Withdraw Medical Application?

N

NoAppForMe

Guest
I have heard that once you give the MedXpress confirmation number to the AME's office and they access the application, it can no longer be withdrawn. The only choices are issuance, denial, and deferral.

Is there anything from the FAA that says this?
 
NoAppForMe said:
I have heard that once you give the MedXpress confirmation number to the AME's office and they access the application, it can no longer be withdrawn. The only choices are issuance, denial, and deferral.

Is there anything from the FAA that says this?
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Ask your AME. There are many things between the AME and the FAA that we don't get to see.
But as AMEs have indicated this is true, I'd tend to believe them.
BTW, I assume some action was taken, not just "access"; the AME can actually correct some stuff before it continues in the workflow to the FAA.
If you've made an error, or omission, get in touch with your AME immediately.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Ask your AME. There are many things between the AME and the FAA that we don't get to see.
But as AMEs have indicated this is true, I'd tend to believe them.
BTW, I assume some action was taken, not just "access"; the AME can actually correct some stuff before it continues in the workflow to the FAA.
If you've made an error, or omission, get in touch with your AME immediately.
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It depends on whether or not the AME office used the 12 digit code to veiw it. If they have not, it wil self expunge in 60 days. MOST offices don't open it until you appear.

My own practice is I never want the 12 digit #. I want to se the "completed application" which is obtained at the "completed application" button. That's actaully the alirman's copy, but it is NOT LIVE. THen we have the option to just talk abou this options If we never open with the 12 digit #, no application ever occurred and the medxpress expunges in 60 days.
 
bbchien said:
It depends on whether or not the AME office used the 12 digit code to view it. If they have not, it wil self expunge in 60 days. MOST offices don't open it until you appear.

My own practice is I never want the 12 digit #. I want to se the "completed application" which is obtained at the "completed application" button. That's actaully the alirman's copy, but it is NOT LIVE. THen we have the option to just talk abou this options If we never open with the 12 digit #, no application ever occurred and the medxpress expunges in 60 days.
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Thank you. I appreciate your practice of advance review. And I already know what both you and @Kenny Phillips said about the way it happens.

But my question was whether there is anything in writing from the FAA saying that once the AME accesses the MedXpress application using the 12-digit confirmation number, the only choices are issuance, denial, or deferral. Preferably something in the AME Guide or the MedXpress instructions. I looked at both but I could have missed it.
 
It's not medexpress, but the transfer to the AMCS that starts it, but the result is the same.
He's only got tour buttons to chose:
Issued, Deferred, Denied, and Applicant refusal/Exam not complete.

The last one requires an immediate call to Joklahoma City, and unless there's some transient temporary issue, it's going to be a denial I suspect.
 
also be careful as I hear that receptionist or the assistants may access the file for the doctor before he sees you. . So your chance to turn away before seeing the doctor is already gone before you have even met. As Dr Chien just said above - its best to hold the 12 digit number back until you actually am ready and want the process to begin.
 
NoAppForMe said:
Thank you. I appreciate your practice of advance review. And I already know what both you and @Kenny Phillips said about the way it happens.

But my question was whether there is anything in writing from the FAA saying that once the AME accesses the MedXpress application using the 12-digit confirmation number, the only choices are issuance, denial, or deferral. Preferably something in the AME Guide or the MedXpress instructions. I looked at both but I could have missed it.
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It will not be in there. it's part of the MedXpress software system. Dr Fowler and I have both told you "how it is".

Don't keep looking for an answer you can't get. You won't find it.
 
bbchien said:
It will not be in there. it's part of the MedXpress software system. Dr Fowler and I have both told you "how it is".

Don't keep looking for an answer you can't get. You won't find it.
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yea ... what Dr. Chen said! lol
 
Wow. "Is is because it is and that the way it is and will always be. Don't ask why or look for a reason." Reminds me of a few cases I've had where I was told in no uncertain terms, "that's the way it works."

Actually, I though that last question - was it the same before MedXpress? - was a really good one. Was it?
 
The application then was live on signature and was done in the waiting room. The triplicate paper form was serialized and we were personally accountable for them. Uncompleted forms were turned into FAA , US. Mail, and a denial was issued.

The electronic is considered signed when the 12 digit confirmation code is used. Same deal from that moment forth. We cannot coach (dismissible offense) but I can decline to use the 12 digit code, upon seeing the Airman’s copy.
 
