"Why the World is Running Out of Pilots"

Groundpounder said:
So what you think should be the minimum total time for someone to act as a flight crew member on a 121 aircraft?
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I hate judging people on time flown; did they fly 1,000 unique hours, or the same hour 1,000 times? The first pilot will be better equipped than the latter.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I hate judging people on time flown; did they fly 1,000 unique hours, or the same hour 1,000 times? The first pilot will be better equipped than the latter.
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How else would you judge an applicant? And how do you determine what is unique or not?
 
Groundpounder said:
So what you think should be the minimum total time for someone to act as a flight crew member on a 121 aircraft?
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Honestly the old system worked, except there were a lot of 500 hour pilots so eager to work they would do it for practically nothing which kept wages in the tank.

I've seen people lament that there were 250 hour pilots being hired by the regionals. While yes 250 was the minimum to get a commercial license, I can tell you personally that was not the case. During the big hiring period just prior to 9/11, my college had a flow through program to one of the major regionals, and even it required a 4 year degree, 500 total and 100 multi to interview. I never knew anyone getting on with a regional with less than that. Unless you had the money to pay for all of it, most didn't even have the 100 multi at 500 hours.

As others have pointed out as well, hours don't necessarily make the pilot. As a matter of fact it is a poor indicator of ability, although it is the easiest. Look at the incidents we have had in the last few years. They weren't caused by low time pilots. Without digging, I'm not sure any of the accidents in the last 20-30 years were attributed to low time pilots. The idea of a low-time pilot is just a scare tactic for the media. I can tell you from being involved in the politics during the 1500 hour law, the biggest push was the unions. They wanted to create an artificial labor shortage to drive up the low wages. They used the tears of the victims families to make it happen. It worked.
 
I am in the boat of quality over quantity as well but that opens a whole can of worms. Truth be told 5-800 hours is a lot of experience and is sufficient to be a FO on a regional. There have been no indications otherwise. I wouldn't mind making 25k a year if I had only invested in 500 flight hours knowing the pay will go up rapidly. At 1500 hours I expect a much higher paycheck.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I hate judging people on time flown; did they fly 1,000 unique hours, or the same hour 1,000 times? The first pilot will be better equipped than the latter.
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I sort of have this issue with hour building by being a CFI due to exactly that. 1000 hours teaching a noob how to land vs 1000 hours going many places in all sorts of weather just feels like very different types of experience. Not that teaching noobs to land is useless as experience, it makes you very good at saving yourself from death at the last second and probably really gels the basics because you are having to repeatedly teach them to someone else. That's valuable. But it's still not the same 1000 hours and when I fly commercial I want the pilot to have a lot of the other too.
 
Groundpounder said:
I don't agree with everything you said, but what is wrong with higher wages?
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Oh I don't disagree. The wages were ridiculous. Some regional FOs were barely making the equivalent of minimum wage, for a job that requires expensive specialized training and a degree. But as a group, we pilots are our own worst enemy. Flying is not just a career, but a passion. There is always someone else willing to do it cheaper in order to do what they are passionate about. The airlines only pay what they have to in order to keep the front seats filled, don't blame them. I've even see ads from some corporate operators offering turbine time flying for them, THAT YOU HAVE TO PAY THEM! What other career field offers to let you pay for the pleasure of working?

Driving up the barrier to entry does indeed raise wages, but at the same time the cost to reach that barrier goes up as well. I guess time will tell if pilots ultimately come out ahead or break even.
 
If regional airlines paid a bit more and I was willing to move I might have stayed in industry as a pilot. But I’ve started to learn I liked the management and investigative side more especially after joining the airline safety department part time. So I bowed out to chase that bit of the dream when I was given my current great opportunity.

The life style takes a certain type of person. Someone who doesn’t mind living out of a bag and not being able to plan your life more then a month in advanced. I love the fact I can currently schedule vacations months out and know for 100% certainty I’m off for the holidays or any other major event. Don’t get me wrong I was in an amazing position at my airline. But I was still at the whim of month to month schedules and some months it just didn’t work out. A great month was 70/75 hours with 18 days off. My worst month was 65ish hours with 10 off and no commutable trips. That month was a fluke of very bad rebidding strategy on my part.

I’m thinking of building to scratch the flying itch so that I don’t go stir crazy not flying.
 
Clip4 said:
A 4 year degree to be a commercial airline pilot is nonsense.
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Right.... bachelors in music somehow makes you “smart” and a good bet to be a pilot. For my degree path, the math, science and English requirements were basically just a rehash of high school for me.
 
ARFlyer said:
If regional airlines paid a bit more and I was willing to move I might have stayed in industry as a pilot. But I’ve started to learn I liked the management and investigative side more especially after joining the airline safety department part time. So I bowed out to chase that bit of the dream when I was given my current great opportunity.

