Why Radar

I dunno. Flown that approach a bunch since it's my home drome. BLBBY is in the C, and crosses over the FAC for 35 into GRR.

The probably don't want you and SWA748 to say hello. That would be my best guess.
 
Is BLBBY in the GPS?
 
John Collins said:
Jepp charts show Radar is required for procedure entry from enroute airways.
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Yup. Which is wrong as far as I can tell. I was thinking maybe it was on there just at ATC Request. But it doesn’t make sense Jepp would word it like that if so.
upload_2021-5-10_17-51-55.png
 
Bill said:
I'd love to know the real answer, there are plenty like this that on the face of it would not seem to require RADAR yet do.

@Radar Contact ?
@Velocity173 ?
@aterpster ?
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Can you show me a few. No pic needed, just the airport and the name of the Approach will do. I've never seen one before that had no apparent reason on the Chart
 
John Collins said:
Jepp charts show Radar is required for procedure entry from enroute airways.
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So if JAKES wasn't on on airway, and it's only on the airway if you have RNAV/GPS, and BLBBY was the only IAF, RADAR wouldn't be required?
(PMM 029 radial is unusable)
 
EdFred said:
So if JAKES wasn't on on airway, and it's only on the airway if you have RNAV/GPS, and BLBBY was the only IAF, RADAR wouldn't be required?
(PMM 029 radial is unusable)
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JAKES, BLBBY and BOHRR are all on Airways. UNSUN used to be, V510, but it’s gone.
 
I have never flown to BLBBY from an airway. Honestly, didn't even know it was on one since I'm always coming in from the NW when I take that approach. -D-> JAKES.GPS12
 
luvflyin said:
Can you show me a few. No pic needed, just the airport and the name of the Approach will do. I've never seen one before that had no apparent reason on the Chart
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Interesting, the local approach I'm thinking of no longer says RADAR REQUIRED. Strange...
 
EdFred said:
@RussR might have an answer as well.
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I can't see a reason for the RADAR REQUIRED note. There are connections to the Low Enroute structure, lack of which used to be the trigger for that note, even for RNAV (GPS) procedures. That requirement for RNAV procedures went away a couple of years ago, but this procedure was published before then (2018), so it would have been under the old rules, but still should not have needed the note.

The IFP Gateway has the source document, but it doesn't give any additional clues.

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp...9D9-NDBR/MI_9D9_RNAV (GPS) RWY 12, AMDT 2.pdf
 
RussR said:
I can't see a reason for the RADAR REQUIRED note. There are connections to the Low Enroute structure, lack of which used to be the trigger for that note, even for RNAV (GPS) procedures. That requirement for RNAV procedures went away a couple of years ago, but this procedure was published before then (2018), so it would have been under the old rules, but still should not have needed the note.

The IFP Gateway has the source document, but it doesn't give any additional clues.

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp/NDBR/2016082332859604002-9D9-NDBR/MI_9D9_RNAV (GPS) RWY 12, AMDT 2.pdf
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Yeah. I saw that. Sometimes you find an 8260-[some number] that has 'reasons' for things, like Chart Notes. I'd like to see that. I'm gonna do an inquiry on this one and see what I get.
 
RussR said:
I can't see a reason for the RADAR REQUIRED note. There are connections to the Low Enroute structure, lack of which used to be the trigger for that note, even for RNAV (GPS) procedures. That requirement for RNAV procedures went away a couple of years ago, but this procedure was published before then (2018), so it would have been under the old rules, but still should not have needed the note.

The IFP Gateway has the source document, but it doesn't give any additional clues.

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp/NDBR/2016082332859604002-9D9-NDBR/MI_9D9_RNAV (GPS) RWY 12, AMDT 2.pdf
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Only 'da FPT know. And, they have probably been disbanded.

o_O

9D9.jpg
 
Here is a better copy in PDF of the complete coordination "F" file.
 

Attachments

  • MI_K9D9_RNAV GPS RWY 12_A2_F.pdf
    444.6 KB · Views: 11
"FTP" stands for? Flight test personnel?
 
aterpster said:
Only 'da FPT know. And, they have probably been disbanded.

o_O

View attachment 96250
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The plot thickens. Why it was ever NA from JAKES and BOHRR is a head scratcher. If it wasn’t Authorized from those fixes, then why were the even on the Chart. As supposedly Initial and Feeder segments. What is the FPT?

EDIT: I’m sure the JAKES and BOHRR notes were the ‘airway radials CW from ### to ###’ things.
 