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bbchien said:
The application then was live on signature and was done in the waiting room. The triplicate paper form was serialized and we were personally accountable for them. Uncompleted forms were turned into FAA , US. Mail, and a denial was issued.

The electronic is considered signed when the 12 digit confirmation code is used. Same deal from that moment forth. We cannot coach (dismissible offense) but I can decline to use the 12 digit code, upon seeing the Airman’s copy.
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Do I remember rightly that the FAA will not even see the electronic form unless the confirmation code is used by the AME?
 
Palmpilot said:
Do I remember rightly that the FAA will not even see the electronic form unless the confirmation code is used by the AME?
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I think that's correct. The FAA knows the exam is "live" when the AME uses the confirmation code, but I'm not sure the data is visible to the FAA until the AME hits one of those buttons at the end of the exam. Of course, the AME has to do that or account for it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think that's correct. The FAA knows the exam is "live" when the AME uses the confirmation code, but I'm not sure the data is visible to the FAA until the AME hits one of those buttons at the end of the exam. Of course, the AME has to do that or account for it.
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There's also the fact that the MedXpress entry will, in Bruce's words, "self expunge in 60 days" if the AME office does not use the 12-digit code from the printout.
 
Palmpilot said:
There's also the fact that the MedXpress entry will, in Bruce's words, "self expunge in 60 days" if the AME office does not use the 12-digit code from the printout.
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The substantive content you placed in the application is designed to disappear a number of ways. Cancellation before submission. Expiration it not accessed by the AME 60 days. Even if accessed and used, MedXpress doesn't populate a new application with any of the medical answers you gave previously. Whether that qualifies as an expungement - which can mean different things - is probably a matter of opinion, absent a verifiable system audit.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
The substantive content you placed in the application is designed to disappear a number of ways. Cancellation before submission. Expiration it not accessed by the AME 60 days. Even if accessed and used, MedXpress doesn't populate a new application with any of the medical answers you gave previously. Whether that qualifies as an expungement - which can mean different things - is probably a matter of opinion, absent a verifiable system audit.
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Big Brother is alive and well.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Big Brother is alive and well.
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So is paranoia.

It can be difficult to know which fears are justified and which aren't. Sometimes the best we can do is rely on those who have the most experience with the system, such as Doctors Chien and Fowler.
 
Palmpilot said:
So is paranoia.

It can be difficult to know which fears are justified and which aren't. Sometimes the best we can do is rely on those who have the most experience with the system, such as Doctors Chien and Fowler.
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To which fears are you referring?

But since they haven’t specifically mentioned it, let’s ask…
@bbchien , @lbfjrmd , does the data entered into MedExpress disappear into the ether where no one can access it?
 
MauleSkinner said:
To which fears are you referring?

But since they haven’t specifically mentioned it, let’s ask…
@bbchien , @lbfjrmd , does the data entered into MedExpress disappear into the ether where no one can access it?
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How many times does it need to be said? Dr. Chien already told us that it "self expunges in 60 days." Do you think that doesn't answer the question, and if so, what makes you think that?
 
Palmpilot said:
How many times does it need to be said? Dr. Chien already told us that it "self expunges in 60 days." Do you think that doesn't answer the question, and if so, what makes you think that?
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While the definition of “Expunge” means something ceases to exist, that doesn’t seem to be what actually happens when something is expunged. Usually it just means it’s not accessible in a specific way.
 
MauleSkinner said:
While the definition of “Expunge” means something ceases to exist, that doesn’t seem to be what actually happens when something is expunged. Usually it just means it’s not accessible in a specific way.
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That's correct. If one looks at state criminal expungements, one often finds situations in which the record can be accessed. It's one of the things whuch I think will ultimately be the determining factor when the courts finally address the issue of state expunction on federal privileges.

@Palmpilot, it will be interesting what Fowler or Chien say. They may, but I would not ordinarily expect either of them to know what is going on under the hood of the MedXpress system any more than the user of any software. Are you enough of a programmer/tech geek to explain how your EFB or word processing software works? What data they collect? Where it goes? I was known in my office for being able to program new functionality into MS-Word, changing things people said couldn't be changed. But all that was being a sophisticated end user, still using the tools they gave us. I have no idea what Microsoft did below the surface level I worked in.
 
