You ever been ramp checked?

Ron Levy said:
The FSDO's have a system called the Program Tracking and Reporting Subsystem (PTRS) by which they measure whether Inspectors are doing as much work as they are supposed to. Use of this system is mandated by FAA Order 1380.51, and is managed according to the PTRS Procedures Manual (PPM). They have must do so many of certain kinds of activity every month, and can substitute some number of one activity for some number of another based on a point system. You can find the PPM at http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/other/ptrs_procedures_manual.htm.
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I'm very aware of how PTRS works, but that doesn't support your claim in the previous post of "One point to remember is that the inspectors get more brownie points for checking 121 and 135 operations, so they tend to gravitate towards those."

That statement is simply not true.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I'm very aware of how PTRS works, but that doesn't support your claim in the previous post of "One point to remember is that the inspectors get more brownie points for checking 121 and 135 operations, so they tend to gravitate towards those."

That statement is simply not true.
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Well, all the inspectors at the local FSDO seem to feel otherwise. YMMV.

BTW, when's the last time you filled out a PTRS form?
 
One Short said:
Tim,

Then, it was only good for 3 years. Kate, although not that old, has been around awhile. :smile:

Barb
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But it's good for five NOW, even if it was issued THEN.

Edit: I assumed (and we all know how that turns out) that Kate was talking about a recent ramp check, and it was after the changes.
BTW, student pilot certs were recently extended to 5 years too.
 
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Okay...fun fact. FAA Flight Inspection is a honest to goodness FAR 135 operation. All of the rules, and a whole bunch more, apply to our operations and part of that includes being subject to the same ramp inspections that anyone else enjoys. I've been ramped in some pretty interesting places by geographical inspectors as well as at our operations bases. Just folks out doing their jobs. :)
 
Twice. The first was on my pp checkride at CHA.

The second was on the ramp at JZP. During the Olympics in ATL, the local FSDO guys were told to go out into the field instead of coming to the office due to traffic concerns. One came to the airport, asked us a question of two, then pulled up a chair under the wing and visited a while.

Deb
 
They have tried to ramp me, a few times to my face, and once they walked into my hangar and started looking over my plane...
The first time, I landed at an airport where the FSDO is located and parked at the FBO, about a 100 yards from the FSDO building - I was there to to fly a dealer's plane I was considering buying... Two guys came running (actually) out the door of the FSDO building and ran towards me... The faster got there first and the other guy turned around and went back... As the guy was running at me the wife asks, "What is going on?" ... He smiled and breathlessly told me he was there to perform a ramp inspection... I smiled and told him that I was busy and did not have time to talk... If he needed official contact with me to send a registered letter and my attorney will designate a time and place... He wanted to argue but finally got the message... He walked away looking like a puppy that had been spanked - I suspect his buddy at the FSDO was laughing at him from the window... I expected a letter, but never got one...

Another time an inspector came running out of the terminal building (my home airport) as I was boarding my plane, waving at me... I don't respond to strangers waving at me - momma warned me about strange men when I was real little... I fired up... He went back into the terminal and a minute later the line boy came on the radio and said the FAA wanted to talk to me.. I told him to advise them (assuming they were standing right there listening) that I had business to attend and no time to talk and that ANY time, without exception, they wanted to chat they needed to make an appointment like anyone else... Never heard anything from them...

There was an incident many years back at Oshkosh where I was sitting under a wing watching the aerobatics... This was a really nice Aero Commander that had a high wing that was just perfect for shade... He waltzes up and flashes his wallet at me and says, "we are going to do a ramp check, now." I look him up and down carefully whilst I am thinking the situation over, I make a command decision and then advise him where in his anatomy his ramp check would fit nicely... His ears get red and he growls, "I'll be back."... Now this was long before the Terminator movies, so he did not sound like Ahhnold... So after he is out of sight, stomping his way towards the control tower, I pick up my chair and move a dozen rows further and sit under the wing of a really nice 180... Never saw him again...

The hangar incident was interesting... I was changing oil and rotating spark plugs on Fat Albert The Apache, when I needed a longer pair of needle nose pliers.. So I jump in the car and run to the parts store about 3 miles away... What I did not know was that the FAA and the State of Michigan were making a joint inspection of the airport, going into the hangers (county owned hangars and the manager was there unlocking the hangars with his master key) and recording the tail numbers, etc.(post 9-11) Anyway, I was barely out of sight when they walk onto the main ramp and there is my overhead door all the way up, cowlings off the engines, cases of oil and boxes of filters in plain view, and trouble light shining brightly as it hung from one cowling... Ohhh, they were in heaven... They rushed into the hangar and began intently peering at the engines and pawing the boxes of parts, while peppering Al, the manager, with questions... After a minute they realize that AL is not saying anything... They turn and look at him... He is still standing out on the ramp... He then tells them, hey guys, you do know this hangar is private property don't you? And the owner is a hard nosed, SOB, who will sue your socks off if he finds you in here... He told me you never saw 3 guys scoot so fast to get back out to the ramp...