Last edited:
FPT. Functional Potential Threshold. And it appears that they reached it.
 
aterpster said:
Correct. And, I believe they were disbanded during the latest reorganization. Or, at least changed.
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So it's wrong. They say ATC wanted it. Can't find out why. So, oh well. I think I remember something about FPT's. If I remember right they were local to ATC facilities like Tracons and Centers. A commitee of Controllers to evaluate how Instrument Procedures would affect them at that Facility.

Your Aeronautical Inquiry has been closed. If you have followup questions or comments, please use the online inquiry form instead of sending via email.
========================================================
FAA Response:
Mr *******, I agree with your assessment on the RADAR Required note in the planview area on both of the RNAV procedures at 9D9. The note was added at the request of the Flight Procedures Team back in 2018 when the procedures were amended due to a construction project. The "why" was not captured but in these types of situations it is usually a the request of Air Traffic Control.
========================================================
AI-201021
Category: Procedure Design > US Terminal Procedures
Airport: 9D9
State: MI
Procedure Name: RNAV (GPS) RWY 12
Inquiry: The Chart has RADAR REQUIRED in Planview. There seems to be no reason for the this. There are three fixes that connect to the Enroute Structure. Two IAF's, JAKES and BLBBY and one Feeder, BOHRR. UNSUN does not but it appears that it used to via V510 which seems to no longer exist in that area. Jeppesen charts it as (For Procedure Entry from the Enroute Environment). The RNAV(GPS) RWY 30 also has RADAR REQUIRED. It connects to the Enroute Structure via the Feeder BOHRR. POSIE, an IAF is also shown, but the segment of V170 it is on is charted as 'unusable' on the L 28 Chart.
========================================================
You may view your Aeronautical Inquiries online at https://nfdc.faa.gov
Aeronautical Information Portal
https://nfdc.faa.gov
 
luvflyin said:
So it's wrong. They say ATC wanted it. Can't find out why. So, oh well. I think I remember something about FPT's. If I remember right they were local to ATC facilities like Tracons and Centers. A commitee of Controllers to evaluate how Instrument Procedures would affect them at that Facility.
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Not the case in 2018. The FPT consisted of various FAA specialties at the three service areas; Western (Seattle), Central (Dallas), and Eastern (Atlanta). Monthly, each of these three FPTs met as the Regional Airspace Procedures Team (RAPT). I called in on the Western-Pacific and Northwestern Mountain RAPT conference calls each month for a few years (representing NBAA). They emailed an agenda in advance. The FAA members of the team were voting members. None of them were from ATC facilities. Often, a procedures specialist from an affected ATC facility would call in on an agenda item that involved his airspace. I don't recall one of them saying, "We want 'radar required' for the KABC RNAV 12." It seemed to me such notes were decided behind the scenes of the RAPT meeting. BTW, anyone with an aviation interest could call in on a RAPT meeting.
 
aterpster said:
Not the case in 2018. The FPT consisted of various FAA specialties at the three service areas; Western (Seattle), Central (Dallas), and Eastern (Atlanta). Monthly, each of these three FPTs met as the Regional Airspace Procedures Team (RAPT). I called in on the Western-Pacific and Northwestern Mountain RAPT conference calls each month for a few years (representing NBAA). They emailed an agenda in advance. The FAA members of the team were voting members. None of them were from ATC facilities. Often, a procedures specialist from an affected ATC facility would call in on an agenda item that involved his airspace. I don't recall one of them saying, "We want 'radar required' for the KABC RNAV 12." It seemed to me such notes were decided behind the scenes of the RAPT meeting. BTW, anyone with an aviation interest could call in on a RAPT meeting.
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Thanks for the info.
 
The IAF is about tan miles away at the edge of bottom of the Grand Rapds airspace which has runways in the same direction. It looks to me like they want radar control to separate GranRapids flights from those on the ILS into Hastings.
 
MBDiagMan said:
The IAF is about tan miles away at the edge of bottom of the Grand Rapds airspace which has runways in the same direction. It looks to me like they want radar control to separate GranRapids flights from those on the ILS into Hastings.
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They don't need a note on an approach chart to provide radar separation. That done in every metro area most of the time.
 
Well then look at KRBD that has its ILS right on line with the DFW jet traffic that comes in on the Cowboy parallel to it. It also indicates radar.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Well then look at KRBD that has its ILS right on line with the DFW jet traffic that comes in on the Cowboy parallel to it. It also indicates radar.
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It has Radar Required because there is no connection to the Enroute Structure.
 
luvflyin said:
It has Radar Required because there is no connection to the Enroute Structure.
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No initial approach segment, either. Both FAA and Jepp say, "radar required for procedure entry."
 
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