's is a 750 Cruzer and has a slightly different wing, but fuse is the same as the 750).

The plane is not only a great STOL plane but a decent, if slow, cross country machine. Yet, put a 130 HP Viking and a Duc propellor on it and you have a decent cruise speed as well. It will carry a reasonable load as well.

I also agree with Stewart, experimental aircraft logs can be of limited value (though some of us are very diligent!).

Get it inspected by someone who knows the plane, or Zenith aircraft in general. If the construction quality looks good the only question is how much value do you put on the engine and the avionics? You can get the serial number and check the engine age.

If there's no logs, I'm guessing there are no records of oil analysis? If not, then its up to the buyer to figure out the engine value to them.

I can tell you that it is likely this plane will not last long. Also, it will be easy to resell. A lot of pilots would pull the conti and install a Viking engine. They are a very popular conversion for this plane. They are cheap, powerful and use little gas.

To me this would be possibly a great deal, assuming the construction looked good. If you don't overpay, you can always get your money out of it.
 
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A lot depends on WHY the logs are missing. Straight up ask, and don't be afraid to dig.
 
The thing I would be most cautious about is ownership issues and disputes. Logbooks themselves carry little value to me.

pretty sure Airplane Repo has made them more valuable than they really are.

I’ve got an amazing 1000 hr 1947 Cessna… with logbooks since new!! And I believe the hours.

And a little wrinkle near the door post, a fairly chewed up cowling, some damaged ribs, prop ain’t original… she’s been on her back. NOTHING in the logbooks about that…. And that’s pretty normal.
 
Tools said:
And a little wrinkle near the door post, a fairly chewed up cowling, some damaged ribs, prop ain’t original… it’s been on her back. NOTHING in the logbooks about that
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The only things logged for the first several years on my E-AB are the condition inspections. Some argue that this is all that has to be logged which makes the books pretty much not worth the paper they are printed on.
 
Logs have some value, even on an EAB, and I'd be wondering why there is nothing.

That said, a CH750 is a pretty simple airplane and it's pretty easy to see deep into it's bones. I'd make sure to look real hard at it and see if the price is appropriate.

it won’t last long.
 
FastEddieB said:
Says he’s selling it because he thinks it’s underpowered for putting floats on, which was his original plan.
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I’d have thought he would have determined that before purchasing to begin with.

I dunno, I put a good bit of merit on logbooks. I’d be pretty cautious about buying something with no records.
 
Experimental - a good inspection is far more important than a history. If it’s underpowered, maybe consider a new engine in the future, but otherwise it’s a decent airplane.
 
Does it have the airworthiness certificate? Operating limitations? Both should be in the plane. If those are missing? I’d talk to a DAR.

All E-ABs have to put an entry in the logs that Phase 1 testing was completed. I’d ask a DAR or FSDO about not having that. I don’t know if other E-AB records are available from the FAA like standard category airplanes. Anyone know?

Some guys are worried about liability when selling Experimentals and try to disassociate themselves from the airplane. Is that what’s happening here?
 
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It’s not like this is a 1947 antique. It’s probably only had a couple of previous owners. Contact the builder and prior owners and get the story.

If your friend is planning to keep the plane and not just sell it in a year or two, the logs matter less. Twenty years from now it will have twenty years of logbooks, making the sale easier.
 
I’m one of those apparently rare aircraft buyers that purchased an aircraft without complete logs. After about five years of ownership, I got a letter from a broker mentioning that he found an old logbook of my 182 mixed in with the logs of another aircraft. He wanted to mail me the logbook and wanted to verify that I was still the owner. He was very kind and asked for nothing in return (shout out to Kevin DeTray in Bucyrus OH).

While waiting for the logs, the thought came across my head: “what if the logs show the airplane actually has 10,000 hours on it and rebuilt half a dozen times?” Thankfully the logs were completely benign and included a photo of the plane new from delivery from the factory. I’m no longer missing the first 17 years of the planes life.

That said, zero logs is different from incomplete logs. Is the potential buyer able to track down the original builder?
 
Without logs, how can the buyer confirm AD's are complied with? If the seller can't demonstrate compliance with AD's, then its airworthiness status is in question, no? The buyer might need to re-perform every applicable AD during the first annual.

Even if the buyer doesn't care about the aircraft history, it will materially reduce the resale value when he goes to sell it. He should add this consideration to his offer.
 
I'll give him $50 for it, sight unseen.
 
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Aye Effaar said:
Without logs, how can the buyer confirm AD's are complied with? If the seller can't demonstrate compliance with AD's, then its airworthiness status is in question, no? The buyer might need to re-perform every applicable AD during the first annual.

Even if the buyer doesn't care about the aircraft history, it will materially reduce the resale value when he goes to sell it. He should add this consideration to his offer.
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Probably of low-concern on an Experimental/Home-built category aircraft. Not zero concern, but low, especially in this case with a plane barely over a decade old.
 
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