Wondering what's a good concealed carry rig ...
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BryStephens1971
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I've always carried my 1911 condition 1 and at the 2 O'clock position (appendix carry).
I've still got all my bits. I always use the safety and take some comfort from the grip safety.
Now if I carried a Glock, which I would never do because they are ugly as homemade sin, then I might switch to condition 2. IMHO carry weapons need safeties even more than duty weapons or hunting rifles.
All the supposedly trained people, cops and military, that shoot themselves or others negligently only reinforce my opinion that carry weapons need safeties. It's far too easy for a shirt tail or some other piece of clothing to get into the trigger guard and cause a discharge upon reholstering.
If your not comfortable with condition 1 then don't do it but do seek out additional training. Another thing to consider is that you may not have both hands free at the instant you need to draw, rack and shoot. In my case I will probably be shoving my daughter down behind cover and drawing simultaneously so condition 1 makes the most sense.
Also your off hand or arm could be damaged or restrained by the guy your about to shoot.
I've been carrying concealed for quite a few years now and thankfully never had the situation get so bad I needed to draw my pistol. I train regularly with friends that are ex or current military and give their advice all due consideration but in the end one must do what one feels most comfortable doing. As long as your techniques are safe and effective I see no reason to call them wrong but maybe I've given you something extra to consider.
I've still got all my bits. I always use the safety and take some comfort from the grip safety.
Now if I carried a Glock, which I would never do because they are ugly as homemade sin, then I might switch to condition 2. IMHO carry weapons need safeties even more than duty weapons or hunting rifles.
All the supposedly trained people, cops and military, that shoot themselves or others negligently only reinforce my opinion that carry weapons need safeties. It's far too easy for a shirt tail or some other piece of clothing to get into the trigger guard and cause a discharge upon reholstering.
If your not comfortable with condition 1 then don't do it but do seek out additional training. Another thing to consider is that you may not have both hands free at the instant you need to draw, rack and shoot. In my case I will probably be shoving my daughter down behind cover and drawing simultaneously so condition 1 makes the most sense.
Also your off hand or arm could be damaged or restrained by the guy your about to shoot.
I've been carrying concealed for quite a few years now and thankfully never had the situation get so bad I needed to draw my pistol. I train regularly with friends that are ex or current military and give their advice all due consideration but in the end one must do what one feels most comfortable doing. As long as your techniques are safe and effective I see no reason to call them wrong but maybe I've given you something extra to consider.
mkosmo
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When I CC my 1911, I've always found 4 o'clock or so to be the most comfortable and concealed for me. It's amazing how well that thing hides, but that's the advantage of it being thin despite long.
Old Fart
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Checkout_my_Six
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NOpe.....the bullet is in the front pocket.Most of you should probably just carry in 'Condition 4' which I think is the gun holstered and the magazine in you pants pocket..
I always get a giggle out of CCW holders talking in military language, kinda like when EMT's start talking like Doc's hahaha
Edit: My wife and I took some defensive firearm classes it is a real eye opener to get put in scenarios. No way can you rack a slide and if you carry with an ankle holster mine as well just leave the firearm at home.
Edit: My wife and I took some defensive firearm classes it is a real eye opener to get put in scenarios. No way can you rack a slide and if you carry with an ankle holster mine as well just leave the firearm at home.
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Anthony
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Anthony
Are you referring to Condition 1, Condition 2 etc? If so, that is standard nomenclature for descrbing arms readiness whether miltiary, law enforcement, or civilian.
Let me guess. You're not a 2A advocate?
I'm sorry if I offended you
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Anthony
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Anthony
Did I say I was "offended"? You did not offend me at all, just pointing out that is common description, and not just military. It helps because you don't have to use several sentences of description when explaining. It's all good!
Tally Ho.
A verified unloaded gun is the safest, but if you're going to carry one ready to fire, it really behooves you to know what your gun is and how it works. A modern revolver is different than one of the old peacemaker revolvers than a Colt 1911 (or those autos that mimic it) than a Glock or my Sigs. If I carried a colt, I'd have it in condition 1 as well. With my SA/DA sig, the round is chambered but the hammer is decocked. The presence of the internal safety in the Sig and the lack of one on the Colt for example or the transfer bar in the modern revolver makes a difference as to what's the sanest way to carry.
