Why not a Sundowner? Another plane thread...

jbrinker

jbrinker

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jbrinker
Mission: PPL Student approaching check ride. I'd like to get a plane of my own, for time building, and short to medium trips (2h - 6h) with my wife and possibly teenage daughter. 99% of my training so far is in a cherokee 140 (160hp conv).

Looking around at lots of 172, cherokees, etc. Also have considered Tri-pacer, and other "oldies" like Stinson 108.

Requirements: 2-doors (not negotiable, single-door pipers etc will not pass the wife test), prefer low-wing but not stuck on that. Wife and I are both fairly small (150lb) people, daughter is like 120 soaking wet. Bonus if it's something I can get my IFR rating in.

I found a 76 Beech Sundowner 180hp not far away. It looks really well kept, 3000TT, 800SMOH. Decent avionics (no glass). Paint/Int 10/10. Asking 30K, probably negotiable.

Budget: Let's say 40K to acquire the plane and first year maint, ideally with some left over for flying.

I mentioned this plane to my instructor and he was really opposed. (He's an A&P/IA as well). Due to maintenance and parts cost - he said I would likely regret it the first time I needed a part. Note he has not seen the plane, I just mentioned it to him. He said "get a Piper or Cessna".

Reading up on these planes, they appear to be very well built, very comfortable, a bit slow for the HP/Class (due to wider cabin) and pretty well respected. But expensive to fix.

Looking for real advice. Other planes that would qualify would be a Socata TB9 or 10, Rockwell Commander, Possibly even a Grumman (no doors at all!). But most of those are way out of this price range. Clearly there are plenty of 172's in this price range, and even some 182's.

Timeline: Not in a hurry. Hope to pass the checkride this spring/early summer once good weather returns and I can fly a lot. Was looking to acquire something soon after. Have considered just getting a "beater" cherokee/172 just to really build some time. But keep reading to "buy your last plane first". Well I can't afford my LAST plane, but maybe my second plane first?
 
If Grumman is in play, you can find many Travelers in the same price range as Cherokees. Make sure you get a Grumman-specific prebuy though, there's lots to watch for.

Just curious, what's the wife's concern with one door (assuming she's a passenger, the door is on her side so...).
 
jbrinker said:
Mission: PPL Student approaching check ride. I'd like to get a plane of my own, for time building, and short to medium trips (2h - 6h) with my wife and possibly teenage daughter. 99% of my training so far is in a cherokee 140 (160hp conv).

Looking around at lots of 172, cherokees, etc. Also have considered Tri-pacer, and other "oldies" like Stinson 108.

Requirements: 2-doors (not negotiable, single-door pipers etc will not pass the wife test), prefer low-wing but not stuck on that. Wife and I are both fairly small (150lb) people, daughter is like 120 soaking wet. Bonus if it's something I can get my IFR rating in.

I found a 76 Beech Sundowner 180hp not far away. It looks really well kept, 3000TT, 800SMOH. Decent avionics (no glass). Paint/Int 10/10. Asking 30K, probably negotiable.

Budget: Let's say 40K to acquire the plane and first year maint, ideally with some left over for flying.

I mentioned this plane to my instructor and he was really opposed. (He's an A&P/IA as well). Due to maintenance and parts cost - he said I would likely regret it the first time I needed a part. Note he has not seen the plane, I just mentioned it to him. He said "get a Piper or Cessna".

Reading up on these planes, they appear to be very well built, very comfortable, a bit slow for the HP/Class (due to wider cabin) and pretty well respected. But expensive to fix.

Looking for real advice. Other planes that would qualify would be a Socata TB9 or 10, Rockwell Commander, Possibly even a Grumman (no doors at all!). But most of those are way out of this price range. Clearly there are plenty of 172's in this price range, and even some 182's.

Timeline: Not in a hurry. Hope to pass the checkride this spring/early summer once good weather returns and I can fly a lot. Was looking to acquire something soon after. Have considered just getting a "beater" cherokee/172 just to really build some time. But keep reading to "buy your last plane first". Well I can't afford my LAST plane, but maybe my second plane first?
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I find most Cessnas in this price range are pretty beat up. There's a premium on Cessnas anyway due to their popularity as training planes. I actually like the baby Beech planes. Realistically, if you're flying a PA-28-160 now, there won't be much of a performance drop-off from where you are. There are plenty of C23s flying so I wouldn't think parts would be too hard to find if you know where to look. I know the pucks on the gear can be an expensive and idiosyncratic item but apart from that I've not heard any part-specific issues with the C23 that are too far out of the normal MX items.
 
