X-C Plane Selection Advice

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Anthony LoCurto

Filing Flight Plan
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Jul 28, 2022
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"Doc" LoCurto
I am moving to the DC area and I am in the market for my first plane so that I can visit family in the midwest more easily, and I am looking for some advice on plane selection based on cost of ownership and performance.

Mission
My typical mission will be from the DC area (KVKX) to SE Iowa (KBRL), which is about 680 nm. I would probably fly this trip 4 times a year, and the rest of my flying would be short vacations and golf trips round the area (< 300 nm). Annual flight time of about 100 hrs, and plane needs to be IFR capable. I really only need two seats for my wife and me and sufficient baggage for a weekend carry-on suitcase and/or golf clubs.

Experience
I have just under 180 hours with a PPL, no high-performance/complex time yet and I am wrapping up my instrument rating. I have mostly flown C172s, C150s, and Piper Cherokees (140 & 180).

Budget
I am looking to spend around $150k for the plane, and would like to keep annual cost of ownership down to <$16k.

So I am trying to optimize cost of flight hour to total time enroute. I am considering
  • M20J or M20K 262 since they seem to fit my mission and budget the best, but I am unsure about insurance costs since I have no HP/complex time and annual inspection costs with the added complexity of the airframe.
  • Cessna 172 and Piper 180 would give me good operating costs but would add 2-3 hrs compared to the Mooney (I could live with this but it's nice to fly fast).
  • Cirrus SR20 fits well but they are always so expensive upfront and I have read that the maintenance costs can be high due to the parachute which seems to remove the benefits of having a non-complex aircraft.
  • Piper Comanche and Beechcraft Debonair/Sierra/Sundowner seem reasonable with their fuel consumption vs cruise speed. But their speed isn't that much better than the Archer 180 compared to the added maintenance costs.
Not really considering the C182 or Cherokee Six because you don't seem to get that much better of performance compared to the fuel consumption.

Okay so this is a long list, but ultimately I am conflicted between swallowing some extra ownership costs for better performance, with remaining in my comfort zone but taking longer to get there. Any advice is welcomed.

A couple of questions:
  1. I feel like I should be considering de-ice systems since I will be flying in cold weather areas, does anyone have estimates on added costs for maintaining and/or for installing it in approved airframes?
  2. How bad is the insurance for HP/complex planes when you are first starting out?
  3. What is the cost difference for annual inspections of a fixed gear vs complex plane (just order of magnitude: $100s, $1000s difference?)
  4. Would it be better to consider a newer plane to reduce maintenance costs; how common are surprise issues on older planes, provided the plane had a solid prebuy inspection?
  5. Is it work buying a "project" plane and having an A&P refurbish it?
 
1) No experience - keeping my trap shut.

2) A complex/retractible will be "ouch" at first, on insurance, for you - but IMO, it's cheaper than buying something you don't want - flying it for a couple of years then stepping up.

3) Annual inspections vary a LOT based on the plane. I have a retractible PA-32, and my friend has a fixed-gear. Our annuals are generally $250 apart. This formula won't necessarily apply anywhere else.

4) There's lots of solid, older planes out there.

5) You wanna be wrenching and writing checks on a Not-a-priority project, or flying? (Yes, project airplanes go to the bottom of the schedule in an industry where every A&P is solid busy with flying airplanes right now.)
 
Welcome to the fun and challenging times of selecting a plane to fit your mission. Everyone has been here

your mission and choices seem at odds. The Mooney is a great choice for long distance cross country. There are some with anti ice but I think they are newer models. Some of your choices (musketeer’s) are relatively slow for that mission.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
A couple of questions:
  1. I feel like I should be considering de-ice systems since I will be flying in cold weather areas, does anyone have estimates on added costs for maintaining and/or for installing it in approved airframes?
  2. How bad is the insurance for HP/complex planes when you are first starting out?
  3. What is the cost difference for annual inspections of a fixed gear vs complex plane (just order of magnitude: $100s, $1000s difference?)
  4. Would it be better to consider a newer plane to reduce maintenance costs; how common are surprise issues on older planes, provided the plane had a solid prebuy inspection?
  5. Is it work buying a "project" plane and having an A&P refurbish it?
Click to expand...