Still you ALWAYS want to guard the trigger no matter what.
A verified unloaded gun is the safest, but if you're going to carry one ready to fire, it really behooves you to know what your gun is and how it works. A modern revolver is different than one of the old peacemaker revolvers than a Colt 1911 (or those autos that mimic it) than a Glock or my Sigs. If I carried a colt, I'd have it in condition 1 as well. With my SA/DA sig, the round is chambered but the hammer is decocked. The presence of the internal safety in the Sig and the lack of one on the Colt for example or the transfer bar in the modern revolver makes a difference as to what's the sanest way to carry.
Still you ALWAYS want to guard the trigger no matter what.
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Did I say I was "offended"? You did not offend me at all, just pointing out that is common description, and not just military. It helps because you don't have to use several sentences of description when explaining. It's all good!
I don't think that nomenclature is common at all. The only place I have ever heard it used is in tactical classes taught by military instructors geared to civilians. I have heard the color codeing nomenclature used very frequently in civilian environments. That said I'm by no means a top authority on it and my circles are fairly small I imagine someone who spends time at public ranges would have much more exposure to the jargon than I. But to be fair to myself many times when I have heard people talking about conditions they are not properly using the definitions which leads me to believe they are simply parroting terminology they don't fully understand.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Numbered conditions referring to the readiness state of a pistol have been used for many years. I remember gun magazines in the 80s referring to Condtion 1 or 3 and so forth.
rtk11
Pattern Altitude
Depends on scenario, but I agree with you. The ankle holster, in my opinion, is for backup to the primary weapon. It's too hard to reach and you telegraph your intentions to retrieve it.
Defensive firearms classes and/or scenario based training are great. I think everyone who has a firearm should take such a class. I've taken many... and I always learn something from each time I take the class.
denverpilot
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All of our local law enforcement and retired and active LE trainers (the most common pro trainers for civilians are LE) use the "Condition" nomenclature here and have for a couple of decades.
Most also tend toward simpler terms when discussing defensive uses. The gun is either "ready to fire" or "ready to be thrown like a brick because it's useless as a gun".
Multiple examples of videos of clean shoots where the good guy or gal didn't have any time to be racking a slide, had to draw quickly after pretending not to be armed, etc. No LE person or trainer that I know recommends anyone carry in a condition that requires a rack/administrative load. They usually call that "a dumb way to die".
They do recommend if someone isn't comfortable with a round chambered in a semi-auto that they should look into carrying revolvers instead, but obviously they also caution about needing to train for reloads on the chosen tech platform, whatever makes the person the most comfortable.
Lead pro instructor at my club has carried a Glock for 30+ years daily, and hasn't shot himself. He had no military or civilian training (to start his career in personal protection duty!) and freely admits it's one of the reasons he is a trainer today. He doesn't want anyone else having to figure everything out on their own like he was forced to.
Negligent firing of the firearm is 100% on the operator, not the pistol, unless there was a definitive mechanical malfunction. Not a Glock problem.
A training problem. And a negligence/complacency problem.
We have those in aviation, too.
Various holster styles can make the operator's job harder, as can choice of clothing, etc.
Get in a hurry with any pistol when holstering or unholstering and neglect what you've been taught, and you're going to do something stupid.
Again, similar to aviation.
Personally I prefer DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a thumb on top of the hammer when holstering so I can feel if the trigger is catching on something because the hammer will start to rise. Still a problem for a fast reholster though. There's very few scenarios where a reholster needs to be fast. Just slow down and pay attention.
"Cover garments" are often the reason for re-holstering negligent discharges and are a pretty good example of where open carry in a solid outside the waistband retention holster, is a lot smarter gun handling than most of the holster and handling gyrations caused by society forcing concealed carry.
