Wing drops during power on stalls

[intercept_flight]

I am a student pilot, and when I perform power on stalls in SR-20

1. I slow to 70 knots (Takeoff speed)
   
   
2. Flaps 50%
   
   
3. Add full power
   
   
4. Apply rudder to stay on heading
   
   
5. Increase angle of attack till a stall happens
   
   
6. The nose eventually drops, and as it does, the plane banks to the right, which kind of freaks me out. My instructor says don't apply aileron to level the wings till you recover from the stall. That is easier to say than do as my immediate action is to push the yoke to the left.
   

Any thoughts on this, please?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Any thoughts on this, please?

Use the rudder to pick up the wing.
Practice.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Instead of your heading indicator, use a cloud as a reference. Much easier to see yaw as it occurs.

 

[intercept_flight]

Instead of your heading indicator, use a cloud as a reference. Much easier to see yaw as it occurs.

actually its a wing bank that happens, not a yaw. Maybe I didn't explain it correctly, or something I am missing in your answer?

 

[geezer]

When the right wing drops, apply left rudder to level the wings. Be quick, but gentle, do not over do it, and you can hold wings level for thousands of feet altitude loss. Since you had right rudder to counter the engine torque, you may just reduce that right rudder input. The wing bank is the result of yaw reducing the lift of the right wing.

In a Cessna 172, I have done power on and off full deflection stalls for 5,000 feet.

 

[Fearless Tower]

actually its a wing bank that happens, not a yaw. Maybe I didn't explain it correctly, or something I am missing in your answer?

He’s referring to your comment about using rudder to maintain heading when going into the stall. Don’t.

I’ve honestly never looked at/payed any attention to my heading indicator during stall practice.

Rudder should be used to keep the ball centered.

 

[danhagan]

I am a student pilot, and when I perform power on stalls in SR-20

1. The nose eventually drops, and as it does, the plane banks to the right, which kind of freaks me out. My instructor says don't apply aileron to level the wings till you recover from the stall. That is easier to say than do as my immediate action is to push the yoke to the left.

Any thoughts on this, please?

I had the same issue as a student. CFI had me do uncoordinated stalls for over an hour with him initially controlling the yolk and burning it in my brain to use my feet to level that wing ... the final part of that hour was me forcing the "error" ... later got to go and do spins which took the mystery out of the entire procedure.

I now fly an RV7A and I have to warn CFIs that if they setup the power on stall incorrectly, we might loop or hammer head as the RV climbs like a scald cat ...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

actually its a wing bank that happens, not a yaw

Use the rudder to keep the wings level after the stall, the heading will take care of itself.

 

[Dave Theisen]

actually its a wing bank that happens, not a yaw. Maybe I didn't explain it correctly, or something I am missing in your answer?

Yaw is is why the wing drops. It causes one wing to stall before the other. That’s why you need to use rudder to straighten you out instead of aileron to try to pick up the wing.

 

[luvflyin]

I am a student pilot, and when I perform power on stalls in SR-20

1. I slow to 70 knots (Takeoff speed)
   
   
2. Flaps 50%
   
   
3. Add full power
   
   
4. Apply rudder to stay on heading
   
   
5. Increase angle of attack till a stall happens
   
   
6. The nose eventually drops, and as it does, the plane banks to the right, which kind of freaks me out. My instructor says don't apply aileron to level the wings till you recover from the stall. That is easier to say than do as my immediate action is to push the yoke to the left.

Any thoughts on this, please?

Keep practicing until neutralizing aileron and using rudder instead of aileron to level the wing becomes instinct. It may save your life someday.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hard to tell without being there. Does it drop when your instructor demonstrates it? If not, as others said, it's your rudder work. All that right rudder you need when the nose is high and power is full needs to be neutralized at the point of the stall. It's all about looking out the window and seeing what is going on.

 

[exncsurfer]

Yaw is is why the wing drops. It causes one wing to stall before the other. That’s why you need to use rudder to straighten you out instead of aileron to try to pick up the wing.

Reminds me what my instructor would say, 'step on the sky'. He also demonstrated and had me do falling leaf stalls to get the rudder working for me.

 

[brcase]

I am a student pilot, and when I perform power on stalls in SR-20

1. I slow to 70 knots (Takeoff speed)
   
   
2. Flaps 50%
   
   
3. Add full power
   
   
4. Apply rudder to stay on heading
   
   
5. Increase angle of attack till a stall happens
   
   
6. The nose eventually drops, and as it does, the plane banks to the right, which kind of freaks me out. My instructor says don't apply aileron to level the wings till you recover from the stall. That is easier to say than do as my immediate action is to push the yoke to the left.

Any thoughts on this, please?

This is pretty much the point of having you demonstrate the stall. It is the one maneuver where the controls do exactly the opposite of what you expect. The nose starts going down, pulling back on the stick just makes it go down more. The wing drops, adding opposite aileron makes it drop even more. Rudder continues to work properly which is why you stop the rotation with the rudder. Elevator forward breaks the stall and then all the controls work as expected.