1. Deice/FIKI is nice to have, but you need to know that it still won't allow you to fly whenever you want so you still need to plan flexibility into your trips. In my experience the systems generally don't cost that much to maintain, until you need something. A replacement deice boot and installation will almost certainly cost tens of thousands of dollars.

2. Insurance costs are based on many factors. Your lack of experience will be a detriment and drive prices up, but having an instrument rating should help. Don't be surprised if you get quotes between $5-10k initially, especially with aircraft with higher insured values.

3. The difference in the cost to inspect a fixed gear vs. a complex airplane should be minimal but ongoing costs to maintain the system can vary quite a bit. The same goes with maintaining the rest of the aircraft systems as well.

4. I've maintained both newer aircraft and older ones as well. It is far easier to find a newer aircraft that isn't all used up than it is to find an older one that is nice, but each prospective aircraft needs to be evaluated prior to purchase. I would not purchase a newer aircraft simply as an attempt to reduce maintenance costs.

5. I would not suggest buying a project as a first aircraft, nor would I recommend it if you think you want to use it at all while refurbishing it.
 
I flew from Chicago to the Florida panhandle a couple times a year for 15 years in a 182-RG. FIKI would have been nice but in all those years, we only had to cancel two trips for icing.

You are really going to want speed. The 150kts in the 182-RG made the trip doable for us.
 
Thanks for the quick responses!

I agree with the consensus that a project plane is more of a headache than buying something turn-key. Lots of fixed costs while you can't use it.

danjohnston thanks for the information, glad to know it wasn't that big of an issue for you.

I've looked at the Tiger but seems a little to slow, and by my estimates I would need two fuel stops for my long trip. I have always been worried about the useful load for the Bonanza because my friends complain about it, but for me they would work well. I guess for a complex plane I am the most interested in the M20's just because they are so fuel efficient
 
Just to note that a Debonair and Musketeer are very different planes. The Deb is similar to a Bonanza and has about 40kts on the Musketeer.
 
Welcome to PoA! Give a shout when you arrive, a bunch of us are local.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
…would like to keep annual cost of ownership down to <$16k….
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Your likely largest expense, fuel, will be entirely in your control. Other fixed expenses include hangar, insurance, database subscriptions, and any recurring taxes. As a datapoint, about the cheapest we can run our 172 all in is $5500/yr including cost of annual inspection but not repairs or upgrades. We also set aside $80/hr for an all in maintenance reserve so our variable expense is oil & gas plus $80/hr.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
I've looked at the Tiger but seems a little to slow, and by my estimates I would need two fuel stops for my long trip. I have always been worried about the useful load for the Bonanza because my friends complain about it, but for me they would work well. I guess for a complex plane I am the most interested in the M20's just because they are so fuel efficient
Click to expand...
“Bonanza” can mean a lot things, from 165hp all the way up to turbocharged 300hp. To some, a Debonair is a subset of Bonanza.

Figure a Tiger is 135-140kts at around 10gph (51 gallon tanks). That’s 1 fuel stop for your long trip (5 hours cruise). Perhaps you meant 2 bio stops?

Make sure you can fit in a Mooney before you settle on one. There’s been a lot of handwringing here about cabin dimensions, so I’ll just say that the shape and configuration isn’t for everyone.
 
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The 4x annual Iowa trip is an outlier. Fly commercial.

Buy the right plane for most of your mission, and accept a longer trip 4x a year or fly commercial.
 
Based on your list of wants and your budget, these are my thoughts - and boy -oh-boy am I about to get a bunch of people telling me I'm wrong, but at least you'll have some conversation points to consider. This is too long for some people too - oh well, I felt like typing, so suffer through it or don't.

There are other choices of course, but if I were in your situation, I'd be looking at...

Cessna 182 -
PROS = you can resell it fast, it's an easy plane for a low time pilot with 172 time to transition into. Insurance will be less than most of your other options. It'll carry all you need. It'll give you decent(-ish) speed. Parts and knowledgeable maintenance staff are common. Fuel burn is decent.
CONS = It's kind of slow if you compare it to a Bonanza with a big engine, a turbo Saratoga, an SR-22 or a more modern Mooney. Fuel burn is not really that great when you consider speed. It's a Cessna. Most people don't brag about how they handle and the interior fit and finish is on par with an early 80's Chrysler.

