Worst controller ever?

<Spoiler alert>

That controller should be fired. What incompetence, followed by unacceptable attitude. The pilot declared an EMERGENCY...twice!
 
I dunno. This seems to be pretty normal to me. The only time I ever got caught “IMC” was due to smoke from a huge fire and the controllers did nothing to help but switch me from controller to controller until I got myself out of it. The last thing I needed was to be screwing with the radio and getting nothing in return. I got no vectors, they gave me the name of an airport in the direction I asked for, but they wouldn’t provide the frequency or weather for it, and I asked. They didn’t give me vectors either, but maybe they didn’t have me on radar. When I found the airport myself they terminated me and that was all the help I got out of them.

He told the controller he had the airport in sight, and was cleared for visual approach. I don’t think he made it clear at all that he was flying in and out of IMC, until after the fact. The controller wasn’t super helpful, but he did everything he was asked for.
 
That was difficult to listen to. If anything bad had happened, really difficult for that controller to explain why that behavior was appropriate.
 
If there was an inquiry post event, it would be interesting to read the reports to get more detail. The controller was not especially helpful and was in fact a distraction increasing the pilots stress level. OTOH, it sounds like the pilot had recovered from the spiral and was ultimately in benign conditions. That doesn't mean it's not still an emergency since declining vectors for an approach in favor of vectors to "get uscout of here" if one does have control, while not the clearest decision, could indicate a huge stress level.
 
Although the controller certainly wasn't very proactively helpful, the pilot certainly added to the confusion on numerous occasions. Good resolution of an emergency relies on both parties communicating well, which neither of them were doing. Understand it was likely a highly stressful event for the pilot, but still:

- The pilot says he is returning direct Kahului, then asks for and receives a heading and altitude to fly, but then when asked about the emergency, says he is in a spiral dive. So, is he in a spiral dive, or able to accept headings and altitudes? Confusing.
- After the spiral dive, the pilot seems to have recovered, is flying headings and altitudes apparently fine, isn't telling ATC of any control difficulties or anything else, and does not seem particularly "emergency"-like.
- The pilot requests the visual, reports the airport in sight, but then says there are clouds too. I agree with the controller - does he have it in sight or not? Does he want the visual or not? Existence of clouds doesn't mean he can't fly the visual.
- The pilot is also antagonistic, with statements like "take a deep breath".

I hope that the pilot called ATC afterwards and they worked out how each could handle this better in the future. I would be really interested to know more details.
 
RussR said:
Although the controller certainly wasn't very proactively helpful, the pilot certainly added to the confusion on numerous occasions. Good resolution of an emergency relies on both parties communicating well, which neither of them were doing. Understand it was likely a highly stressful event for the pilot, but still:

- The pilot says he is returning direct Kahului, then asks for and receives a heading and altitude to fly, but then when asked about the emergency, says he is in a spiral dive. So, is he in a spiral dive, or able to accept headings and altitudes? Confusing.
- After the spiral dive, the pilot seems to have recovered, is flying headings and altitudes apparently fine, isn't telling ATC of any control difficulties or anything else, and does not seem particularly "emergency"-like.
- The pilot requests the visual, reports the airport in sight, but then says there are clouds too. I agree with the controller - does he have it in sight or not? Does he want the visual or not? Existence of clouds doesn't mean he can't fly the visual.
- The pilot is also antagonistic, with statements like "take a deep breath".

I hope that the pilot called ATC afterwards and they worked out how each could handle this better in the future. I would be really interested to know more details.
Click to expand...

I’m guessing there is some ‘history’ between these two. The recording wasn’t continuous. Twice I think there was “two minutes later.” I’ll betcha those two minute gaps weren’t dead air time
 
Yeah I agree with Russ. Poor communication on the part of the pilot.
 
This seemed like one of those exchanges where I'm expecting a supervisor to jump in...not because the controller was incapable of handling the situation but because the pilot is clearly not getting what he wants from ATC.