There's nothing wrong with a Sundowner. I have many hours instructing in them.

They're nice to fly, roomy, well-built, & slow for their horsepower. With a 180hp, they cruise about the same as a 150hp 172. With the trailing landing gear it's almost impossible to make a bad landing.

Beech parts can be expensive but with Beechcraft quality there should be less need for parts.

Go fly it & see what you think.
 
George Mohr said:
Just curious, what's the wife's concern with one door (assuming she's a passenger, the door is on her side so...).
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She just doesn't "feel safe" with only one door. Especially with a passenger (daughter) in the back. I'm not a huge fan of the "piper crawl" myself, so I'd like to see if I can find something that checks all the boxes. This one is pretty local (couple hr drive) and looks pretty decent. OTOH, perhaps I shouldn't buy my "second/last plane first" and get something to fly that's cheap and I can build a ton of hours in. I.e. cheap cherokee or 172, or even 150/2.
 
I've had my sundowner since October 2009, love it. The Beech Aero Club is worth joining for info on any mouse. Pre-buy is critical and there are specific issues to look for, just like any C or P product.

My annuals have been very consistent usually running around $1500. Beech aero club just ran a great club purchase on shock disc (donuts) for landing gear.

My Bride and I both wanted two doors, I hated the piper roll to get in and out.

Feel free to private message me for any additional info. I didn't see your location but maybe we can hook you up with a sundowner owner for a flight.

FYI- I flight plan for 110 knots and love all the room.
 
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I've flown and instructed in Sundowners. I'd own one. Slower than the competition but not that much of a difference on longer trips. Good IFR platform for instrument training as well. And as mentioned, comfort and two doors.
 
While I cannot comment on the Sundowner itself, I can relate with the wife demands.
Mine requested the exact same thing: two doors. Plus no crawling onto wings and must be faster than the Cherokee we owned for a few years.
(so now we fly a nice C77R :) )
 
That sundowner with the captain america interior does look nice.
 
A C177 (probably not R) would also fit the bill. I've considered a few. Problem there is eveyone I talk to tells me to just look at 182's if you are considering the 177. Ugh. I'm horrible when it comes to deciding on cars, planes are even worse. Practically every single one needs to be considered in it's own right.
 
GeorgeC said:
That sundowner with the captain america interior does look nice.
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The scheme is a little over the top, but clearly someone cared for the plane quite a bit. And it at least appears to be well kept.
 
Sundowners are very nice, roomy and comfortable. I almost bought one in 2015 (not Captain America although that one was for sale then too). To me the speed wasn't enough of a factor to rule it out. They fly very nicely, but they are somewhat under powered. This has bitten some folks during approach and the results aren't pretty. You definitely want to keep your speed up. Too bad they never made a 200 hp Sundowner, although there is the 200 hp Musketeer Super but very few of those have 2 doors. The C177 is a nice plane but the landings are interesting and it likes to play porpoise if you aren't careful. I used to belong to a club that had a cardinal, an Archer and a Mooney and everyone agreed that the Cardinal was the hardest to land. Of the 3 planes, the Cardinal got the least amount of use. Good luck!
 
jbrinker,

I'd suggest you look at useful load and the ranges of the planes you are considering. You may be able to haul your family today with full fuel, but, what about luggage, where you want to fly any density altitude or mountain concerns. I looked at the Sundowner as well. I've heard Beach parts are expensive - but - cannot attest to it and will let others. With 2 doors and low wing your options are limited. But, you have the right approach, don't be in a hurry and do your research.

Good luck!
Dean
 
I was in the same boat. School plane kept on taking a dump.

Finicky wife.

Low wings only.

Had to be newer than her (she's an '83 model)

We found a great 67 B-19. Checked all the boxes except age. Would have bought it if it had passed the pre-buy.

Always loved the baby beeches but ended up getting a '93 TB-9. Loved the crap out of that plane, but the mission changed and she willingly consented to the Maule...

Don't count out the -9. Wide cabin, great visibility, slower than sin, but you'll be flying something that is well within it's useful life. Great type club over at Socata.org and a fun group of people.

When the Maule's paid off, I'm getting a TB-20 and a bigger hangar.