Gerhardt
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Gerhardt
Aye, there's the rub. There are just too many people who like to finger their guns. There's probably not a person here who doesn't live in or near a town where a cop hasn't let one fly because he was playing with it. When I was in high school it was Officer Larry Murrell. Then he was so scared that he reported a sniper. Had the other city officers, county sheriff's office and state patrol investigating. The genius didn't think it through clearly, and it wasn't long before they figured out the path of the bullett wasn't from a sniper. Don't ask me how, but several years later he was named chief. That's a small town for you.
Really, to each his own. Most of my friends keep one in the pipe and chide me for not doing the same.
All of our local law enforcement and retired and active LE trainers (the most common pro trainers for civilians are LE) use the "Condition" nomenclature here and have for a couple of decades.
Most also tend toward simpler terms when discussing defensive uses. The gun is either "ready to fire" or "ready to be thrown like a brick because it's useless as a gun".
Multiple examples of videos of clean shoots where the good guy or gal didn't have any time to be racking a slide, had to draw quickly after pretending not to be armed, etc. No LE person or trainer that I know recommends anyone carry in a condition that requires a rack/administrative load. They usually call that "a dumb way to die".
They do recommend if someone isn't comfortable with a round chambered in a semi-auto that they should look into carrying revolvers instead, but obviously they also caution about needing to train for reloads on the chosen tech platform, whatever makes the person the most comfortable.
Lead pro instructor at my club has carried a Glock for 30+ years daily, and hasn't shot himself. He had no military or civilian training (to start his career in personal protection duty!) and freely admits it's one of the reasons he is a trainer today. He doesn't want anyone else having to figure everything out on their own like he was forced to.
Negligent firing of the firearm is 100% on the operator, not the pistol, unless there was a definitive mechanical malfunction. Not a Glock problem.
A training problem. And a negligence/complacency problem.
We have those in aviation, too.
Various holster styles can make the operator's job harder, as can choice of clothing, etc.
Get in a hurry with any pistol when holstering or unholstering and neglect what you've been taught, and you're going to do something stupid.
Again, similar to aviation.
Personally I prefer DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a thumb on top of the hammer when holstering so I can feel if the trigger is catching on something because the hammer will start to rise. Still a problem for a fast reholster though. There's very few scenarios where a reholster needs to be fast. Just slow down and pay attention.
"Cover garments" are often the reason for re-holstering negligent discharges and are a pretty good example of where open carry in a solid outside the waistband retention holster, is a lot smarter gun handling than most of the holster and handling gyrations caused by society forcing concealed carry.
Here is an example of what your saying about Glock due to a worn leather holster.
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/f...her-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/
I'm a huge Glock fan they were all my wife and I carried pre kids. However we both carry condition 1 so we moved to colt defenders because the safety is identical to the full size 1911s.
Checkout_my_Six
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Well....I guess that wouldn't have happened with a .......#3.
That holster never completely covered the trigger in the first place.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Great link - thanks!
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
Would someone mind posting a link or explaining what condition 1,2,3, mean?
I'm not familiar with any of it. I take it it means either chambered, non-chambered, cocked, not cocked ....
An old habit I have is resting the hammer on an empty cylinder hole on a revolver with the old style firing pin. On the Ruger's with the transfer bar you don't have to worry about this.
I'm not familiar with any of it. I take it it means either chambered, non-chambered, cocked, not cocked ....
An old habit I have is resting the hammer on an empty cylinder hole on a revolver with the old style firing pin. On the Ruger's with the transfer bar you don't have to worry about this.
Clark1961
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Jim Rosenow
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Just curious...have you actually fired a LC9s Pro, Ed? The trigger pull weight and pull distance of mine are almost identical to my old Colt Cobra fired single action. Trigger is neither short nor light. I haven't found it to be a concern (for me myself, personally...everyone else's mileage may, and should, vary). I usually carry mine in a cloth inside-the-belt holster which protects the entire weapon.
The deciding factor for me between the 's' and 's Pro' was the very fact it has neither safety. If I'm clumsy and drop the mag out, at least the round in the chamber will still go off. In the heat of a possible confrontation I don't need to worry if the safety is on. I suppose, thus, the Pro designation.
