Yet another which plane should I consider threat...

[TimRF79]

Currently thinking of my next plane.
I know it is going to be a 182, as 206's are just too expensive.
I want creature comfort, and ability to fly IFR (even though I usually don't), def need a good AP.
The cost of the plane is not so much a factor as the monthly payments.

• This means a 63 182F (5,500 TT, 1,400SMOH) with glass and current avionics comes to $800 p.m.
• A 98 182S (1,300 TT/SMOH) with steam and last gen avionics comes to $1,500 p.m.
• and a 2004 T182T (2,200 TT/SMOH) with damage history and hail, G1000 non WAAS comes to $1,100 p.m.

While it may not be any of these planes, based on my research they are a good reflection of where the market currently is.

It seems to me that spending $700 more a month to get a 25year newer plane is worth it.
Whereas $400 savings to just have to deal with a potentially non upgradeable G100 and a run out engine, may not be worth it.

Thoughts?



Links:
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...F+SKYLANE&listing_id=2388861&s-type=aircraft#
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...2S+SKYLANE&listing_id=2389950&s-type=aircraft
https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1194/2004-cessna-t182t-turbo-skylane

 

[MarkH]

The threat is not necessary we will all happy talk about how you should spend your money.

If I'm spending that kind of money, I want a WAAS GPS, and would prefer a glass panel.

I would drop the 2004 from consideration, unless I had an explicit reason to pay for the extra maintenance of a turbo. Then if I decided that I was willing to pay for a turbo, I would look for one that is not timed out.

That would leave the 1963, which feels expensive to me (granted, I have no idea what the market for 182s looks like). But I would insure that a prebuy on a plane that old includes a bore scope inspection of the common points of corrosion (like wing spars(, and I would verify when (as in date) the engine overhaul was completed.

Last, based on the prices of these planes I must ask, have you considered a V-Tail Bo?

 

[TimRF79]

Last, based on the prices of these planes I must ask, have you considered a V-Tail Bo?

I am selling a Bellanca Super Viking, because I want more room (I am 6'6"/ 280lbs), the comfort of 2 doors and like the idea of high wing, so i dont have to lay on a dirty floor to sump tanks...

 

[texasclouds]

Cessna One Ninety Five

 

[MarkH]

I am selling a Bellanca Super Viking, because I want more room (I am 6'6"/ 280lbs), the comfort of 2 doors and like the idea of high wing, so i dont have to lay on a dirty floor to sump tanks...

That was (mostly) a joke.

 

[asicer]

Not sure if it's a factor, but I think the seats in the restart 182 are more comfy than the legacy 182. Also, 3-blade props are also more comfy albeit a couple knots slower than 2-blade.

 

[Grum.Man]

Well all of those choices are either coming up on TBO or already past it. You may get lucky and go past, but maybe not. So add in 30-60k for overhaul to your finance plan. I would skip the turbo unless you live in the Midwest. Personally I would get the oldest one and and plan to upgrade and overhaul your self.

 

[Jim K]

 

[samiamPA]

You may not like this, but I think it's pretty shortsighted to think of airplane purchase price in terms of monthly payments. The purchase price is the amount you are spending on it, and that's just the beginning. It may make you feel better to say it's "only" $400 per month or $700 per month more, but you are actually spending the extra hundred grand.

 

[TimRF79]

Well all of those choices are either coming up on TBO or already past it. You may get lucky and go past, but maybe not. So add in 30-60k for overhaul to your finance plan. I would skip the turbo unless you live in the Midwest. Personally I would get the oldest one and and plan to upgrade and overhaul your self.

Since I fly maybe 100hrs per year and the 182s has a TBO of 2,000hrs. This means the 98 gives me 7 years to TBO, and with some good care these engines often do 2,200 hours (based on what I read).
The other thing is, I am not an A&P and only have the weekends for my hobbies. Working on a plan and flying is it just not going to happen. I have to hire a shop for any work that needs to be done.

You may not like this, but I think it's pretty shortsighted to think of airplane purchase price in terms of monthly payments. The purchase price is the amount you are spending on it, and that's just the beginning. It may make you feel better to say it's "only" $400 per month or $700 per month more, but you are actually spending the extra hundred grand.