Now, lest you all think I am some kind of anarchist, I am not... I spent years being a police and fire surgeon and I am a supporter of public safety officers - these guys put their lives on the line for peanuts in pay... But, there are laws delineating the powers of the 'state' to stop and interrogate citizens in a public place - and every working officer knows those like the back of his hand... Unless you are prepared to place me under arrest, handcuff me, and take me to the station and book me, then you need to make an appointment, period...

denny-o
 
I've heard folks tell stories like Denny's before, and 99% of them are only loosely connected to the actual facts.

There is no legal foundation to the idea that the FAA must make an appointment with you to inspect your certificates or conduct a ramp inspection. The law on presentation of your pilot and aircraft documents for inspection on demand, any time, anywhere, is clear. In nearly any situation, refusal to present your documents any time, any where, on demand, results in an enforcement action to which there is virtually no legal defense. Cases like this have gone all the way through to the courts, and the FAA has always prevailed. While you can tell the inspector that you would be unduly delayed by a full ramp inspection, at which point the Inspector has the option to terminate the inspection, you cannot legally refuse to present your pilot and medical certificates and photo ID to any FAA Inspector, NTSB Investigator, or Federal/state/local law enforcement officer. If it's an LEO, you can even be arrested and charged criminally if you refuse to comply.

Also, while the FAA does tell its inspectors not to conduct "blanket" ramp checks of spectator's aircraft at air shows, there is nothing to prevent them from ramp-checking a spectator's aircraft if they have reason to investigate that aircraft (say, observation of a regulatory violation), and you cannot legally refuse to allow the inspection if you're just sitting there under the wing watching the show.

Caveat aviator.
 
Ron Levy said:
After 40 years and over 8000 hours, I've not been ramp-checked (although I've participated in some ramp check demos). OTOH, I know one or two folks who've been checked many times in only a fraction of the years and hours. One point to remember is that the inspectors get more brownie points for checking 121 and 135 operations, so they tend to gravitate towards those. Also, distance from the FSDO tends to be a factor in the likelihood that an inspector is out there checking, as well as traffic levels. Small, sleepy airports a long way from the FSDO may get visited a couple of time a year, and that's it, but a big, busy airport across town from the office may see FAA folks on a weekly basis or more (especially if there's a good airport restaurant -- cops and doughnuts, FAA Inspectors and cheeseburgers).
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You missed one other qualifier: How close is the airport to the inspectors home so he can come out there on a Friday afternoon then go home :)
 
Ron Levy said:
I've heard folks tell stories like Denny's before, and 99% of them are only loosely connected to the actual facts.

There is no legal foundation to the idea that the FAA must make an appointment with you to inspect your certificates or conduct a ramp inspection. The law on presentation of your pilot and aircraft documents for inspection on demand, any time, anywhere, is clear. In nearly any situation, refusal to present your documents any time, any where, on demand, results in an enforcement action to which there is virtually no legal defense. Cases like this have gone all the way through to the courts, and the FAA has always prevailed. While you can tell the inspector that you would be unduly delayed by a full ramp inspection, at which point the Inspector has the option to terminate the inspection, you cannot legally refuse to present your pilot and medical certificates and photo ID to any FAA Inspector, NTSB Investigator, or Federal/state/local law enforcement officer. If it's an LEO, you can even be arrested and charged criminally if you refuse to comply.

Also, while the FAA does tell its inspectors not to conduct "blanket" ramp checks of spectator's aircraft at air shows, there is nothing to prevent them from ramp-checking a spectator's aircraft if they have reason to investigate that aircraft (say, observation of a regulatory violation), and you cannot legally refuse to allow the inspection if you're just sitting there under the wing watching the show.

Caveat aviator.
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So if the FAA person tells you he's going to ramp check an airplane you happen to be sitting near...?

How about entering a private hangar?

For example, I know FSDO folks who have been asked to leave hangars when they "drop by." The collection of aircraft/motorcyle/boat parts that happens to be in the hangar is of no business to the FAA unless someone is clearly about to -- or has just -- flown it.