I continued carrying a wheel gun concealed long after it wasn't cool, as they always, always go bang when the trigger is pulled. With my LC9s Pro I'm pretty confident of that also.
Not being argumentative, just another point of view.
Jim
denverpilot
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Have seen that guy's photos before. It's a pretty old article. My initial reaction the first time I saw it remains the same today: That wasn't a proper holster for what he was using it for.
I'm in total agreement that I would want a secondary safety on a pistol carried in that garbage he's wearing.
Belt slide made from cheap leather is always going to collapse and not work properly very quickly. Good quality reinforced leather is not cheap. Leather/Kydex combos and straight Kydex for me, unless I'm just walking in the woods and have a new pistol I haven't gotten the proper holster for yet. (And the pistol would have to come out of it when transitioning to being seated.)
Maintaining your holster/gear and watching for wear and weakness in reinforcement is part of the process. Like many who've shot for a long time, I've got piles of the things.
(Even have a few still in wrappers that need some time spent with them to see if they really do what they're supposed to -- which is done with an unloaded or at least non-chambered pistol in them.)
I won't even give away the few belt slides I own. I'm too cheap to throw them out, but they don't get used unless it's just to take a walk in the woods with a pistol I haven't purchased a proper holster for, or it hasn't arrived yet... And I won't give them to anyone who doesn't know better than to only use them as a last resort.
There's lots to think about when choosing a holster or having one custom made by a proper leather holster maker.
My range allows holster draw after qualification by a range safety officer and they ban cross-draw, SOB, appendix, inside the waistband, and shoulder rigs completely. The RSO retains the right to tell you "no" for a cheap collapsing leather OWB also.
They prefer a Kydex or Kydex/leather combo, OWB, strong side only, and will give any cheap leather the hairy eyeball it deserves.
Here's another point many non-shooters may not realize but should be said in any discussion about holsters and bad ones. There's damn near zero reason to ever unholster a firearm. Reholstering also therefore is wholly unnecessary.
(If you drew it to shoot, just leave it out and put it down after the cops arrive or probably before, if you don't want to get shot yourself. Reholster when the adrenaline and shock wears down or remove the holster and reholster it in a safe direction OFF body.)
I've had a particular series of habits now for a long time and they include simply leaving loaded firearms in their holsters. Remove the whole rig and lock it up properly as a unit.
Most NDs happen when you're screwing around with the pistol unloading it or loading it. Why do it at all? Pop your belt loose and remove or drop trou and remove as a unit.
You can't fire the thing if you can't get your booger hook into the trigger guard. In a good holster, it's not ever going to "go off" even if you drop the entire rig from belt height onto a hard floor. (Exception here, would be a very old revolver without a transfer bar -- say cowboy action stuff, and that's handled by never loading a round under the hammer, ever.)
Unholstering and manipulating the pistol daily, especially at bedtime when the sandman is calling, is a very bad habit to get into, IMHO. YMMV.
The less you jack with it, the less accidents and negligence can occur.
Obviously there's also the topic of proper security of the holster and pistol unit when not on your body, but that's a completely different topic altogether.
There's also quite a bit to be said for having a specific safe place to administratively unload firearms at home, for things like maintenance and cleaning, at specific awake and alert and focused times, and again IMHO, standing next to your bed at night is not the place to be doing that.
Anyway. Mr. Collapsed Cheap Leather's self-induced problems will not be being repeated at my house or on my belt. One does have to think very seriously about holsters and not just buy the $35 garbage on Amazon.
Ask an LE friend sometime to try to collapse one of their duty belt holsters, even in leather. I bet you won't find many that will collapse much, even squeezing with both hands. You also won't find many (if any) that don't have some form of pistol retention beyond simple friction.
