Yet another deadly crash in Nepal

Himayeti said:
Low and slow on a clear day.

I've done this short flight several times and the terrain is not bad since it is just south of the Himalayas. Airport is at a mere 2,700 ft.

https://twitter.com/GerryS/status/1614588912898543622?t=9pJXqMERumFD_BYqq3T6bw&s=19
Click to expand...
Yes, with descending terrain after leaving Kathmandu. There, Bob Seger is singing in your head.
This sort of crash always worries me; would not the plane have two separate pitot/static systems? Would it also have stall warnings, possibly stick shakers?
But then again, an uncommanded excursion into beta for one propeller has brought down a few aircraft.
 
The video shows a very high angle of attack; however, it's not clear to me if the flaps had been deployed ... or not. Was the aircraft properly configured for approach/landing? It appears that the aircraft stalled at a low altitude and dropped the left wing, with the inevitable result. It looks like the weather was VMC, and the loss of airspeed indication (or other flight instrumentation) with solid visual references should not have led to a loss of control. Of course any mechanical failure on short final can tax even the most skilled pilot.
 
Flying Doc said:
Livestream Video on Twitter does not show any concerns among passengers before crash leading me to believe plane was mechanically ok up to that point of the stall. Flaps look deployed at start of livestream video.

https://twitter.com/ahmedviews_/status/1614627254960803840?s=46&t=gl2iy7tatN-vooQpacmDjw
Click to expand...

There are two separate videos (AHMED and Gupta) included in the above link, yet they are focused on the same piece of flaming wreckage: AHMED's at 26/30, and Gupta's at 12/45. This leads me to question the credibility of one, or both, of the videos. Also, is it possible for a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to have survived a flaming aircraft crash and to continue to record the post-crash fire?

Just wonderin'.
 
Capngrog said:
There are two separate videos (AHMED and Gupta) included in the above link, yet they are focused on the same piece of flaming wreckage: AHMED's at 26/30, and Gupta's at 12/45. This leads me to question the credibility of one, or both, of the videos. Also, is it possible for a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to have survived a flaming aircraft crash and to continue to record the post-crash fire?

Just wonderin'.
Click to expand...

Its on Twitter it must be true!!
 
Pretty standard herbie airplane setup. 3 pitot statics, with 2 ADCs.

Malfunctioning/water-compromised pitot-static took down the most expensive aircraft in USAF inventory, and that was a FBW airplane that was fighting them mind you. ATR is a much simpler aircraft flight control wise, though I don't know to what degree erroneous stick-pusher activation could lead to loss of control.

Based on the video, it looks as though the opposite could have been true: flying slower than indicated, and not cross checking angle of attack (does the ATR have AOA indicator?) or aural cues of aerodynamic buffet in lieu of stick shaker activation (whether precipitated by pitot static malfunction or not).

Questions also arise as to the maintenance angle. Flying with recurring/known malfunctions is no joke, but rather common depending on the employer. In fairness, my UPT class' SRO (senior rank guy by date of rank, basically our admin mouthpiec) died in England in an F-18C due to Spatial-D, arising from a failed INS system he knew was a repeat offender. In that instance it pains me because he pushed anyways (gethereitis), getting himself killed when he couldn't handle the resulting partial panel in IMC. But it's another thing altogether when pilots are not made aware (mx forms evidence available to pilots before flight) of recurring malfunctions mx would otherwise be privy to. Trust in one's maintenance provider is a key element to the fiat required to this effing job, and globalization has certainly made a mess of that trust. I digress.

Everybody stay safe out there.

Or it could have been stone cold occam and another Renslow situation, with people in position of responsibility and competence they have no business being in. Not familiar with the airline in question but that's another angle. Too soon to tell.
 
I agree with every thing you say, when it comes to flight in IMC; however, the video of the Yeti ATR upset shows VMC. In VMC, at low altitudes, one can always "look out the window" while paying attention to the sensory cues (as you pointed out, stick shaker etc.) being provided by the airplane itself.


hindsight2020 said:
Or it could have been stone cold occam and another Renslow situation, with people in position of responsibility and competence they have no business being in. Not familiar with the airline in question but that's another angle. Too soon to tell.
Click to expand...

I think that you're correct in that this crash investigation will reveal human errors at many levels.
 
Capngrog said:
There are two separate videos (AHMED and Gupta) included in the above link, yet they are focused on the same piece of flaming wreckage: AHMED's at 26/30, and Gupta's at 12/45. This leads me to question the credibility of one, or both, of the videos. Also, is it possible for a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to have survived a flaming aircraft crash and to continue to record the post-crash fire?

Just wonderin'.
Click to expand...

Witnesses have stated that some passengers survived the initial impact, but could not be rescued because of the post crash fire.
 
Capngrog said:
There are two separate videos (AHMED and Gupta) included in the above link, yet they are focused on the same piece of flaming wreckage: AHMED's at 26/30, and Gupta's at 12/45. This leads me to question the credibility of one, or both, of the videos. Also, is it possible for a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to have survived a flaming aircraft crash and to continue to record the post-crash fire?