Beechcraft Bonanza (including the Debonair you mention)
PROS = Faster and Funner. Bonanza's come in a range of models with progressively more capability as you get into aircraft built in the later 60's on up to today. For your budget, you're probably looking at a Debonair (which is a model 33) or a V-Tail (Model 35). Debonairs come with engines that range from 225 horses to 300, speeds will range from 150 to 185 (KTAS) For a V-Tail, you want a "P" model or newer. I'd personally want either an S35 or a V35 - these are the last two models produced and have either 285 HP or 300 HP engines with impressive performance. You can get a lot of Bonanza for the money and they have a very robust owner community. They fly GREAT. very solid aircraft that were called the Cadillac of the sky back when Cadillac meant something as a brand. Fuel burn can be managed if you have a good engine monitor and balanced fuel injectors. I can burn 12.5 GPH and see 172 KTAS in my A36, or 18.5 GPH and see 185 KTAS. That's C182 fuel burn, but 30-50 knots faster. Much nicer fit and finish and prettier on the outside too. Bonanzas are built to Utility Category, other planes mentioned here are just "Normal" category. If you can stretch the budget into a model 36, then you'll have an amazing airplane. IMHO, the only upgrade from there would be something pressurized like a Malibu, Meridian, or something even more $$$$.
CONS =
Model 35 (with the V-tail) has a bad reputation for killing doctors and other people who had more money than training and experience back in the initial days of the brand. This is before the P35, S35 or V35 models. The ruddervators are made out of titanium and are expensive to replace if they have corrosion. Recently, those parts became a point of concern because Textron stopped making replacement skins for ruddervators. They are now making parts again, but people are nervous. You can usually get a V-Tail for less than a Model 33 (standard tail) because of this - just be certain you don't have any corrosion issues. insurance is higher - this is a retract with high performance. Reference the "Fork Tailed Doctor Killer" nickname. Annuals cost more than a C182. Plan for somewhere between 4K and 8K per year for the annual inspection and more than that if you don't shop wisely and if you don't pay for a good pre-inspection.
Additional comment on Bonanza's - Don't listen if a non-Bonanza owner tells you something negative. There is a wide range of Beechcraft that are called Bonanza's, make sure you speak with someone who knows the details.

PA32 Series - Cherokee 6, Lance, Saratoga
PROS = Big wide cabins that seat 6 or 7 and can lift a proverbial butt-load. Think "Chevy Suburban". The Turbo Saratogas can move along at a good clip, not the fastest, but certainly respectable speeds. Did I mention they have plenty of room? Decent looking planes. Better fit and finish than a Cessna, but not Beech level. A comfortable spouse is worth 10 to 20 knots of speed - maybe more. These come in Fixed Gear and Retract versions. There are owners here who can chime in if you want details.
CONS = These aircraft DO NOT sip gas. Plan for 18+GPH. fixed gear versions are slow. You'll pay just as much for an annual as you will on a Beechcraft. Insurance is probably similar in cost to a Bonanza, a bit less if it's a fixed gear version. Hull value and number of seats will probably drive most of your insurance cost. In my experience, the flying experience is like a big, very stable school bus. Not exciting, but maybe that's good?

Mooney
PROS = You can get a very efficient and strong plane if you go this route. Sips gas - this is the opposite of a big wide PA32. It's a retractable gear plane, but the gear is simple and stout.
CONS = These are the opposite of a comfy PA32. Tight Fit and you sit in a more reclined position than most other choices. You'll hear owners talk about Mooneys being just as wide (wider?) than a Bonanza, but that's just if you measure from a specific location. They are efficient because they present less of a profile to the air that they have to move through. Back seats in Mooneys are more like back seats in a Porsche. If you want to bring two sets of golf clubs with you, you should try it first. it'll fit, but it'll take up a bunch of the space. Retractable gear means more insurance $$ and a few hundred dollars more on the cost of the annual.
 