I'm not sure the controller believed there was indeed an emergency. The controller was slow to offload work on the pilot-- directing him to a VOR rather than a initial vector, asking if he had ATIS rather than giving him the numbers, and not asking what he needed rather than conducting an investigation of why the pilot was declaring an emergency. That said, the pilot was just as cringe worthy in his communications.
 
luvflyin said:
I’m guessing there is some ‘history’ between these two. The recording wasn’t continuous. Twice I think there was “two minutes later.” I’ll betcha those two minute gaps weren’t dead air time
Click to expand...

I don't know... I'd be surprised if the Youtube channel that edited the audio and assembled the video would have left out some juicy bits of human conflict in the spirit of moving the plot along. Seems at odds with the nature of social media/Youtube.
 
RudyP said:
I don't know... I'd be surprised if the Youtube channel that edited the audio and assembled the video would have left out some juicy bits of human conflict in the spirit of moving the plot along. Seems at odds with the nature of social media/Youtube.
Click to expand...

Yeah, makes sense. I’d still like to hear the whole thing though. Do you know who and what VAS Aviation is?
 
No mechanical problem. Only light turbulence. What exactly was the emergency? Was this a VFR-only pilot who got himself in over his head? In the absence of that information, the controller's actions don't seem too bad, with the exception of the vectors after the initial emergency declaration.
 
I agree that the pilot didn't do the best job but this controller should be strung up. The guy declared an emergency. In my opinion, that means the controller MUST do everything he can to help the pilot. I don't care if he declared because he got a paper cut, that can be settled on the ground. To him it, it was an emergency and this controller didn't do enough to help. Instead he's worried about someone in an emergency maintaining 4000'. That's just him being a jerk which has NO place in an emergency.
 
To me this video represents two wrongs don't make a right. My personal opinions of it (not that anyone asked or cares but it's a message board :)):

1) Pilot asks for direct Blush and the controller denies it without a reason. I'd have included the reason.
2) Pilot declares and says turning direct the airport, when told to enter a base he says he needs vectors. Bit confusing on the pilot's behalf, should have turned and asked for vectors from the beginning but hey, he's out of control (seemingly) and scared, gets a pass.
3) Pilot says he needs vectors and the controller tries giving him direct a VOR. Huh?
4) He was IFR on a flight plan, has no mechanical issues and only report was light turbulence and IMC and got into a spiral? May indicate he probably shouldn't have filed IFR. If he flew into severe turbulence and got upset or had some sort of system failure it sure would make more sense but I wasn't there...only going by his words here. Regardless of that, he declared and should receive the best emergency assistance available.
5) Pilot request vectors for the visual but seems very confused about reporting the field in site and getting a clearance. The controller is in a dark room (wx was reported FEW030), if a pilot requests a visual and then reports the airport in sight, the controller should clear him for the vis approach, traffic permitting.
6) I would have read the pilot the weather vs asking him to get it, regardless of how he got there, he is an emergency. (This assumes that system was working at the controllers position...maybe it was down and the fact he's an emergency doesn't preclude the need for the pilot to have the information. If the system was down I would have had the tower relay it to me on the land line and I would have relayed it to the pilot.)
7) The whole exchange about the level of turbulence and what the emergency was/wasn't, I would have waited till the ground.
8) When the controller clears him for the visual he gets upset about getting an approach clearance saying it's not helping him and to give him a heading and altitude with anger, no longer scared in his voice. What's a controller to do? He offered vectors to the ILS, pilot declined saying he wants the visual. Pilot volunteers the airport in sight and then receive clearance and gets upset. Pilot doesn't seem to understand visual approaches/ATC/IFR system very well or maybe he has residual adrenalin overload brain?
9) Controller then seems to lose any amount of cool left and starts hammering him on the 3.7 vs 4 altitude...not something I would have done....ever.

Glad the pilot landed safely. What a goofy exchange...
 
I feel like the pilot started it. The controller got snippy with his "rogers", but, only after the pilot started getting snippy and telling the controller to "get me out of here". With few and scattered clouds, the pilot should be able to fly his airplane just fine.
 