Just wonderin'.
Click to expand...

Full version and with the description of who took the video. It was a live streaming.
https://fb.watch/i4bUo6Q8eO/
 
Young co-pilot on the plane.

I wonder who was flying the plane and whether this was a factor.

I actually had a sailplane flight where the mechanic had inverted the tubing of the static with the pitot. On tow, erroneous readings are common so I did not realize that the pitot had an issue until I released. As mentioned above, angle of attack was crucial in bringing me down safely. GPS speed is also useful if one knows the wind speed and direction on the ground (AWOS).

Many things probably led to this accident including lax maintenance regulations for planes, a culture where profit is placed above safety among the airlines, complacent and even complicit pilots with a system not focused on safety, and lack of pilot training when something goes wrong.

If you must fly in Nepal, helicopters are the safer option.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1614633573230968834?t=P7DyIfQYj-Zcbzqi21LQuQ&s=19
 
You're absolutely right about using aileron in the face of an incipient stall. It seems that the use of rudder is not something that is emphasized, or even taught, these days. The pedals on the floor aren't just for brakes.
 
Himayeti said:
Young co-pilot on the plane.

I wonder who was flying the plane and whether this was a factor.

I actually had a sailplane flight where the mechanic had inverted the tubing of the static with the pitot. On tow, erroneous readings are common so I did not realize that the pitot had an issue until I released. As mentioned above, angle of attack was crucial in bringing me down safely. GPS speed is also useful if one knows the wind speed and direction on the ground (AWOS).

Many things probably led to this accident including lax maintenance regulations for planes, a culture where profit is placed above safety among the airlines, complacent and even complicit pilots with a system not focused on safety, and lack of pilot training when something goes wrong.

If you must fly in Nepal, helicopters are the safer option.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1614633573230968834?t=P7DyIfQYj-Zcbzqi21LQuQ&s=19
Click to expand...

I read on another board that the copilot was doing a check ride for her captain's rating. Her husband was a copilot for the same airline and died in a crash some 16 years previously.
 
Weren’t they coming in to land at a short field? I thought I had read that. If so, could it be as simple as getting to slow as they wanted to be no faster than ‘on speed’ for the landing?

I’ve seen some that don’t take a computed approach speed as seriously as they should, accepting to much on the low side, slow to correct.
 
Boxes recovered. Gonna be an interesting transcript.

I'll bet Anju had the controls......
 
Pilawt said:
Juan Browne (Blancolirio) shows a still from one of the videos, as the left wing is dropping. The magnified image appears to show full right aileron deflection - exactly the wrong response to a stall and incipient spin.
Click to expand...

At some 200ft AGL, there are few maneuvers that will get you out of a stall/spin.

Blancolirio should be looking at the big picture. Wrong aileron input is the final mistake in a long string of errors. The accident started several minutes earlier with a poor landing setup, but was in the making years before with lax aircraft regulations, poor maintenance (not even their transponder worked), greedy airlines and pilots with not enough training.

Buy hey, even an Asiana airlines pilot managed to stall a 777 10 years ago at SFO. They got lucky and did it closer to the runway.

As they say - "it ain't over till the chocks are in place..."
 
Himayeti said:
Young co-pilot on the plane.

I wonder who was flying the plane and whether this was a factor.

I actually had a sailplane flight where the mechanic had inverted the tubing of the static with the pitot. On tow, erroneous readings are common so I did not realize that the pitot had an issue until I released. As mentioned above, angle of attack was crucial in bringing me down safely. GPS speed is also useful if one knows the wind speed and direction on the ground (AWOS).

Many things probably led to this accident including lax maintenance regulations for planes, a culture where profit is placed above safety among the airlines, complacent and even complicit pilots with a system not focused on safety, and lack of pilot training when something goes wrong.

If you must fly in Nepal, helicopters are the safer option.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1614633573230968834?t=P7DyIfQYj-Zcbzqi21LQuQ&s=19
Click to expand...
To say that helicopter is safer is rather profound.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
To say that helicopter is safer is rather profound.
Click to expand...

Not really. Check out Lukla airport.This is a 1,700 ft long runway, at 9,300 feet MSL, with a wall at the end.

Your choice!
960x0.jpg
 
I've landed there both on a plane (Dornier) and a helicopter (Eurocopter).

While the 12% gradient helps, the braking remains pretty hard and they have to slam it on the numbers to avoid overruns. It's not an uncommon occurrence to hit the wall. http://avherald.com/h?article=43219597&opt=1025

And yes, as you show, the helicopters are safer for Lukla. They also have better maintenance! My biggest fear with helicopters there is that they overload them often. They're not into weighing baggage...

Lukla does not scare me as much as Jomsom for some reason. The latter had an accident recently where all were also killed.