Obviously if you are stepping out after parking you are flying and therefore under FAA purview.

It's not so clear cut when they start walking into hangars...
 
dmccormack said:
How about entering a private hangar?

For example, I know FSDO folks who have been asked to leave hangars when they "drop by." The collection of aircraft/motorcyle/boat parts that happens to be in the hangar is of no business to the FAA unless someone is clearly about to -- or has just -- flown it.

Obviously if you are stepping out after parking you are flying and therefore under FAA purview.

It's not so clear cut when they start walking into hangars...
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The FAA Inspector cannot enter a private hangar without prior permission.

dmccormack said:
So if the FAA person tells you he's going to ramp check an airplane you happen to be sitting near...?
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I'd tell him to go right ahead :D (especially if it's not my plane)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The FAA Inspector cannot enter a private hangar without prior permission.
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Exactly -- unless he's accompanied by LE with a warrant or probable cause.

Rotor&Wing said:
I'd tell him to go right ahead :D (especially if it's not my plane)
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The point is you can tell him anything unless the FAA inspector first asked: "Is this your airplane?"
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The FAA Inspector cannot enter a private hangar without prior permission.
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FAA Order 8900.1 said:
1-198. ACCESS TO PRIVATE AIRPORTS, LANDING STRIPS, AND OTHER AREAS. ASIs must advise the owner or agent of a private facility of their desire to enter the premises and the purpose of the visit. An ASI has no authority to enter private property without the owner’s permission. As a courtesy, the owner or agent should be invited to accompany the ASI, as this gesture may encourage further cooperation. If the owner or agent is unable to accompany the ASI, the ASI should request permission for access to aircraft for the stated purposes. However, FAA Form 110A authorizes ASIs to be in a restricted area without escort while conducting official FAA inspections.

1-199. ACCESS TO PUBLIC AIRPORTS. The ASI should give airport management/security sufficient notice of the visit. If the occasion warrants, airport management may be invited to accompany the ASI.

1-200. DENIAL OF ACCESS. ASIs must consider that entry onto the property of another without authority or permission may be construed as trespassing, regardless of intent. It is rare that an ASI is denied access for the purpose of conducting official duties; however, such a case should be referred to the appropriate supervisory authority.
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Note the "or agent" parts -- if the airport manager has authority to enter (standard in many hangar lease agreements to facilitate fire marshal inspections, hangar maintenance, etc), the airport manager can let the FAA accompany him/her.
 
Ron Levy said:
Note the "or agent" parts -- if the airport manager has authority to enter (standard in many hangar lease agreements to facilitate fire marshal inspections, hangar maintenance, etc), the airport manager can let the FAA accompany him/her.
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Note: I said Private Hangar.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Note: I said Private Hangar.
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JOOC, what do you consider a "private hangar"? I think most folks would take that to include a hangar you lease from the airport for your exlusive use on the airport's property (which the manager may have permission to enter as part of a lease), but maybe you have a different and more exclusive definition.
 
Ron Levy said:
Note the "or agent" parts -- if the airport manager has authority to enter (standard in many hangar lease agreements to facilitate fire marshal inspections, hangar maintenance, etc), the airport manager can let the FAA accompany him/her.
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Hmmm.....

Certain states (such as New York) require prior arrangement with the renter/leasee before the owner/agent can enter for any purpose other than emergency.

So this may be subject to state law, though I don't have time to research now.
 
Ron Levy said:
JOOC, what do you consider a "private hangar"? I think most folks would take that to include a hangar you lease from the airport for your exlusive use on the airport's property (which the manager may have permission to enter as part of a lease), but maybe you have a different and more exclusive definition.
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I have owned 3 "private hangars" on an airport. Two of them were on attached "private property" in which we (the association) held the deed with a 99 year "deeded" access agreement with the city. It was a condo arraignment in which members owned their individual hangars, thus making it "private".

My other hangar (80x80) was on the airport on leased land but my lease stipulated no access without prior permission of the owner (me).
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I have owned 3 "private hangars" on an airport. Two of them were on attached "private property" in which we (the association) held the deed with a 99 year access agreement with the city. It was a condo arraignment in which members owned their individual hangars, thus making it "private".

My other hangar (80x80) was on the airport on leased land but my lease stipulated no access without prior permission of the owner (me).
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There you go -- Inspector must contact you first in those cases. However, these are probably atypical of what most folks call a "private hangar."
 