This is how stalls then spins occur, mostly because the pilot is not expecting it. If you are expecting it and recognize it as a stall, you have been trained, from often about the 4th lesson, that to recover from a stall you put the nose down, But if you don't recognize it is a stall, you will do exactly the opposite and make things worse.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Jr Hampton]

" All that right rudder you need when the nose is high and power is full needs to be neutralized at the point of the stall. "

Took me the longest time to figure this out.

 

[Dan Thomas]

" All that right rudder you need when the nose is high and power is full needs to be neutralized at the point of the stall. "

Took me the longest time to figure this out.

One can't generalize. it all depends on the airplane. You use whatever rudder, in whatever quantity, it takes to stop the drop. In a 172 a full-power stall will drop the left wing even if the ball is centered, and there will be lots of right rudder in. If you neutralize the rudder at the wing drop, you'll get your spin to the left. One has to use MORE rudder to pick up that wing.

 

[luvflyin]

Yup. Wa

This is pretty much the point of having you demonstrate the stall. It is the one maneuver where the controls do exactly the opposite of what you expect. The nose starts going down, pulling back on the stick just makes it go down more. The wing drops, adding opposite aileron makes it drop even more. Rudder continues to work properly which is why you stop the rotation with the rudder. Elevator forward breaks the stall and then all the controls work as expected.

This is how stalls then spins occur, mostly because the pilot is not expecting it. If you are expecting it and recognize it as a stall, you have been trained, from often about the 4th lesson, that to recover from a stall you put the nose down, But if you don't recognize it is a stall, you will do exactly the opposite and make things worse.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Yup. Was a time when you did spins during training so you could see just how worser it could get.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Just don’t use the ailerons. Have to be disciplined. Takes practice. Enough that you don’t get scared. The fear is what’s screwing you up.

 

[midlifeflyer]

" All that right rudder you need when the nose is high and power is full needs to be neutralized at the point of the stall. "

Took me the longest time to figure this out.

I had a student who figured it out quickly when he kept all that right rudder in and sent us into a spin. It ended up being a great lesson on using your feet.

BTW, just in case, I am talking about neutralizing the excess right rudder, not giving up rudder control to maintain wings level flight as you continue the recovery.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One can't generalize. it all depends on the airplane. You use whatever rudder, in whatever quantity, it takes to stop the drop. In a 172 a full-power stall will drop the left wing even if the ball is centered, and there will be lots of right rudder in. If you neutralize the rudder at the wing drop, you'll get your spin to the left. One has to use MORE rudder to pick up that wing.

I haven't seen the left wing drop in a 172 stall when rudder control is maintained, not even during a falling leaf.

The student event I described was in a 172. It was an incipient spin to the right.

But my real question is, why are you looking at the ball during a visual power in stall? That may be why the wing is dropping to begin with.

Sorry about generalizing but I've seen the same behavior in all 30+ make/models of singles I've flown. Some more aggressive in the stall that others, sure, but the technique is the same.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I haven't seen the left wing drop in a 172 stall when rudder control is maintained, not even during a falling leaf.

The student event I described was in a 172. It was an incipient spin to the right.

But my real question is, why are you looking at the ball during a visual power in stall? That may be why the wing is dropping to begin with.

Sorry about generalizing but I've seen the same behavior in all 30+ make/models of singles I've flown. Some more aggressive in the stall that others, sure, but the technique is the same.

All of our flight school 172s would drop the left wing in a power-on stall. We did a lot of those, many at full power. The spiraling slipstream off the prop results in a higher AoA at the left wing root than on the right, encouraging the stall to start sooner there. The propeller torque reaction adds to it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

All of our flight school 172s would drop the left wing in a power-on stall. We did a lot of those, many at full power. The spiraling slipstream off the prop results in a higher AoA at the left wing root than on the right, encouraging the stall to start sooner there. The propeller torque reaction adds to it.

I believe you've seen it. I have not.

 

[RonP]

Iniercept_flight,

My instructor taught me to “step on the high wing” meaning push the rudder pedal on the side that has the high wing. Very simple to remember. If the left wing is high push on the left rudder pedal. Very easy to remember and perform.

 

[Spring Ford]

Close to or beyond the stall it is no longer the same airplane and you need to change the way you operate the controls.

For example, the Space Shuttle. In orbit, to change the orbital path you point it the way you want and fire the engine using the rules of orbital mechanics. Once re-entered and flying in the air it is an airplane and you do coordinated turns with ailerons and rudder, then on the ground a different control regime again is required.

A space shuttle pilot who repeatedly tried the rudder during orbit would likely be soon fired.

So, you need to learn how to control the aircraft in the close to stall regime. It needs to become muscle memory and you will need to practice it until it does.

This is not an academic exercise with no practical application. Failure, say during a go-around attempt, could be unpleasant.