The life style takes a certain type of person. Someone who doesn’t mind living out of a bag and not being able to plan your life more then a month in advanced. I love the fact I can currently schedule vacations months out and know for 100% certainty I’m off for the holidays or any other major event. Don’t get me wrong I was in an amazing position at my airline. But I was still at the whim of month to month schedules and some months it just didn’t work out. A great month was 70/75 hours with 18 days off. My worst month was 65ish hours with 10 off and no commutable trips. That month was a fluke of very bad rebidding strategy on my part.

I’m thinking of building to scratch the flying itch so that I don’t go stir crazy not flying.
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Damn man, you quit again? What you up to these days?

I hear ya 100% on the schedule. Me and the wife were throwing some ideas back and forth, and doing some back of the napkin math and realized by the time I retire out of the military, our kid would be exactly entering high school. Oops lol. That's a real bad time to be starting an airline career for me, especially as a retired guy without the ability to MLOA.

We both concluded that if there ever was a period of time we could "afford" for daddy to be "out of the picture" for four years playing traveling potato, it would be now at 5 years old, OR during college.But 9-12th is a big non-starter for me.

Thankfully if I make it to the check of the month club,there's some short-legged pilot gigs I could do part time if I'm so inclined to keep the turbine currency, plus a lot of niche contract work I could do on bankers hours as a freshly retired fighter-trainer guy on the defense side. So I'm a lot more optimistic these days about my immediate post retirement work outlook. It's good to have options.

Good luck on your next chapter!
 
Unit74 said:
Right.... bachelors in music somehow makes you “smart” and a good bet to be a pilot. For my degree path, the math, science and English requirements were basically just a rehash of high school for me.
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Well... with a music degree you can learn to blow your own horn. Good skill for pilots.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Damn man, you quit again? What you up to these days?

I hear ya 100% on the schedule. Me and the wife were throwing some ideas back and forth, and doing some back of the napkin math and realized by the time I retire out of the military, our kid would be exactly entering high school. Oops lol. That's a real bad time to be starting an airline career for me, especially as a retired guy without the ability to MLOA.

We both concluded that if there ever was a period of time we could "afford" for daddy to be "out of the picture" for four years playing traveling potato, it would be now at 5 years old, OR during college.But 9-12th is a big non-starter for me.

Thankfully if I make it to the check of the month club,there's some short-legged pilot gigs I could do part time if I'm so inclined to keep the turbine currency, plus a lot of niche contract work I could do on bankers hours as a freshly retired fighter-trainer guy on the defense side. So I'm a lot more optimistic these days about my immediate post retirement work outlook. It's good to have options.

Good luck on your next chapter!
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Haha, the first one was due to a dying company and this one was moving up the industry ladder early this year.

I got hired by a certain Friendly Acronym Agency. :D

Currently the plan is to either work my way back into the Airline or Commercial Space Division. Always wanted to work for NASA but I’m not an engineer nor qualified to be an Astronaut. So the second best thing is via the Commercial Space door.

You doing Gaston’s this year?
 
ARFlyer said:
I got hired by a certain Friendly Acronym Agency. :D
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Congrats man! The airline lifestyle ain’t for everyone (or even most), and it’s cool that you recognized that and did something about it. Too many guys grin and bear their way through the industry just to be miserable and stuck down the line.
 
ARFlyer said:
Haha, the first one was due to a dying company and this one was moving up the industry ladder early this year.

I got hired by a certain Friendly Acronym Agency. :D

Currently the plan is to either work my way back into the Airline or Commercial Space Division. Always wanted to work for NASA but I’m not an engineer nor qualified to be an Astronaut. So the second best thing is via the Commercial Space door.

You doing Gaston’s this year?
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Interesting...what are you looking to do in Commercial Space? I work as an engineer in the Commercial Space industry.
 
Unit74 said:
Right.... bachelors in music somehow makes you “smart” and a good bet to be a pilot. For my degree path, the math, science and English requirements were basically just a rehash of high school for me.
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an engineering degree was way more than a rehash of my high school 's math and science courses . I purposely didn't take flying lessons when I was young and fiance free because I figured I'd just spend all my money on airplanes. Now, it seems I don't have any left to spend on airplanes.
 
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Crashnburn said:
an engineering degree was way more than a rehash of my high school 's math and science courses . I purposely didn't take flying lessons when I was young and fiance Fred because I figured I'd just spend all my money on airplanes. Now, it seems I don't have any left to spend on airplanes.
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Are you flying regionals or a major carrier? What do they say about degrees?
 
Actually, I'm still a pre-solo student pilot. I make my living writing and fixing firmware that loads and runs automatically with minimal user interaction.
 
Pay and you will have pilots.

Airlines are using this as a reason to invest in automation so one pilot can do the job. Cargo airlines will be the first and passenger airlines will follow.
 
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