One of the replies in the youtube comments says they know the pilot, he is an experienced "instructor", was on an ifr flight plan and was 10 mile over the water when this happened.

Personally I am so over snippy controllers, I lost my cool a little bit with one once with a controller with an attitude, and afterward, when I had time to think about it, I realized that getting upset was pointless, especially in the cockpit and worrying about upsetting a controller is stupid.

I've thought about this, when the controller started in on him a proper response would have been "stand by". Followed shortly there after by another vector request. I would have responded to the altitude digs that I was working on it and reminded the controller I was an emergency, if he's worried about separation he should vector the other aircraft away.

At the end of the day, this guy declared an emergency and was obviously stressed out. I'd like to think all my requests would be perfect under that pressure, but in reality they won't be. Getting upset at the controller, even if the controller is being a dick, won't help. Asking for what you need, then calmly repeating the request until you get it is the best way to handle this in my opinion.

The instruction to turn to a VOR when asked for a vector during an emergency screams that this controller needs some retraining. Looking up a vor, tuning it in, id'ing it, setting the obs all while freshly recovered from a spiral seems like a lot to ask from an emergency pilot who specifically asked for a vector.

I too think there may have been previous history between these two.
 
I had no problem with the way the controller handled the situation up until he lost his cool after the pilot started being condescending to him. The pilot may have declared an emergency but he never declared the "nature" of the emergency. In light turbulence and light precipitation doesn't really constitute an emergency. The controller wanted to know the nature of the emergency so he could give the tower that information so they could ring the crash phone. He never got it. I can also realize his confusion when the pilot said he had the airport in sight yet needed vectors to get there.

I'm sure hind sight being 20/20, the controller would have given they guy the ATIS information and wouldn't have been so snippy over 300' for the altitude assignment.
 
luvflyin said:
I’m guessing there is some ‘history’ between these two. The recording wasn’t continuous. Twice I think there was “two minutes later.” I’ll betcha those two minute gaps weren’t dead air time
Click to expand...
Local school/tour aircraft, so very possible there's history before this flight.
 
DoubleD said:
No mechanical problem. Only light turbulence. What exactly was the emergency? Was this a VFR-only pilot who got himself in over his head? In the absence of that information, the controller's actions don't seem too bad, with the exception of the vectors after the initial emergency declaration.
Click to expand...

I second this comment. He reported the nature of the emergency as "IMC, light turbulence, light rain." This is normal IFR flying. i find it hard to believe that it can become an emergency except for someone who is way out of proficiency or a VFR-only pilot. Sounds like scattered clouds are too much for him for a visual approach - but he turns down the ILS? I don't get it.

He also reported having the "beacon" in sight more than once. I've only heard that one time by someone I knew and when I asked (on the ground after we had to do SVFR in separate aircraft), he told me that's what he does to imply he is clear of clouds when he really isn't. (Imply he has the airport in sight when he can only see the beacon). So, if this guy is doing the same thing, he may have, in the past, played games with the system.

Anyway, I, too, think the controller could have been more helpful, but this pilot's behavior is consistent with someone who is not IFR-qualified flying in IFR conditions (and perhaps on an IFR flight plan) and wound up in trouble. And, rather than admit it, tried to "game" the system like he has done in the past.

If he is a competent IFR pilot like some have reported, he certainly did not behave like one.
 
PaulS said:
One of the replies in the youtube comments says they know the pilot, he is an experienced "instructor", was on an ifr flight plan and was 10 mile over the water when this happened.
Click to expand...
Not only that, but he's a hero :rolleyes::
I am the pilot’s close friend and I thought it would be prudent to give some context on this video since it seems to be very much left out...

First, the pilot who I will not name is an excellent, experienced pilot. I own an aircraft and he goes up with me often. We also work together at a local flight school. He’s a CFI/CFII/MEI and was on a training flight with a student when the event occurred.