I have ZERO pilot instructing experience however maybe you need to go and practice slow flight using only the rudder for roll control until you get happier? Probably including power on stalls. Sounds like you may need an instructor for it and/or use a less exciting airplane. You don't want to die trying to save your life.

Maybe do a full spins session with an instructor in a suitable aircraft? I am not suggesting an hour of spins. All I have ever seen was one demo and one with me flying. I still remember it, I was shocked :-()

But don't worry, people can learn to drive cars and to ride horses.

 

[dmspilot]

You are not required to use full power, and there are many reasons why you should practice them at partial power (especially in a Cirrus).

It frustrates me when people teach or learn maneuvers as if the series of steps is the important part, like you're learning a recipe for a chocolate chip cookie.

 

[Dan Thomas]

You are not required to use full power, and there are many reasons why you should practice them at partial power (especially in a Cirrus).

It frustrates me when people teach or learn maneuvers as if the series of steps is the important part, like you're learning a recipe for a chocolate chip cookie.

The full-power departure stall is the only way to learn what happens at full power in a departure stall. It can get violent, and doing it at partial power is just teaching complacency.

Yup, the rote learning of 1-2-3 stuff can be detrimental.

 

[dmspilot]

The full-power departure stall is the only way to learn what happens at full power in a departure stall. It can get violent, and doing it at partial power is just teaching complacency.

I didn't mean only practice them at partial power. Sorry if my statement was ambiguous.

They should be practiced at all power settings. I don't agree with your second statement at all.

Partial power stalls are not for teaching complacency, they're for teaching realism. God forbid your student ever stalls while taking off from a high DA airport, where a power-on stall is more likely to occur in the first place.

A negative learning outcome results when the student learns that an absurdly large nose-high attitude is required for a power-on stall to occur.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I didn't mean only practice them at partial power. Sorry if my statement was ambiguous.

They should be practiced at all power settings. I don't agree with your second statement at all.

Partial power stalls are not for teaching complacency, they're for teaching realism. God forbid your student ever stalls while taking off from a high DA airport, where a power-on stall is more likely to occur in the first place.

A negative learning outcome results when the student learns that an absurdly large nose-high attitude is required for a power-on stall to occur.

We taught both partial- and full-power stalls. The whole range. Power-off for the ab initio student. We did partial-power takeoffs to simulate high-DA takeoffs.

 

[RoscoeT]

" All that right rudder you need when the nose is high and power is full needs to be neutralized at the point of the stall. "

Took me the longest time to figure this out.

Not necessarily. Depends on the airplane and how much rudder you're holding. I've flown airplanes that just naturally want to drop the left wing during a power on stall even after holding sufficient right rudder before the stall. In this case you have to add MORE right rudder to keep the wings level after the stall. Just look out the window and use whatever amount rudder in whatever direction is required to control roll during the stall.

 

[Jr Hampton]

So yes, I generalized a bit. My issue, in 172, full power dep stall, I was always getting right wing drop. Turns out I was a bit slow in removing the right rudder. Once I figured that out, all was better.

 

[Tantalum]

I was told to step on the high wing. For me that was a very simple rule. It's like balancing on one of those boards with the tiny ball under it

 

[iamtheari]

Hopefully, your instructor is spending some time teaching you (either directly or indirectly, such as discussing it with you until you stumble on the answer) why we use the rudder instead of ailerons to lift the falling wing in a stall or why it takes more control input (elevator and rudder) as the airspeed deteriorates toward the stall in the first place. If not, ask him or her to talk about the aerodynamics. The better you understand why these things happen, the easier it will be to assimilate them into a coherent stick-and-rudder skillset by which you fly the plane rather than just going for a ride in it. You have a good start in understanding that the angle of attack is what stalls the wing, so you're not doing anything really wrong as yet.

 

[PaulS]

Yup, step on the high wing. I think it's a good lesson if a wing drops during a stall. It ingrains the maneuver into your brain. The incorrect answer is jamb the aileron to lift the wing. That's why I was surprised that Cirrus recommends coordinated rudder and ailerons. Cirrus has the cuffed wing so the ailerons are still effective in a stall, but still.

Oh and rudder only works great in a Cirrus and yes, when the wing drops it drops quickly.

 

[Clip4]

I am a student pilot, and when I perform power on stalls in SR-20

1. I slow to 70 knots (Takeoff speed)
   
   
2. Flaps 50%
   
   
3. Add full power
   
   
4. Apply rudder to stay on heading
   
   
5. Increase angle of attack till a stall happens
   
   
6. The nose eventually drops, and as it does, the plane banks to the right, which kind of freaks me out. My instructor says don't apply aileron to level the wings till you recover from the stall. That is easier to say than do as my immediate action is to push the yoke to the left.

Any thoughts on this, please?

Have your CFI demonstrate and you practice a power off turning stall at 10° bank and keep turning after the recovery.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The better you understand why these things happen, the easier it will be to assimilate them into a coherent stick-and-rudder skillset by which you fly the plane rather than just going for a ride in it.

The best sentence in the whole thread.