My thoughts:
  1. Icing systems: Disclaimer: I have NO experience owning or shopping for a FIKI plane. But... it sounds like it might be overkill to search for a FIKI plane in order to occasionally visit family / take recreational golf trips. You'll likely be totally fine just working your schedule around the weather.
  2. Complex plane insurance: Mine was about 3600$ as a new PPL (no IR) for my Piper Arrow (complex). After 18 months and a couple hundred hours in it, it's closer about $2k/yr. That was with a declared hull value of around 75k$.
  3. Annual costs: Not a significant difference in the base cost for an annual between complex/fixed gear from the folks I've talked to.
  4. Newer or older plane / how often are big issues found in old planes: For 150k$ you're unlikely to find a "newer" certified aircraft (I define that as newer than mid-90s). How often are big issues found in planes assuming solid prebuy? Could ask the guy who wrote this thread (good discussion on there about this topic): https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...eam-6-months-later-im-out-reddit-post.139008/
  5. Project plane with A&P refurb: I wouldn't do that. With A&P shortage you might not be flying for months or a year or more! And after all is said and done, you'll probably have a monstrous bill to pay the shop, so you *likely* wouldn't be saving money. That's a guess.
Couple other comments:
- I would go with @FancyG advice. If you're only going to DC->Iowa 4x a year, I wouldn't make any major decisions on the plane based on that. An extra hour en-route, or 1 extra fuel/bathroom stop each trip will be negligible in the grand scheme of your travels. Or you could always just fly commercial. If you were flying to California every month or so, I'd feel differently.
- Just my opinion, but I think virtually any 4 seater aircraft would be OK for the mission you listed. Some will get you there faster than others (like the M20K 252! lol), but I think any of them could work fine. I'd get the one that fits the budget and that you can get most excited about (which would mean no 172 :))
- Recommendation: Set aside a budget of about 20-30% of the plane's purchase price for potential repairs/surprises you encounter in year 1.
 
You need to consider a larger area if you really only need 2 seats...

1. Lancair 320 or 360: Fun, fast, and economical. Has 2 seats and carries some luggage.
2. An RV: They're the good standard of experimental. Several models and you should check them out.

Other than that, buy commercial to see your folks. That sounds like 5% of your mission.
 
TCABM said:
Your likely largest expense, fuel, will be entirely in your control. Other fixed expenses include hangar, insurance, database subscriptions, and any recurring taxes. As a datapoint, about the cheapest we can run our 172 all in is $5500/yr including cost of annual inspection but not repairs or upgrades. We also set aside $80/hr for an all in maintenance reserve so our variable expense is oil & gas plus $80/hr.
Click to expand...

Fuel may not be the highest expense.

100 hours per year in a 201 is about 1000 - 1100 gallons. And he might not actually fly 100 hours.

Hangar rent at my field it $550 per month, so $6600

Insurance is likely to be close to $10K.
 
FIKI would be very nice, but adds a LOT to the cost. And will limit your choices. It will mainly be found on newer airframe, which raises the price also.

I am biased, but a Mooney looks like a good fit.

My 252/Encore can carry 104 gallons of fuel (Monroe long range tank STC) my GF and I, and around 100 pounds of baggage. That is 9 hours of range. More than enough for any trip I want to take.

Turbo is higher maintenance cost, but allows getting above weather. Not really needed for eastern flying, but I plan on doing a lot of traveling when I retire in a year or two.

Bonanza would also work, but higher fuel flows.

I love the Tiger. But they are currently in short supply and somewhat expensive. I did my PPL in one. I flight planned 132 knots and 10.2 GPH, and beat both. The Sensenich prop adds almost 10 knots to cruise.
 
Was going to say Bellanca Viking but @Shepherd beat me to it. Bonanza, Cirrus SR20, RV14, Cessna 210, little slower but you can't be wrong with a 182.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
...the rest of my flying would be short vacations and golf trips round the area (< 300 nm)
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Optimize for this mission. I do <300nm (DC to NY) trips in my 140 with some frequency but it's not a 2 people plus bags plane. If your wife is coming with you, buy a Cirrus.
 
not sure I'd purchase a plane spec'd for just 4 trip a year, but it could/would grow into more. That said for XC's I'd want as much fuel as possible even if the cruise speed is slower. 2nd would be a good climb rate.
 