MauleSkinner said:
While the definition of “Expunge” means something ceases to exist, that doesn’t seem to be what actually happens when something is expunged. Usually it just means it’s not accessible in a specific way.
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From the FAA’s publication FAA MedXpress Program for Pilots

“After submitting the electronic application form, you have 60 days in which to schedule and take a physical examination with your AME.

After 60 days, the application is deleted.”

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/medxpress.pdf

That’s fairly clear to me however I suppose you see if there was an RFP let for MedXpress to he developed and peruse that docket for any technical performance requirements. That would not necessarily insure the delivered system actually conforms to that requirement thought.
 
I'm quite willing to believe that the application is deleted after 60 days as they say. However, every well managed computer system is backed up regularly, so it's highly likely the undeleted application is present on one or more of those backups. Certainly it's possible to retrive a copy of the application from that backup, but whether there's any procedure or policy for the FAA to access and use that undeleted application is another matter. Usually the larger an organization is, the more hassle it is to retrieve anything from a backup.

But though the application may be present on the backup, once it's deleted they may not have any indication in the live files that it ever existed, so they wouldn't even know to look. Methinks it would have to be a pretty big high profile case for them to ever dig that deep.
 
Dana said:
I'm quite willing to believe that the application is deleted after 60 days as they say. However, every well managed computer system is backed up regularly, so it's highly likely the undeleted application is present on one or more of those backups. Certainly it's possible to retrive a copy of the application from that backup, but whether there's any procedure or policy for the FAA to access and use that undeleted application is another matter. Usually the larger an organization is, the more hassle it is to retrieve anything from a backup.

But though the application may be present on the backup, once it's deleted they may not have any indication in the live files that it ever existed, so they wouldn't even know to look. Methinks it would have to be a pretty big high profile case for them to ever dig that deep.
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There are many types of backups, and all backups have retention cycles. It would be trivial to design the system so backups of your application are gone after 60 days, or some other interval.
 
TCABM said:
From the FAA’s publication FAA MedXpress Program for Pilots

“After submitting the electronic application form, you have 60 days in which to schedule and take a physical examination with your AME.

After 60 days, the application is deleted.”

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/medxpress.pdf

That’s fairly clear to me however I suppose you see if there was an RFP let for MedXpress to he developed and peruse that docket for any technical performance requirements. That would not necessarily insure the delivered system actually conforms to that requirement thought.
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It is not unheard of for the government to keep records that were supposed to be deleted; this happened with NICS, and I don't know if it's been "fixed".
 
Lindberg said:
There are many types of backups, and all backups have retention cycles. It would be trivial to design the system so backups of your application are gone after 60 days, or some other interval.
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Absolutely. But sometimes the retention cycle, especially for things like year-end backups, is many years or "permanent".
 
Dana said:
Absolutely. But sometimes the retention cycle, especially for things like year-end backups, is many years or "permanent".
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If you're backing up everything on the same retention cycle, you're doing it wrong. And something that's intentionally transient never needs to touch off-line or even near-line backup. Built-in resiliency and redundancy is sufficient.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It is not unheard of for the government to keep records that were supposed to be deleted; this happened with NICS, and I don't know if it's been "fixed".
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Ok. Sounds like an operation that doesn’t require a medical is an option for you then.
 
TCABM said:
Ok. Sounds like an operation that doesn’t require a medical is an option for you then.
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That's a rather confusing reply. I have no issues with a medical, and have even worked for the government for several years. Just sayin' that once any information is given to the government, one would be best served by assuming it's forever.
 
Officially: (Citation here)

How FAA MedXPress Retains Information
FAA MedXPress retains information for completed exams as required by law. Applications for medical certification that are collected by FAA MedXPress are deleted after 60 days under the following circumstances:

  • The applicant initiates an application for medical certification but does not submit a completed form.
  • The applicant submits a completed application form but does not undergo a physical exam by a designated AME.
  • The submitted exam is not imported into AMCS by a designated AME.
System of Records
FAA MedXPress is a system of records subject to the Privacy Act, because it is routinely searched by a unique identifier. This system is covered by System of Records Notice: DOT/FAA 847 - Aviation Records on Individuals.
 
Ahhh…. The recent posts remind me so much of the Red Board. When we would argue if they one eyed cat was coming in or going out.
 
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