Why, why, WHY are aviation businessmen so bad?

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jun 6, 2008
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Ingleside, TX
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Jay Honeck
Long rant -- sorry.

Once again I find myself in the uniquely frustrating position of having aviation money to spend, and no where to spend it.

I've got three things that need doing. A 406 MHz ELT installation, power to the pilot's yoke for a tablet, and power to an ADS-B receiver.

Since moving to Texas in 2010 I've been without an avionics shop, so I'm viewing this as a "test case" for future work. In other words, if they don't eff up this simple job, I will consider them for bigger jobs down the road.

We see this all the time, in our business. Just last night we had two couples fly in and reserve just one night. After an enjoyable overnight stay, this morning they extended through the weekend. Testing the waters, as it were.

All three tasks are simple jobs. I could do them myself in an evening, if we didn't live in regulatory Bizarro World. Perfect for evaluating a new shop.

First, I go to my local Texas aviators group, and ask for recommendations. Bingo, I get several votes for Shop A.

Call Shop A. No answer, leave a message. Email Shop A. No answer. Eventually I learn that the avionics guy at Shop A died six months ago. Great. Why is he still listed -- with his PHOTO -- on their webpage?

Idiots.

Fine, on to Shop B. This is a more local guy, relatively new to the area. Still, he has a recent reputation for good work.

He answers his phone -- a good sign. Within minutes, however, it's obvious that he's distracted. It turns out he's with another customer at some outlying airport, and could I email him with what I want done?

Sure! In fact, I prefer email, because it's precise. No "But you saids..." down the line -- it's all there in black and white.

So, I compose it, and off it goes.

Days go by, with no response. Finally I go back to the Texas Aviators list, and spell out what's going on, asking for other avionics recommendations.

As expected, THAT brought an email response from the Shop B guy. He claimed to have sent a response from his iPhone, and that it must not have gone out, blah blah blah. Whatever, I don't care. When can we get together?

I tell him my available times to deliver the plane. He says this week won't work. I suggest next week, same day.

He will let me know, after checking his schedule.

WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE? Are only incompetent, monkey-brained twits attracted to aviation? If I had a nickel for every minute I have wasted with interior shops, FBOs, A&P mechanics, and avionic techs, I'd be a freaking billionaire.

Why is he unable to make an appointment a week in the future? Why don't these people answer phones or emails? Why, if they are so busy, are they always broke and continually failing?

After waiting ten days for an email response, I have given up. Does ANYONE have a recommendation for an avionics tech in South Texas who understands the most basic level of customer service?

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Jay.......
Experimentals are lookin better all the time for ya....
 
While I agree with you in principal that people should be organized, in practice, they aren't. I also agree that it's particularly strong in aviation and home improvement and repair contractors. Something in the water. Ha.

I wouldn't have allowed the "days go by without a response" part without at least a daily phone call if not a daily e-mail.

As far as the open ended calendar check, I wouldn't have let that happen either.

"I understand you don't have your calendar with you. What time can I expect a call from you later today with your availability? I can give you a call then."

I don't play open-ended if I have the decision-maker on the phone. Secretaries, message takers, okay... But if I'm asking YOU and you don't know, I'll press the issue and ask when you'll know your own schedule. I know mine. ;)

I set reminders in MY calendar for when people are supposed to call me back. If they don't call, I call them. After doing this a few times, you'll note that our monkey brains can be trained. They typically then start calling with whatever excuse they have for not knowing yet, at which point, refer to the original strategy...

"Understand you don't have the information you said you would, when can I expect your call with that information?"

Doesn't have to be unpleasant or rude. Just assertive.

Example, I have a note that I will have a particular report I can't run myself "by the end of the day" today from someone. I know that someone likes to leave work early on Fridays and have a beer. I will remind them around 3PM that I need the report or something they want ME to do, won't get accomplished until the report is in hand.

Time management of other's time when they're too clueless to do it, sometimes is a necessity.

People are always shocked when I can easily tell them what I'm doing on a random date two months from now. They've just tossed a random comment out, "oh maybe we can do that on a Saturday in November"...

"Okay, which one? (Looking at my phone...) Looks like X and Y are open for me. Want to book it?"

The answer almost always is, "Oh I have to check with blah, and so, and yadda..."