GeorgeC said:
Optimize for this mission. I do <300nm (DC to NY) trips in my 140 with some frequency but it's not a 2 people plus bags plane. If your wife is coming with you, buy a Cirrus.
Click to expand...

Really? I do 300+nm trips in my 140 (160 hp STC) with the wife, dog and enough baggage for an entire week on a monthly basis and still have weight and space to spare.

If OP only needs two seats, he can take out the backseats which gives him plenty of space for golf clubs.
 
RV 9
Fits your budget, 2 seats, gives you the speed you need. Insurance should be easier as it isn't a retract. Good fuel burn, you can work on it yourself, good support system, and parts (especially avionics) will be much less expensive.
 
FancyG said:
The 4x annual Iowa trip is an outlier. Fly commercial….
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I cannot disagree more, especially in today’s airline environment. A short body Mooney does that trip faster and cheaper than airline tickets for two.

Also, once a quarter, every quarter going forward is not an outlier.
 
So when I was doing my estimates for the Tiger I used ~30 gal useable instead of the 50 gal, that's my mistake.

GeorgeC I will definitely reach out when I'm in the area in the next 2 weeks! I still need to take the SFRA course and learn the airspace.

JEB I appreciate the thorough reply, I never really considered the easy resale value of the C182.

I really need to brush up on my knowledge of the Beechcraft line, but I agree the more I look at the Debonair and V-tails they are pretty comparable to the other retracts I am looking at. 12.5 gph for 172 kts is pretty good!

The 4x trip to annual is maybe an outlier, but flying commercial is a pain. We usually fly into Des Moines and then have to drive ~3 hrs to Burlington area, or Cedar Rapids through connecting flights and then drive 1.5 hrs. I could fly door to door from DCA to BRL in less time (with the appropriate plane) and it would be more fun.

I know I a lot of people have a lot of opinions on the Mooney cabin, and I have never flown one before so I'd definitely do that before anything. I am a scrawny 5' 9" and 140 lbs so I foresee it being much of an issue.

And building an RV-8 is my dream, but I don't have the room or time right now to build it, and would like to get something sooner than 1000 hrs.
 
Don’t build an RV 9. Buy one- several are on trade a plane now
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Really? I do 300+nm trips in my 140 (160 hp STC) with the wife, dog and enough baggage for an entire week on a monthly basis and still have weight and space to spare.

If OP only needs two seats, he can take out the backseats which gives him plenty of space for golf clubs.
Click to expand...

You’re talking Cherokee 140. He’s talking Cessna 140.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
The 4x trip to annual is maybe an outlier, but flying commercial is a pain. We usually fly into Des Moines and then have to drive ~3 hrs to Burlington area, or Cedar Rapids through connecting flights and then drive 1.5 hrs. I could fly door to door from DCA to BRL in less time (with the appropriate plane) and it would be more fun.
Click to expand...

I would not buy an airplane solely based on a periodic longer trip. You could fly a Cessna 150 or a Super Cub on your trip to Iowa and still be better off than flying an airline.

This isn’t a mission that demands much of an airplane in my opinion.
 
True. For a longer trip could always rent or fly commercial.
 
WDD said:
Don’t build an RV 9. Buy one- several are on trade a plane now
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That's what I did - bought an RV9A. I had a Tiger prior to that but it didn't do high altitude really well. I live in the mountain west, my homebase is well above 7000 msl. I have owned several airplanes over the years- Citabrias, Scouts, Cessna 310, C185, Super Viking, Tiger, floatplanes... for price/performance, low maintenance costs, excellent handling, inexpensive insurance, high altitude capability, the RV9 (or other RVs) are very hard to beat. Cons: ingress/egress in two seat Vans aircraft is not graceful (but the Tiger wasn't a lot better), interior is not spacious, baggage compartment is reached by leaning over the seatbacks. A previous RV9 owner on here mentioned that they are sensitive to wind on landing... I agree with this(...fairly light wing loading) but the controls are very quick and precise which mitigates the issue.

I usually plan a 150kt cruise at 7-8 gph. It will go faster if you up the rpm/fuel burn. My insurance(commercial, instrument rating) is $800 with 75k hull.
 