Well... I work in finance and we can happily have a conversation of financial management...but this is not for this thread

 

[Grum.Man]

Since I fly maybe 100hrs per year and the 182s has a TBO of 2,000hrs. This means the 98 gives me 7 years to TBO, and with some good care these engines often do 2,200 hours (based on what I read).
The other thing is, I am not an A&P and only have the weekends for my hobbies. Working on a plan and flying is it just not going to happen. I have to hire a shop for any work that needs to be done.


Well... I work in finance and we can happily have a conversation of financial management...but this is not for this thread

So add $600.00 per month to the payment of the 98 to pay for an engine and prop overhaul after 7 years. So 2k per month for the plane, 300 for a hangar, let’s say 200 a month minimum for annual, 400-500 per month for insurance. So 3k per month to fly 100 hours a year?

 

[TimRF79]

So add $600.00 per month to the payment of the 98 to pay for an engine and prop overhaul after 7 years. So 2k per month for the plane, 300 for a hangar, let’s say 200 a month minimum for annual, 400-500 per month for insurance. So 3k per month to fly 100 hours a year?

So with your point for which of 3 planes are making an argument?

 

[MarkH]

So add $600.00 per month to the payment of the 98 to pay for an engine and prop overhaul after 7 years. So 2k per month for the plane, 300 for a hangar, let’s say 200 a month minimum for annual, 400-500 per month for insurance. So 3k per month to fly 100 hours a year?

The guy owns a Viking, if someone with a wood and fabric plane does not know how to plan for maintenance on a 182, I doubt he has the credit to finance a TV at a rent a center much less an aircraft.

Just to clarify, I am suggesting we focus on the plane and assume @TimRF79 knows what he is doing.

 

[Grum.Man]

So with your point for which of 3 planes are making an argument?

I still say the oldest one as long as the airframe is in good shape. Pay for upgrades and overhauls as you can afford them. At least then you have what you want, and a fresh engine you can trust all while keeping the payment and insurance low.

 

[Geosync]

I fly a 2004 steam gauge T182T for work. That year had the option for G1000. I would go NA 182S/T 6 pack and just upgrade to GTN750/G5s. We still have the KAP140 and it more than enough for occasional IFR. It's a great airplane, but no need for the turbo unless you're in the Rockies, ours failed at 1500hrs and took the engine with it. Costly replacement. Good to have if the company is paying. But the restarts are fresher than the old school 182s and have the Lyco engine, have depreciated a bit, but will still hold value reasonably.

 

[Deelee]

I know it is going to be a 182

Since I feel threatened by this, I have to ask:

Have you considered ...

.... a Bonanza?

srsly. I would skip the turbo. More to maintain unless you really need it, I would skip it. What kind of glass is in that '63? Twin G3xs, and a 750... or a lowly G5 or Aspen? Hard to say. I would probably pass on all of these honestly. Are you really dead set on a 182?

 

[MountainDude]

I know the 182 prices are crazy, but a 1963 model with a high time engine for $150K is absurd.
I would not buy any one of these.
I would look for a P or Q model with a low time engine and either:
- barebones avionics, which you upgrade with what you like, or
- just the right amount of avionics that you need

 

[asicer]

A 98 182S (1,300 TT/SMOH) with steam and last gen avionics comes to $1,500 p.m.

How did you know the price? I clicked the link it said "call for price".

Oh hey, it's got ADF and a CD player! Woohoo!

What kind of glass is in that '63?

I clicked the link and it says:
PFD Aspen PFD 1000 with Synthetic Vision
MFD Aspen EFD 1000
Backup Attitude Indicator Sandia Aerospace SAI340A
Audio Panel PS Engineering PMA 8000C with Bluetooth
Com Nav GPS 1 Avidyne IFD 540
Com Nav GPS 2 Avidyne IFD 540
Transponder Garmin GTX 327
ADS-B IN & OUT Aspen ATX100 / Displays on Aspen & Avidyne
Autopilot STEC System 55X

 

[mondtster]

The 1963 airplane wouldn't even be a contender to me if I could afford a post restart airplane.

Of the three proposed airplanes, I'd probably take the '98 over the others even though it has the highest monthly rate. With lower time on the engine it might go longer before needing help and the radios can be incrementally upgraded.