"Okay, let me know when you're ready to book it. My schedule fills up pretty fast. There's almost never an open weekend day a week or two out." -- If it's something they want done.

Or...

"Okay, when will you know? I'll give you a call to schedule. I'll put a reminder in here now." -- If it's something we both want done or I want done.

What'll really freak someone out is calling to cancel something two or three months out or asking to reschedule because you have personal PRIORITIES.

So few do, they're sometimes "offended" at your choice of something else over them. "But I was on your calendar first!" I don't do that often, but sometimes you just have to say, "Apologies for your inconvenience, but I've got something that came up that I've been trying to get done for months..." Or it is family-related (sorry, you lose... Family comes first here...) or whatever.

That's my take on it. Why ALLOW him to jerk you around to the point where you have to go be a drama-queen on the pilot's mailing list? Sure... He should have replied, but who cares... Dog him. It takes a lot less time, effort, and drama. :)
 
Call some of the same shops and tell them you want to install a G-600 panel with all the bells and whistles. See if the response is any different.

PS: Do you already own the ELT or will you be purchasing it from the installer?
 
denverpilot said:
That's my take on it. Why ALLOW him to jerk you around to the point where you have to go be a drama-queen on the pilot's mailing list? Sure... He should have replied, but who cares... Dog him. It takes a lot less time, effort, and drama. :)
Click to expand...

I don't have time to run other people's businesses. Just yesterday I terminated our relationship with our business insurance agent because he had the time management skills of a ferret on meth, and could never provide me with timely answers. If you know anything about business insurance on an island in the Gulf of Mexico, you know we're talking many, many AMUs.

As I get older, my patience for disorganized businessmen has grown thinner and thinner. Whether it's a car salesmen, my kid's teachers, or my banker, I expect a minimal level of adult organizational skill. Above all else, I expect reliability and the ability to answer calls and emails. Anyone incapable of scheduling themselves, their business or their time doesn't deserve my money.

That all said, it is ASTOUNDING how consistent this behavior is in aviation. The only worse bunch, in my experience, have been plumbers. They're so bad, I have simply taught myself plumbing so that there is no longer a need for their services.

I can see why there are so many unapproved installations in certificated aircraft.



Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Just one reason I built an RV-10.

Well, has he got back with his schedule. It should not take that long. I run an hvac business and don't always have the schedule in front of me, but will give a time that I will call back. Good luck.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Long rant -- sorry.

Once again I find myself in the uniquely frustrating position of having aviation money to spend, and no where to spend it.

I've got three things that need doing. A 406 MHz ELT installation, power to the pilot's yoke for a tablet, and power to an ADS-B receiver.

Since moving to Texas in 2010 I've been without an avionics shop, so I'm viewing this as a "test case" for future work. In other words, if they don't eff up this simple job, I will consider them for bigger jobs down the road.

We see this all the time, in our business. Just last night we had two couples fly in and reserve just one night. After an enjoyable overnight stay, this morning they extended through the weekend. Testing the waters, as it were.

All three tasks are simple jobs. I could do them myself in an evening, if we didn't live in regulatory Bizarro World. Perfect for evaluating a new shop.

First, I go to my local Texas aviators group, and ask for recommendations. Bingo, I get several votes for Shop A.

Call Shop A. No answer, leave a message. Email Shop A. No answer. Eventually I learn that the avionics guy at Shop A died six months ago. Great. Why is he still listed -- with his PHOTO -- on their webpage?

Idiots.

Fine, on to Shop B. This is a more local guy, relatively new to the area. Still, he has a recent reputation for good work.

He answers his phone -- a good sign. Within minutes, however, it's obvious that he's distracted. It turns out he's with another customer at some outlying airport, and could I email him with what I want done?

Sure! In fact, I prefer email, because it's precise. No "But you saids..." down the line -- it's all there in black and white.

So, I compose it, and off it goes.

Days go by, with no response. Finally I go back to the Texas Aviators list, and spell out what's going on, asking for other avionics recommendations.

As expected, THAT brought an email response from the Shop B guy. He claimed to have sent a response from his iPhone, and that it must not have gone out, blah blah blah. Whatever, I don't care. When can we get together?

I tell him my available times to deliver the plane. He says this week won't work. I suggest next week, same day.

He will let me know, after checking his schedule.

WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE? Are only incompetent, monkey-brained twits attracted to aviation? If I had a nickel for every minute I have wasted with interior shops, FBOs, A&P mechanics, and avionic techs, I'd be a freaking billionaire.

Why is he unable to make an appointment a week in the future? Why don't these people answer phones or emails? Why, if they are so busy, are they always broke and continually failing?

After waiting ten days for an email response, I have given up. Does ANYONE have a recommendation for an avionics tech in South Texas who understands the most basic level of customer service?

Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...

Only second to real estate agents.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because they are aviators, not businessmen.
Click to expand...

My experience differs from yours...

I probably know 50 A&P's, I would guess maybe 3 are licensed pilots..

Out of a dozen or so other aviation related techs, ie avionics, props etc.... I know exacly one who is a pilot.. .

Just cause they work in the aviation field does not make them "aviators".:no:... IMHO.
 
It seems to be a bigger problem with the avionics guys than with other aviation businesses.
 
bbchien said:
Jay, we are NOT all that way.
Click to expand...


Bruce is right. We all are not like that. Some shops around my neck of the woods are begging for work and will bend over backwards to assist a customer.

Work is so thin around here I just drove 250 miles to do some repairs on a cherokee and didnt charge him a cent for mileage.
 
Could it be that he took a dislike to your manner and your tone and basically blew you off because he really did not want to work for you ????. There are times in business were is is best to tell a customer that you would really prefer they have someone else do their work. Some times personalities simply clash even though both parties may be very good people.
 
This has been my experience with a few shops so far. Another pet peeve of mine is mechanics who give an open ended estimate for work completion and then don't call to tell you the work is completed! Don't leave me guessing when you're done. "Oh yeah, we finished the work up on Tuesday" when I call them on Friday asking what's up. WTF?
 
But if they didn't like airplanes they would be working much shorter hours and making much more money working on cars.

N801BH said:
My experience differs from yours...

I probably know 50 A&P's, I would guess maybe 3 are licensed pilots..

Out of a dozen or so other aviation related techs, ie avionics, props etc.... I know exacly one who is a pilot.. .

Just cause they work in the aviation field does not make them "aviators".:no:... IMHO.
Click to expand...
 
Firing will continue until morale improves!

Jay Honeck said:
I don't have time to run other people's businesses. Just yesterday I terminated our relationship with our business insurance agent because he had the time management skills of a ferret on meth, and could never provide me with timely answers. If you know anything about business insurance on an island in the Gulf of Mexico, you know we're talking many, many AMUs.

As I get older, my patience for disorganized businessmen has grown thinner and thinner. Whether it's a car salesmen, my kid's teachers, or my banker, I expect a minimal level of adult organizational skill. Above all else, I expect reliability and the ability to answer calls and emails. Anyone incapable of scheduling themselves, their business or their time doesn't deserve my money.

That all said, it is ASTOUNDING how consistent this behavior is in aviation. The only worse bunch, in my experience, have been plumbers. They're so bad, I have simply taught myself plumbing so that there is no longer a need for their services.

I can see why there are so many unapproved installations in certificated aircraft.



Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...
 
RV10flyer said:
Just one reason I built an RV-10.

Well, has he got back with his schedule. It should not take that long. I run an hvac business and don't always have the schedule in front of me, but will give a time that I will call back. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Nope, he never got back to me. I finally sent him another email today, outlining why he was no longer in the running for my avionics business, now or in the future.

He actually had the gall to respond "Well, if you had CALLED me..." :rolleyes:

(He is the one who REQUESTED that I email him! :mad2:)
 
bbchien said:
Jay, we are NOT all that way.
Click to expand...

Bruce, in the Midwest, after running the gamut of bad avionics shops, I finally found two that were pretty darned good -- Galesburg and Waterloo. Tony, in Waterloo, was outstanding. After they lost him, it went down hill, but Galesburg could usually be counted on, thanks to Harrell running a pretty tight ship.

Unfortunately, they are both a LONG ways away from me now.
 
bartmc said:
Only second to real estate agents.
Click to expand...

I've actually had pretty good luck with realtors. My last guy, in particular, turned out to be a real gem.