Right now I'm pretty impressed with the offerings from CompTac for my uses. SHTF Gear are also adequate but not as well built. I'm intrigued by the N8 Tacticals but haven't tried one. Have a couple of Italian made leather holsters that are so tight you can hear the metal fart when inserting the pistol and they actually need some work to soften them up, without overdoing it, and they'll have to be monitored for condition. They all do, of course, but I worry less about the Kydex and Kydex/Leather combos than the leather only.
I'm a bit too cheap to have custom leather work done but considering it for the big Sigs. Dropping over $100 on custom leather and usually closer to $200 isn't happening unless the pistol is a favorite that will never ever be sold.
Doggtyred
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Checkout_my_Six
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So I'm no weapons expert .....when was the last time someone was not able to defend themselves because they were too slow on the draw and had to rack before shooting?
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If someone is pointing a weapon at you, you need to be able to shoot with little more than pulling the trigger or you're going to likely lose. In situations where the gun isn't already pointed at you by the bad buy, perhaps you have time.
With small exception there's no problem with carry loaded weapons. The weapon will not fire without a pull of the trigger when carried right (as I pointed out it behooves you to understand how your gun works, some you want to carry hammer back, some you don't). A proper holster and training on how to draw it and you're not going to have an unintentional discharge.
Good luck ever finding reports on them stories or ones where a firearm saved a life in the main media. I'm baseing everything off what I have been told and taught by military and law enforcement instructors.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
A little off topic, but here's a scenario we performed at the police academy...
You are drawn down on a subject with a gun in his or her hand. We used DA revolvers at the time, and cocking them was allowed for this scenario.
The subject would rapidly raise his gun and fire. It was very educational - even single action and knowing it was coming, usually the two clicks were virtually simultaneous. Try the above exercise with toy or inactivated guns and you can confirm this.
We tend to think we can react to a stimulus instantaneously, but there is really quite a lag between intention and action.
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Bob Noel
mythbusters did a similar scenario a few seasons ago (but I don't remember the specifics).
nddons
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When not at work I carry either my Sig 1911 in a custom leather holster or a Glock 43 in a blackhawk pocket holster. Also carry the glock 43 at work as a backup.
Glock 43 with Taran Tactical +2 extension in a blackhawk pocket holster.
How do you like the 43? Does it feel noticeably thinner than double stacks like my 27?
nddons
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I had a Ruger SP101 that I really liked. Unfortunately, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. 38 Specials weren't bad, but .357s weren't fun at all, and made my hand tingle.
So I replaced it with my Glock 27.
nddons
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EdFred
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It appears in Maryland you can only carry concealed in the privacy of your own home.
nddons
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Checkout_my_Six
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Negatory....it just requires a lil bit more shucking and jiving with a state permit (neighboring states need not apply - residence only).
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Negatory....it just requires a lil bit more shucking and jiving with a state permit (neighboring states need not apply - residence only).
No restriction to residents. You just need a valid business reason.
denverpilot
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Most instructors can point to numerous scenarios. There's also quite a collection of video surveillance camera footage of various events on YouTube, some worth watching, others crap.
It's becoming more prevalent now that the normally quiet firearms community got attacked by all the politicians... Again... Over already illegal stuff they didn't do, nor condone.
There's even a few dedicated websites that collect them all in one place. Not like a few years ago when such stories were not even written by the press or not distributed widely.
Of course we still get every little detail in the news reports about the whackos down to when they had their first solid food, and virtually nothing about the folks who saved their own or other's lives, but I chalk that up to this.
The most common two phrases in those stories are, "Authorities are investigating but will likely not press charges", and "[insert citizen's name here] said s/he didn't want to kill anyone but s/he did what s/he had to do."
It's kinda boring for the "news" except during times of false drama about guns and traitorous acts toward gun owners from politicians. And even then it sells less seats to the ringside at the circus (TV ads) than the monkey squawking of anti-gunners.
So, it takes about five of the successful self defense articles to even register in the retinas of TV viewers to every one politician suckling on Bloomberg's nipples.
Checkout_my_Six
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yup, you have to have a "need"....like carrying cash.....for your bidness.
a bidness....LLC....and demonstration of cash transactions over a few months will do the trick.