So if climbing mountains there is not for the faint of heart, getting to them is perhaps the riskiest challenge.

20210117_173046.png
 
I would like to see what the pilots training and hours were. I met a helo pilot from Nepal that flies passengers that said in Nepal they dont have same requirements for commercial license, Instrument rating etc. Got his PPL in Florida and under 300 hours but said he didnt have a commercial or instrument license and could still fly for hire. I hope I just misunderstood him or helo requirements are different than fixed wing there.
 
One of the news sources reported that the CA was still in training and not yet signed off after logging 100 hours. If true that’s a whole lot of OE!
Keep in mind the same report attempted to teach the topic of an aerodynamic stall by comparing it to a refrigerator falling from a building:)
 
Maybe it's my ignorance, or just the fact that I've not yet had my morning coffee, but, in the context of your post, what are "CA" and "OE"?
 
Well, a refrigerator falling from a building is not flying. Thus, one can assume it to be fully stalled. Airdynamo-101
 
Capngrog said:
Maybe it's my ignorance, or just the fact that I've not yet had my morning coffee, but, in the context of your post, what are "CA" and "OE"?
Click to expand...

Ha, sorry. In the airline business CA is the standard abbreviation for Captain.
OE (operational experience) or IOE (initial operational experience) is the inflight portion of the pilots training. Generally ground school, procedural training, full motion simulator, and on to the airplane to fly OE with an instructor pilot. Assuming a traditional footprint 25 hours of OE is typical. Problem children can sometimes double that. Some (low hour) applicants are required to get additional to meet regs but 100 is unheard in my experience.
In all fairness, they probably operate under a totally different set of circumstances than our standard. Still a lot of hours at that level to stall on a VMC approach
 
texasclouds said:
Well, a refrigerator falling from a building is not flying. Thus, one can assume it to be fully stalled. Airdynamo-101
Click to expand...

Yeah.. Unlike a doomed refrigerator falling straight down an airplane has the capability to correct and recover from a stall. The news used the refrigerator comment to generate fear for attention. They failed to explain any design purposes, how easy it is to prevent or correct a stall and the fundamental stall prevention skills learned by all pilots.
 
Flying Doc said:
I would like to see what the pilots training and hours were. I met a helo pilot from Nepal that flies passengers that said in Nepal they dont have same requirements for commercial license, Instrument rating etc. Got his PPL in Florida and under 300 hours but said he didnt have a commercial or instrument license and could still fly for hire. I hope I just misunderstood him or helo requirements are different than fixed wing there.
Click to expand...

I have read she had over 6,400 hours and was getting to 100 hours as FO for Yeti. Not sure what she had in type or if she worked for another airline before signing with Yeti.
 
Den60 said:
I have read she had over 6,400 hours and was getting to 100 hours as FO for Yeti. Not sure what she had in type or if she worked for another airline before signing with Yeti.
Click to expand...
That would seem to be a lot of experience as a pilot. I suppose for argument sake if her driving didnt cause the stall what else could have while on final/glideslope? I would not thing the almost idle engine would be a cause? Could a left turbine failure or some other engine issue induce this?
 
Flying Doc said:
That would seem to be a lot of experience as a pilot. I suppose for argument sake if her driving didnt cause the stall what else could have while on final/glideslope? I would not thing the almost idle engine would be a cause? Could a left turbine failure or some other engine issue induce this?
Click to expand...

Hard to say at this point. There could have been some type of mechanical issue. The aircraft could have been misconfigured. Or it could be plain and simple pilot error. In both the Colgan Air 3407 and Asiana 214, the pilots failed to monitor their airspeed and allowed the aircraft to stall. Asiana was lucky because they were almost over the runway (seawall) when it happened.
 
Flying Doc said:
That would seem to be a lot of experience as a pilot. I suppose for argument sake if her driving didnt cause the stall what else could have while on final/glideslope? I would not thing the almost idle engine would be a cause? Could a left turbine failure or some other engine issue induce this?
Click to expand...
A prop reversing would flop that thing right on its back.
 
Pilawt said:
Juan Browne (Blancolirio) shows a still from one of the videos, as the left wing is dropping. The magnified image appears to show full right aileron deflection - exactly the wrong response to a stall and incipient spin.
Click to expand...

Some things never change*:

12969156523_cebcd4e8bf_w.jpg

*At least since 1944 when Stick and Rudder was first published, and assuming something like this was, in fact, the root cause.
 
Remind me not to fly near Napal

From May of last year - When a Tara Air flight crashed into a Himalayan mountain at an altitude of about 14,500 feet on Sunday it was Nepal’s 19th plane crash in 10 years and its 10th fatal one during the same period, according to the Aviation Safety Network database.

On another topic:

I'm not sure about the video of 69 people dying. For some reason I'm OK with similar images if it is historical. Even looking at still images of wreckage - doesn't phase me. But for a video of people right before they died, where families haven't even had the funerals yet, just seems to me too voyeuristic. Just M2C.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top