 

[Ryan F.]

All automobile dealerships would like for us to think in terms of monthly payments rather than actual cost.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

All automobile dealerships would like for us to think in terms of monthly payments rather than actual cost.

Ain’t that the truth.

 

[TimRF79]

I would not buy any one of these.
I would look for a P or Q model with a low time engine and either:
- barebones avionics, which you upgrade with what you like, or
- just the right amount of avionics that you need

This would then fit the bill:
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...2P+SKYLANE&listing_id=2391537&s-type=aircraft
but here is the issue on this plane I would probably drop 120k on avionics and then I am at higher rate monthly then the 98 182S and have an older plane with more total time (but nicer avionics).
The whole idea of buying a plane with mostly what you want is so that someone else took the intial depreciation hit.

All automobile dealerships would like for us to think in terms of monthly payments rather than actual cost.

Oh they really don’t like that...
I normally walk in and tell what I want to pay per month and then when they ask me how this is going to work I explain that they have all the knobs to make it happen (car price, interest rate, trade value, tenor).
Then I lean back and keep repeating that my number is my number and they need to figure out how to get there.

 

[AnthonyS1]

Why a C182? Are you regularly flying with 4 or operating out of short/grass strips??? You can get a nice bonanza for around the same price range and will have significantly better speed/efficiency and range. I don't understand the cult following of the C182 at all. Flying in the bush sure they're great. For every other aspect their are much much better options.

 

[TimRF79]

Why a C182? Are you regularly flying with 4 or operating out of short/grass strips??? You can get a nice bonanza for around the same price range and will have significantly better speed/efficiency and range. I don't understand the cult following of the C182 at all.

Here a few of my thoughts:
I would like a high wing as I am tired of crawling under a wing to sump tanks.
I am 6’6” and want to be comfortable
Want to have 2 doors or at least a door on pilot side as I am tired of climbing into my plane
Want to be able to carry 4 ppl (total 750lbs) and fuel for 3 hours
Plane needs to be on GMC500 or 55x stc list
Ability to get EASY into a 2’500 ft grass strip at 3k density altitude
Fixed gear

 

[asicer]

I normally walk in and tell what I want to pay per month and then when they ask me how this is going to work I explain that they have all the knobs to make it happen (car price, interest rate, trade value, tenor).

"Sure we can do that, just 600 easy payments."

 

[AnthonyS1]

Here a few of my thoughts:
I would like a high wing as I am tired of crawling under a wing to sump tanks.
I am 6’6” and want to be comfortable
Want to have 2 doors or at least a door on pilot side as I am tired of climbing into my plane
Want to be able to carry 4 ppl (total 750lbs) and fuel for 3 hours
Plane needs to be on GMC500 or 55x stc list
Ability to get EASY into a 2’500 ft grass strip at 3k density altitude
Fixed gear

Then I guess the C182 is the plane for you lol!

 

[TimRF79]

Then I guess the C182 is the plane for you lol!

Honestly coming from a Super Viking it aches in my heart a little, hahaha.
Guess it’s time to admit I am old and fat

looked into Maules (tricycle), but a 7 doesn’t carry enough and a 9 only comes as TW.
All other high wings I found at TW... and I don’t like ground loops.

 

[TimRF79]

"Sure we can do that, just 600 easy payments."

Actually interest rates go up as terms get longer and lenders don’t like terms longer than the live of the asset.
So there is some “natural” and “arithmetic” limit to the tenor.

 

[mondtster]

Actually interest rates go up as terms get longer and lenders don’t like terms longer than the live of the asset.

Yet we're discussing financing a 1963 model year airplane in this thread? No way would I do that, it is well past its prime...

 

[TimRF79]

Yet we're discussing financing a 1963 model year airplane in this thread? No way would I do that, it is well past its prime...

Interestingly enough the “cut-off” for lenders in regard to airplanes is 1960 (based on what I found out)

 

[AA5Bman]

Can we just cut through all the fluff and talk about financing vs. paying cash again? That’s my other favorite one.

 

[mondtster]

Interestingly enough the “cut-off” for lenders in regard to airplanes is 1960 (based on what I found out)

Based on what I've seen repairing airplanes, I'd set the threshold a lot more recent than that. There's no way I'd lend money on a light airplane that old if I were a banker.