Ron Levy said:
There you go -- Inspector must contact you first in those cases. However, these are probably atypical of what most folks call a "private hangar."
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The ASI still cannot come inside a "leased hangar" where your typical aircraft owner keeps his airplane on his own accord.
 
Ron Levy said:
There you go -- Inspector must contact you first in those cases. However, these are probably atypical of what most folks call a "private hangar."
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Nope, pretty much the same situation I have as well.
 
Dr. O said:
There was an incident many years back at Oshkosh where I was sitting under a wing watching the aerobatics... This was a really nice Aero Commander that had a high wing that was just perfect for shade... He waltzes up and flashes his wallet at me and says, "we are going to do a ramp check, now." I look him up and down carefully whilst I am thinking the situation over, I make a command decision and then advise him where in his anatomy his ramp check would fit nicely... His ears get red and he growls, "I'll be back."... Now this was long before the Terminator movies, so he did not sound like Ahhnold... So after he is out of sight, stomping his way towards the control tower, I pick up my chair and move a dozen rows further and sit under the wing of a really nice 180... Never saw him again...
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I wonder what he would have said if you had responded "What's a ramp check?" :D
 
The encounters I relate happened exactly as related...
I own my hangar, which sits on leased land... The FAA is welcome to inspect the outside of the building, from the ramp...
If they insist on interrogating me or inspecting my plane they will make an appointment through my attorney, period...


Did you folks not pay attention to the Bob Hoover crucifiction
Or the CFI who was screwed into the ground by the FAA for being a passenger in the back seat when a plane violated airspace
Or the Daryl Phillips case

- where he took the FAA to court and they withdrew their actions on the morning of trial rather than be subjected to legally (constitutional law) justifying their actions to a non FAA employed, judge (with the authority to punish)... The FAA attorney wanted absolutely-zero to do with a courtroom that was not stacked in his favor with a guaranteed outcome-

Those sheeple who want to hand their hard earned airman's certificate to someone who walks up to them and flashes a wallet might want to get the wool out of their eyes and smell the coffee. (how's that for metaphors?)
The FAA inspector is not your friend, he is not looking out for your interest, he believes his authority supercedes any and all laws... He has a quota to meet and a gun belt to notch if he wants promotions... If you hand him the airplane docs and your certificate, you are a fool... I try hard not to be a fool...

denny-o
 
Ron Levy said:
The law on presentation of your pilot and aircraft documents for inspection on demand, any time, anywhere, is clear.
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I know that 61.3 requires you to present your pilot and medical certificates for inspection on request, but where is the requirement to present aircraft documents on request?

I'm not taking a position on whether it exists or not; I just want to know where it is.
 
Dr. O said:
Did you folks not pay attention to the Bob Hoover crucifiction
Or the CFI who was screwed into the ground by the FAA for being a passenger in the back seat when a plane violated airspace
Or the Daryl Phillips case
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So, in order to avoid a phony violation, you're going to give them a real violation to hang you on?

I can see arguing that they don't have the right to demand that you shut down after you have boarded and started the aircraft, and even if the airport manager had been wrong about what he told the FAA inspectors at your hangar, you weren't even there during the incident, but I don't see any way to argue that your first and third examples weren't clear violations of 14 CFR 61.3.
 
Dr. O said:
Or the CFI who was screwed into the ground by the FAA for being a passenger in the back seat when a plane violated airspace
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No, I don't know about that one. Can you provide details?
Those sheeple who want to hand their hard earned airman's certificate to someone who walks up to them and flashes a wallet might want to get the wool out of their eyes and smell the coffee. (how's that for metaphors?)
The FAA inspector is not your friend, he is not looking out for your interest, he believes his authority supercedes any and all laws... He has a quota to meet and a gun belt to notch if he wants promotions... If you hand him the airplane docs and your certificate, you are a fool... I try hard not to be a fool...
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Given the regulations and precedent case law on point, I think the fool is anyone who listens to the bad advice from "Dr O."
 
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Palmpilot said:
I know that 61.3 requires you to present your pilot and medical certificates for inspection on request, but where is the requirement to present aircraft documents on request?

I'm not taking a position on whether it exists or not; I just want to know where it is.
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That's a good question, and I don't know the full answer. I know that 91.203 requires the airworthiness certificate to be on display, and the registration to be in the plane. I know that Sections 44709 and 44713 of the US Code give the FAA the authority to inspect aircraft. I suppose it's some combination of those. Note in Administrator v. Wheeler that failure to produce valid registration and airworthiness certificates upon Inspector demand led to a finding of an operation in violation of 91.203.
 