Couple questions on the RV-9:
  1. Does the RV-9 have enough baggage capacity to take (worst case) 2 people with two sets of golf clubs?
  2. I assume insurance would be higher for an experimental vs standard (for the same engine hp), but is that rate hike still less than going from fixed gear to complex?
  3. How does it do in IMC conditions? I've heard some struggle without AP because they are so responsive. I don't plan on flying in heavy IMC, more flying VFR ontop and breaking through layers
 
FWIW - I would love an RV9. But wife would have trouble getting in and out. And I need a smoother (heavier) platform for trips. After the last trip we did in a tiger, never again. Too bumpy for her. Likes the station wagon Skylane. So that is what we use and will eventually buy.
 
Welcome to PoA and to the greater DC-metro-land-area... Are you set on KVKX? In addition to the SFRA, you will need to go through the process of getting a PIN to enter the FRZ so you don't get shot down by whoever is responsible for shooting down slow GA aircraft when they violate such airspace. We looked at that airport as a possible home-base, but bailed on it for a couple of reasons I can't remember one of which may be that it is in Maryland. Like @GeorgeC said, there are a bunch of us (including me) in the DC area. If you are planning to store your Bonanza (when you purchase the Bonanza) in a hangar, make sure you get on a waiting list five years ago. I have been on the list at HEF since I was six months old and I still don't have my own (we do lease space in someone else's, so it worked out a bit). I did get an email about a hangar up for auction at KVKX, so maybe you bid on that and won... I'm sure the winning bid was reasonable (sarcasm applied).

Aircraft - Seriously, a Bo would be great. Rusty's Lance would be perfect, too.... every time he posts pictures of those barn doors I cry a little bit to myself because I have Le Petit Lance in the form of an 1969 Arrowe that lacks such amazing carrying ability. That being said, I couldn't be happier with le Arrowe. I haven't had any issues carrying a bag or two and golf clubs in mine. You would have to make a fuel stop for your quarterly mission-to-Iowa (sounds like some sort of movie title). But I would imagine unless you have a bladder the size of a 55 gallon drum, you would want to stop anyway. Or maybe I'm the only one that can't sit in a small GA airplane for more than three or four hours. Mooneys are great. Just ask @eman1200. And don't worry about the size - eman is 6'5" and is 230 pounds of rock solid muscle and he fits in his Mooney no problem. Please please don't buy an overpriced 172. Clapped out, high-time ones with missing logs and avionics that have been around since 1910 are still commanding crazy prices. Unless you really want a trainer that goes slower than most birds and some flying insects.

FIKI - I wouldn't sweat that. Even with FIKI I think I saw you say somewhere up there you are going mostly VFR with some layer-punching so doesn't sound like you are a hard-IFR guy anyway so if it's icing conditions, maybe don't fly. FIKI is going to just add to the cost. But you do get to say that you fly a FIKI plane if you get one, so that could be cool. I like to say FIKI. FIKI.

Insurance isn't bad on le Arrowe... I forget what I paid this year and I'm too lazy to look it up, but it wasn't bad. Mx and Annuals... not bad either. I don't think we pay much if any more for the dead simple retractable gear system.

Keep us posted when you buy the Bonanza! And seriously, I'm over at KHEF and there are others of us in the area so welcome and hit us up when you want to fly for lunch. There are a bunch of airports with good restaurants/diners right on-field.
 
Anthony LoCurto said:
GeorgeC I will definitely reach out when I'm in the area in the next 2 weeks! I still need to take the SFRA course and learn the airspace.
Click to expand...
As @Deelee said, if you're going to base at VKX (or any of the MD3), you'll need to do a bit more. I just went through the vetting process and it was pretty streamlined, 3 weeks start to finish.
 
@Deelee and @GeorgeC I am not set on VKX, but I am moving to Alexandria so it seemed like the closest option. I am planning on stopping by HEF, VKX, 2W5 and W32 once I'm out there, and I will probably get my PIN regardless of which airport I call home.

And I agree, FIKI is overkill for my mission.
 
Alexandria is nice. I'm not too far away from there. The drive to HEF isn't too bad. No worse than driving anywhere else in this area. If you want, let me know when you are coming out to HEF and maybe we can get some other locals together for a lunch run.
 
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