It’s important to know that the weather in Hawaii is very unique. You can get a weather briefing and it ends up completely different once you are in the air. Hawai’i has its famous towering cumulous clouds and that’s what he most likely encountered. Weather in Hawaii develops FAST, and often doesn’t show on ADSB or ATC radar because it doesn’t always have precipitation associated with it. All resources were actively in use on the flight by way of an iPad, stratus receiver & flight service / ATC. It’s also important to note how dark the pacific ocean is at night - you can’t see a thing - complete darkness. Like being in outer space. You can’t see anything and that includes clouds.

Upon takeoff, again on an IFR flight plan at night, he encountered an extreme downdraft that violently thrust his left wing down over 50°. Immediately he countered with full right aileron in order to stabilize the aircraft. Even with full power and full opposite aileron he was not able to overcome the descending spiral that was created and declared his emergency per his training.

He was not descending in a spiral by choice and was doing everything in his power to keep himself and his student alive. He didn’t have time to talk to ATC, yet somehow - being a professional pilot - he still managed to get a few calls in to try and fix the dire situation they faced.

In terms of calling the visual approach. Hawai’i is very dark. He had just departed the airport and knew below 3000ft that he could attempt a visual approach. Knowing this and that the approach end of PHOG is notorious for incredibly violent winds, he didn’t want to jeopardize himself or his passengers life by crossing all the way over the island to intercept the approach in the event more of the same cloud buildups existed. He he had the beacon in sight and called it, but then again the clouds that you cannot see again appeared and blocked his view after being cleared for the visual. He was very clear about this with the controller. Also, the light rain and turbulence were what he experienced after the event, not during it. In terms of the attitude of the controller, I will not comment on it. I think it speaks for itself. I will say, though that I have personally filed numerous complaints about this controllers behavior in the past and I know many pilots in Hawai’i have a really hard time with him on a daily basis. Every time he comes on the radio you let out a sigh and say “oh great... here we go with this guy.” It’s not right. The majority of the controllers at HCF are excellent professionals and he does not represent them well.

The irony is that I had the EXACT same thing happen to me the day before during day IFR conditions off the coast of Lanai with the same controller. I regained control after a brief course departure and asked for an immediate descent to get out of IMC because I knew it ended about 1000 feet below me where smoother air persisted. Because I was unable to control my altitude in severe turbulence I really had no choice in the matter. I asked for lower and he actually denied it even though I explained my situation to him very very clearly. Another controller, probably a supervisor, intervened and asked if I was declaring an emergency. I told her only if that other controller continues to act that way and doesn’t help me immediately I would have to. She immediately vectored me away from terrain and allowed me lower and boom problem solved about 20 seconds later. It’s shocking that I almost had to declare simply because the attitude of the controller prevented me from getting to a place that allowed me to fly safer. Unreal.

I think it’s incredible that my friend was able to land both himself and his student safely during this event. I’m positive that in the same circumstances a less professional and less experienced pilot would have not lived through this.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Lindberg said:
Not only that, but he's a hero:
Click to expand...

That's not the account I read, but holy smokes, sounds like there was a history between these two. Also, probably not a good place to be doing night ifr in a 172, just sayin'.
 
Lindberg said:
Not only that, but he's a hero:
Click to expand...
“What was the cause of your emergency?” “Turbulence” “how bad was it?” “Mild”

does not fit your quote at all. Nobody not in the plane could understand what supposedly happened with what he said.
 
Radar Contact said:
8) When the controller clears him for the visual he gets upset about getting an approach clearance saying it's not helping him and to give him a heading and altitude with anger, no longer scared in his voice. What's a controller to do? He offered vectors to the ILS, pilot declined saying he wants the visual. Pilot volunteers the airport in sight and then receive clearance and gets upset. Pilot doesn't seem to understand visual approaches/ATC/IFR system very well or maybe he has residual adrenalin overload brain?...
Click to expand...

This is what really gets to me. He REFUSED the ILS. Wants a visual. And expects a controller who cannot see the clouds to vector him around the clouds. And some say he is a competent pilot and instructor? No way that is consistent with what I heard.
 