Now THERE is a guy with time management skills. I've never seen a guy keep so many balls in the air at once, successfully. I'll bet he answers a hundred text messages a day, all work related.
 
flyer said:
Bruce is right. We all are not like that. Some shops around my neck of the woods are begging for work and will bend over backwards to assist a customer.

Work is so thin around here I just drove 250 miles to do some repairs on a cherokee and didnt charge him a cent for mileage.
Click to expand...

Well, hell, c'mon down and I'll swap you a free stay on the island! ;)
 
Last edited:
Well I guess you taught him a thing or two about how business is done on the island. BTW, where do you think he will be referring his hotel business?

Jay Honeck said:
Nope, he never got back to me. I finally sent him another email today, outlining why he was no longer in the running for my avionics business, now or in the future.

He actually had the gall to respond "Well, if you had CALLED me..." :rolleyes:

(He is the one who REQUESTED that I email him! :mad2:)
Click to expand...
 
Vaflier said:
Could it be that he took a dislike to your manner and your tone and basically blew you off because he really did not want to work for you ????. There are times in business were is is best to tell a customer that you would really prefer they have someone else do their work. Some times personalities simply clash even though both parties may be very good people.
Click to expand...

My tone is always cordial and friendly, no matter whom I'm working with -- right up to the point where it's proven that you're not treating me right. Then, I am not shy about pointing it out and demanding better treatment.

Here's a lesson I've learned from half a century on this planet: Life is too short to eff around with stupid people. I've only got another 25 years or so left on this planet, and I'm gonna spend 8 of those years unconscious. That leaves just 17 years -- why would I waste a second of it on business people who can't return phone calls or schedule appointments?
 
Had the same kind of an issue with a guy here locally that came referred for home improvement work - wanted to get information about adding on to our house. I call the guy, and he sounds like he's completely disengaged with the call. He ends it with "Can you just email me?"

Like you - I prefer email, and wish I could have started with that. So I email him, and hear nothing back for like 3 weeks. At this point, I assume he's moved on and so had I, but then I get an email response back with a half-assed estimate and a quote much, much higher than I was expecting. When I asked him a few questions, he kept dodging them, so I told him "No Thanks," and moved on.

I think there are people running businesses that shouldn't. It frustrates the hell out of me, because I've failed 3 times now at keeping a business going, and I actually have the right attitude and motivation. I'm not sure how these guys stay in business, but seeing them succeed and me fail makes me wonder if maybe that's the key to success - disengage, and let luck take over.
 
spinfire said:
This has been my experience with a few shops so far. Another pet peeve of mine is mechanics who give an open ended estimate for work completion and then don't call to tell you the work is completed! Don't leave me guessing when you're done. "Oh yeah, we finished the work up on Tuesday" when I call them on Friday asking what's up. WTF?
Click to expand...

I hear about this ALL THE TIME. We had a guest last weekend who owns two airplanes. His second one -- a Piper Super Cub -- had been in the shop for ELEVEN MONTHS for an engine overhaul and recovering, with no end date in sight.

When I asked what was going on, he had no idea. He was really irked about it, and called the shop regularly, but just kept getting blown off, and there was really nothing that he could do, now that the covering was off the fuselage. (What's he gonna do -- fly it home?)

He is out almost an entire year of insurance, not to mention a whole year of flying. At his age, that is significant.
 
wabower said:
Well I guess you taught him a thing or two about how business is done on the island. BTW, where do you think he will be referring his hotel business?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: If I laid awake nights worrying about where guys like him sent his hotel guests, I'd have an ulcer.

Besides, I don't think the subject ever came up -- all he knows me as is "that guy who keeps bothering me by trying to make me work"! :D
 
It's not just avionics, I have had the same issue with Landscapers, roofers, painters, etc around the house...

My biggest pet peeve,

If you just don't want the job, its too small, whatever I don't care. But tell me you aren't interested, don't tell me to expect a call and then go off the grid.

My wife will never go to a guy's place of business anymore, because he jacked around with us so long. If you don't want this business fine, but now you have lost it all. He obviously doesn't mind, but I don't either. I do make sure to relay my experience when anyone asks though :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
:rolleyes: If I laid awake nights worrying about where guys like him sent his hotel guests, I'd have an ulcer.

Besides, I don't think the subject ever came up -- all he knows me as is "that guy who keeps bothering me by trying to make me work"! :D
Click to expand...