I've been "ramped" 4 times in 5 years and each time they also asked to see the airworthiness and registration which I happily showed them without handing them over.
 
PittsDriver said:
I've been "ramped" 4 times in 5 years and each time they also asked to see the airworthiness and registration which I happily showed them without handing them over.
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That's fine, as long as it's OK with the inspector, but they have the authority to inspect the certificates to determine whether they are forgeries. Refusing to allow that inspection would be unwise. OTOH, refusing after inspection to return a valid certificate not under order of suspesion or revocation would, for the inspector, also be most unwise.
 
dmccormack said:
There was some discussion on the aeronca list that certain FSDOs will ground an airplane using a copy of an AW Cert.

Mine was issued in 1940.
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Only the original of the currently valid certificate is legal for 91.203 (ditto for reg certs). Photocopies are not. However, if your 1940-vintage AW cert is getting tattered, make a copy now, because the copy will help get a new cert issued more quickly if the old one falls apart into illegibility or disappears entirely.

BTW, the reason the FAA doesn't permit photocopies of certificates is that it would make it harder to enforce suspensions or revocations of airman or aircraft certificates.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only the original of the currently valid certificate is legal for 91.203 (ditto for reg certs). Photocopies are not. However, if your 1940-vintage AW cert is getting tattered, make a copy now, because the copy will help get a new cert issued more quickly if the old one falls apart into illegibility or disappears entirely.

BTW, the reason the FAA doesn't permit photocopies of certificates is that it would make it harder to enforce suspensions or revocations of airman or aircraft certificates.
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My AW Cert is in pretty good shape (It was re-issued in 1979, IIRC).

I suppose it makes sense from an enforcement angle, but seems a bit silly as a photocopy of Proof of Insurnace is sufficient in an automobile.

:dunno:
 
1/2 Rampchecked once, Almost Ramped checked twice.

First time was just after I bought my sweet orange 182. I was meeting someone for lunch at the 56th fighter group rest at FRG. I parked on the town ramp. As I was taxing in, I looked upstairs at the FSDO to see 3-4 guys in suits pointing out the window at my plane & hurrying to get their coats.. F-Me... 2 of them come trotting across the ramp and asked me what I thought I was doing flying this plane around??? I handed them the pink slip & that stopped em in their tracks. They didn't ask for anything else & just walked away mumbling the name of the guy I bought the plane from. To this day I still have no idea what it was all about.


2nd time was on the cargo ramp at RDU. 8pm, one guy in about the same mood as the FRG guys. Gimme the paperwork for this Caravan... As I open the door of the plane, he says Oh? this is a Martinaire plane? Where is the Ratiner Caravan, I have to check him tonight?..... I pointed to the UPS ramp & said he will be here soon..... Escaped yet again.

3rd time was on the fedex ramp at Bradley Int. I just finished for the night & just locked the door of the Caravan.. as I was walking away from the plane with the thought of fresh cookies & coffee from Signature on my mind... There is MR FAA. "Hey whos plane is that" he asked me. I thinks it is Wiggins sir & I just kept walking :)
 
Ron Levy said:
That's fine, as long as it's OK with the inspector, but they have the authority to inspect the certificates to determine whether they are forgeries.
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In the certified Pitts, the airworthiness certificate is mounted behind a clear plastic window under and behind the panel. As you might imagine, in a purpose built aerobatic aircraft there ain't many places to "display" anything. When asked during a ramp check to show it to him, I told him that I'd be happy to if he didn't mind waiting the 30 or so minutes it would take for me to get to it, get it out, and get it back in place when he was done with it. He tried to poke his head down inside the cockpit to see it and then decided it was OK.

I was told that this particular ramp check was because I flew a pattern that was too tight/close in to the runway after an aircraft pulled out in front of me to take off while I was on a 1/4 mile final. I had to go around which I did with no hot dogging or low pass. I got the ramp check and a lecture about how I should be flying the same 1/2 - 3/4 mile finals that everyone else was flying. I asked him if his position on this matter was open for discussion and it wasn't. So, I did what I've done every time I've been ramp checked which is treat him like I would my best friend with kindness, respect, and courtesy and indulged him until he was through with me.

If I had one piece of advice to give anyone about how to conduct yourself during a ramp check it would be to treat the FAA official like they were a friend you hadn't yet made. Some of them are just doing their job and some are total flamin' tools but both categories have the same authority and all the risks in that encounter are yours.
 
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