I'm wondering what was going on in the airplane. There could be a reasonable explanation here and we just don't know what it is. Maybe he just didn't want to get into a discussion on the matter in an emergency.

Even if the pilot was a complete and total screw-up, he declared. He should have gotten anything he asked for that was possible not a runaround.
 
Salty said:
“What was the cause of your emergency?” “Turbulence” “how bad was it?” “Mild”

does not fit your quote at all. Nobody not in the plane could understand what supposedly happened with what he said.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I was paraphrasing the buddy's comment. I probably needed scare quotes around "hero" or an emoji :rolleyes:.
 
I'm guessing there are far worse exchanges than this one so definitely wouldn't label it "Most Unhelpful and Rude..."
 
Nothing specific other than if I or another supervisor had not stepped in someone may very well have died. I've been doing this for 28 years and have seen a lot of controllers, most of them just great but occasionally you have that one. I'm sure the other controllers on here would agree with me.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Nothing specific other than if I or another supervisor had not stepped in someone may very well have died. I've been doing this for 28 years and have seen a lot of controllers, most of them just great but occasionally you have that one. I'm sure the other controllers on here would agree with me.
Click to expand...
I'm sure your list a-hole pilots isn't short either!
 
Worst controller?! Far from.. controller did nothing wrong.

If anything this is the worst pilot ever. I'd be confused if I was the controller as well. The pilot was offered the ILS, he declined it, asked for visual, declared an emergency (why?), got into a hard descent (??), said he was in a spiral dive (?? what's the controller supposed to do??), then said he had visual, then again asked for more vectors. Was he actually having an emergency or scared in turbulence? The dude was a complete mess, got behind the plane, and got frustrated with the controller because the "emergency" word didn't get him what he wanted

The safety of the flight is always on the shoulders of the PIC. "denied blush" - wooptie doo.. if I feel like I'm going to die and have a real emergency I'm staying visual (if I can) and flying the plane first, ditching the radio, squawking, and doing what I need to stay alive. I'll deal with the paperwork later

This video sounds more like these two have a history together. This isn't your typical "mayday mayday mayday" type emergency.

RussR said:
- The pilot says he is returning direct Kahului, then asks for and receives a heading and altitude to fly, but then when asked about the emergency, says he is in a spiral dive. So, is he in a spiral dive, or able to accept headings and altitudes? Confusing.
- After the spiral dive, the pilot seems to have recovered, is flying headings and altitudes apparently fine, isn't telling ATC of any control difficulties or anything else, and does not seem particularly "emergency"-like.
- The pilot requests the visual, reports the airport in sight, but then says there are clouds too. I agree with the controller - does he have it in sight or not? Does he want the visual or not? Existence of clouds doesn't mean he can't fly the visual.
- The pilot is also antagonistic, with statements like "take a deep breath".
Click to expand...
Yes, you are more eloquent than me. The pilot is a clown.

rtk11 said:
What incompetence, followed by unacceptable attitude. The pilot declared an EMERGENCY
Click to expand...
incompetence, yes. From the pilot. What did the controller do wrong? He offered an ILS, then gave vectors, then cleared the pilot for the visual when the pilot said he saw the airport. The pilot started the whole thing with the "calm down, take a deep breath thing", and I agree, the pilot's tone was antagonizing. I still don't know what the emergency was, clouds and rain with some turbulence? ATC can't help if you lose spatial orientation.. fly the plane first

Radar Contact said:
Controller then seems to lose any amount of cool left and starts hammering him on the 3.7 vs 4 altitude
Click to expand...
That was a little unnecessary, but he was, after all, not on his assigned altitude and the pilot is over there telling him to "take a deep breath" or whatever
 
Gotta say, I don’t think pilot had any clue what he was doing. And he was a bit arrogant on top of that. Only thing I saw the controller do wrong is not give vectors first. But yet again the pilot flying IFR should have at least known the VOR frequency, at Most already had it tuned in.
 
I'm curious why he didn't just do the ILS.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top