Well I was going to stay at your place if I was ever in the area anyway, but this post just reinforced your commitment to customer service, so it's not all bad ;)
 
SkyHog said:
I think there are people running businesses that shouldn't. It frustrates the hell out of me, because I've failed 3 times now at keeping a business going, and I actually have the right attitude and motivation. I'm not sure how these guys stay in business, but seeing them succeed and me fail makes me wonder if maybe that's the key to success - disengage, and let luck take over.
Click to expand...

I have seen the very best people fail, due to business conditions. I have also seen the very worst people succeed, due to luck.

This latter group is exceedingly small, however, and their endeavors are largely confined to businesses and government positions where competition is minimal.

It is also my experience that what looks like "success" on the outside may not be so. Sitting on the board of directors of a credit union taught me to look beyond the fancy houses and big boats before pronouncing someone "successful".

You'd be astounded to see the books of folks living in McMansions and driving Escalades. Many are literally one paycheck away from perdition -- but you'd never know it from the way they live.

That said, I don't honestly know any avionics techs or A&Ps in that category. Most of them are just hanging on by their fingernails, in this horrible GA environment -- yet, even when money is literally kicking their door down, too many simply don't have the tools to take advantage of it.
 
Did you answer the question about whether this was a labor-only job or whether you have already purchased the ELT?

What is your rough guess as to the amount of labor time required?

Jay Honeck said:
:rolleyes: If I laid awake nights worrying about where guys like him sent his hotel guests, I'd have an ulcer.

Besides, I don't think the subject ever came up -- all he knows me as is "that guy who keeps bothering me by trying to make me work"! :D
Click to expand...
 
Mafoo said:
Well I was going to stay at your place if I was ever in the area anyway, but this post just reinforced your commitment to customer service, so it's not all bad ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks...I think. :D We have thrived in two very competitive hotel markets for ten years on the basis of one thing, and one thing only: Outstanding customer service. No one does it better, and that is a promise.
 
wabower said:
Did you answer the question about whether this was a labor-only job or whether you have already purchased the ELT?

What is your rough guess as to the amount of labor time required?
Click to expand...

The ELT was purchased at OSH. Labor, I'm guessing MAYBE four hours for an experienced tech -- which means they will charge a full 8-hour day, counting their usual eff-around time.

I figured the guy would probably clear $500 for an afternoon's work.
 
How much would he have to charge you to clear $500?

Jay Honeck said:
The ELT was purchased at OSH. Labor, I'm guessing MAYBE four hours for an experienced tech -- which means they will charge a full 8-hour day, counting their usual eff-around time.

I figured the guy would probably clear $500 for an afternoon's work.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
How much would he have to charge you to clear $500?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "clear".

He's a one-man show. $500 to him is $500...to HIM. It's pretty clear! ;)

As for parts, I've got the ELT and remote switch. The wiring is already in from aft fuselage to panel.

Running power to the yoke and antenna is child's play, especially since I've already got power to both locations -- they just need to be wired in properly.

A good Best Buy stereo installer could do this in two hours. I'm giving an avionics tech four hours -- and expecting to be billed for a full day.
 
Pippen-York in Fredericksburg. Great shop, legendary service.
 
Was your offer to the shop couched in the same terms as you described here? If so, it's hard to understand why he wouldn't accept.
Unless perhaps he's an all-apple shop and thinks the PPL cost-sharing regs are just fine.
 
wabower said:
Was your offer to the shop couched in the same terms as you described here? If so, it's hard to understand why he wouldn't accept.
Unless perhaps he's an all-apple shop and thinks the PPL cost-sharing regs are just fine.
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
SCCutler said:
Pippen-York in Fredericksburg. Great shop, legendary service.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've heard good things about this shop. Trouble is, it's a bit out of our day-trip range, which means an overnight stay. In my world, that is exceedingly rare.
 
denverpilot said:
Those two are mutually exclusive. ;)
Click to expand...

Well, my info is a bit out of date (circa 2007ish), but the last time we used Best Buy to install a stereo was when my son foolishly had them install a gonzo stereo in my wife's Subaru Outback.

They did a fine job. (And that stereo has served many pilots well ever since, as this car was one of our courtesy cars until just this month, when I sold it to one of our staff members. It will now be blowing the windows out for her kids...:D)
 
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