 

[TimRF79]

Based on what I've seen repairing airplanes, I'd set the threshold a lot more recent than that. There's no way I'd lend money on a light airplane that old if I were a banker.

The cutoff used to be 40 years.
I was surprised that it had moved to ~60 years .
However loan markets are generally frothy with lenders hungry for yields.
I imagine aircraft loans are rather save, and yields are very good.
Guess that is driving some of that.

 

[TimRF79]

Can we just cut through all the fluff and talk about financing vs. paying cash again? That’s my other favorite one.

Yeah, my golden rule finance as much as possible, pay cash as little as possible.
Pretty simple.

 

[mondtster]

The cutoff used to be 40 years.
I was surprised that it had moved to ~60 years .
However loan markets are generally frothy with lenders hungry for yields.
I imagine aircraft loans are rather save, and yields are very good.
Guess that is driving some of that.

I imagine aircraft loans are probably reasonably safe, at least for the time being. People in aviation generally seem to be honest and reliable.

My point was that old airplanes such as the 182 are pretty much bottomed out in valuation and are essentially always one annual away from being mechanically totaled. That is not something I'd be taking a loan out on and if I were a lender I'd be getting nervous that those old airplanes are becoming a higher risk.

The newer 182s will generally be less used up and haven't been around as long to suffer at the hands of hack mechanics and owners. There is a big difference between airplanes built in the 1960s and those built in the 1990s or 2000s.

 

[TimRF79]

Thank you that is good perspective

 

[GeorgeC]

I financed a 70 year old airplane, the payment was the cheapest and most predictable part of ownership.

 

[Barry]

I bought a 1965 182 a few years ago with a 1300 hr engine, nice interior, basic panel, but wasn’t flown a lot in the last 5 years and needed some upgrades for me. This was before I got my ppl. Compared to today’s prices I got it cheap, but have spent $ on it. Garmin 175 gps, 225 com, 2 reman cylinders, mag rebuild, wiring harness, exhaust, and so on. But I love it. My insurance is relatively cheap too, I’m a just 200hr pilot with a recent instrument. For all the reasons you often see a 182 is a good all around choice, and always has a market for resell. However if you go 60s or early 70s expect decently high annuals or regular maintenance, unless the previous owner spent the $. And you likely won’t find one exactly like you want, so think about upgrades. I only have a single axis AP, but connects to my gps for approaches and ok for me.

so if you find an older one at the right price and ok with more ongoing maintenance or upgrades, go for it! However there is a pay me now or pay me later aspect to plane ownership that is real. Sometimes is pay me now and later

edit: however for the OP, if you are a finance only person (I’m the opposite admit), rolling in ongoing maintenance $ or upgrades might be difficult or not possible. So this might not fit your situation after thinking about that angle.

 

[Barry]

After thinking more I would suggest the newest most well equipped 182 you can afford. Not bad advice for anyone, and probably the path I would go down if starting over, but I was just getting into aviation at the time and wasn’t sure how deep to go. My wife still fusses sometimes at the regular check writing.

 

[AlphaMike]

I was in your shoes 2 years ago . I knew I wanted a 182 but wasn’t sure what model I really wanted. After a ton of research I decided I wanted a P or Q model. The S and T models (I’ve flown several ) have nicer interior when stock. But that’s really the only upside in my opinion. The P and Q models typically have quite a bit more useful load. You can get a purely paper STC (fresh picks STC) that increases your takeoff weight by 150 lbs. There are plenty of other STCs available for them too. My plane has a Pponk engine which is basically a O470 transformed to a O520. It’s somewhere between 260 and 285 hp depending on who you ask. Either way it’s a serious upgrade in power. I don’t think you will be disappointed with any 182. Any one of them will definitely meet your mission requirements. Your biggest problem will be finding one before it’s already sold! They sell fast! Like same day the listing go’s up fast. It took me 6 months of trying before I found my plane. I got lucky and found it before it got listed. That will probably be your best bet. Join some Facebook groups and let everyone know you are in the market and what you want. Someone just might message you that they are thinking about selling but haven’t yet. Swoop in as fast as you can! They really do sell that fast.