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jbrinker said:
The scheme is a little over the top, but clearly someone cared for the plane quite a bit. And it at least appears to be well kept.
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OP do a search on POA, there's at least one more thread on the Sundowner. Probably the same players (incl me) but you may find more good info.
 
jbrinker said:
A C177 (probably not R) would also fit the bill. I've considered a few. Problem there is eveyone I talk to tells me to just look at 182's if you are considering the 177. Ugh. I'm horrible when it comes to deciding on cars, planes are even worse. Practically every single one needs to be considered in it's own right.
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Be careful of the weight and balance in a C177. From your photo you look like you are close to a FAA standard person. If your wife is also, you shouldn't have a problem. But a couple of 200 pounders up front will likely put you beyond the W/B envelope. -Skip
 
Two doors are a big plus. I don't exactly have Jackie Chan flexibility and it's no fun for a lanky 6'3" guy to clamber over the PA-28's pax seat all the time.
Do you want to take longer trips? If so, I'd really consider the lack of speed, but for time-building and cruising around, I think a Sundowner would be great. And if you do take a longer trip, hey, it's more time to enjoy the wonder of flight! :D
 
With those requirements I say go for it, if well maintained. They are well priced. Just don't break too many parts!


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As already mentioned, you should also try a test flight in a Grumman, if possible. You can find decent Tigers in that price range, but probably with older avionics and original paint. They are around 25 kts faster with the same HP, fun to fly, with great in-flight visibility and superb control feel. That said, I have always been impressed with Beech quality and a little extra cabin space makes a big difference. Used to fly a Cessna 185 and the wife did grumble a bit about the downsize to the Tiger.
 
Share the listing?


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The Sundowner is a fine airplane, but I would also look into a Musketeer with a 180-200hp. It will outperform a Sundowner (also 180hp) as the Sundowner is (~150 lbs) heavier. The Sundowner is a little slower with a lower useful load (~800 lbs), than the Musketeer.

If you want a XC machine, that between the two, go for the Sundowner. It's about 5kts slower in cruise but the comfort will be a bit better. If you're wanting something to burn holes in the sky and get out of short strips, go for the Musketeer.

I also agree with the Grumman Tiger recommendation. Similar in performance and no "Piper crawl." Can't go wrong with any of these. :)
 
A nice two door airplane,slower than a piper,but can be a good time builder,if it was maintained properly.
 
I trained a guy for his IFR rating in his own Sundowner two years ago. I now regularly train three people, one in a Tiger, the other in a Traveller, and a third in a Cheetah. I don't have a preference for any particular model, as I'm more of a Cessna and Piper guy myself, but here's my take on the Sundowner vs. the Tiger:

The Sundowner was comfortable inside due to its cabin width. My main gripe with it was the lack of power output. I consistently felt like we were really slow compared to similarly-sized aircraft that Piper makes. Over time, though, this feeling went away, and it ended up being a great IFR training platform. The two guys who own it really enjoy it and take it on interstate trips fairly regularly. The other really neat thing about the Sundowner is that some are certified for aerobatics. It's kind of a novelty as far as modern 4-place trainers are concerned, but if you're ever interested in getting started in acrobatics, there is at least one person on this board who is a fan of the Sundowner for that purpose. (More on that https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/starter-aerobatic-airplane.58228/#post-1131854)

The Tiger is a bit narrower inside. The canopy is both a pro and a con. The pro is that you can open it partially in flight, and it will create a very comfortable vacuum inside the cabin that keeps airflow circulating well. The con is that the canopy also lets in a heck of a lot of sunlight. In New York this probably won't be a problem -- and if anything it may be a benefit during the winter -- but in Texas that sunlight can get the best of you. I would recommend getting some visors installed if this becomes a problem. The same can be said for the Cheetah and Traveller, the Tiger's two slower cousins, in which I also regularly provide primary and instrument training.

The nice thing about both of these models is that they are great IFR trainers, time builders, and cross country planes for flying with the family. What it will ultimately come down to is the pre-buy inspection, and a test flight to see which one you like better.

Finally, don't go crazy with any major avionics upgrades once you get the aircraft. If it's IFR certified with a NAV radio or two and a GPS (even an old one), that's all you need to get started. You'll be able to understand the benefits of different types of avionics (Garmin, Avidyne, Aspen, etc.) once you have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of IFR flying.
 
I've owned a B19 Sport for 20 years. It's the 150hp brother to the Sundowner. The Baby Beeches are great planes, very well built. If you find a well maintained plane look at it, ask for a test flight. Flown my Sport from the Gulf of Mexico, to Alaska to Chicago to Nevada and back to Alaska over the years. Slow but fun to fly.
 
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This place is going to the dogs. 26 posts...and nobody has yet recommended the OP buy a Bo. o_O :rolleyes:

I've owned only Pipers, but a "cheap" Piper or Cessna is almost guaranteed to cost you more over time than a well maintained, cared-for airplane, including a Sundowner.
 
Something to consider - most repairs I've read about are engine related and not airframe specific. So while Beech parts may be more expensive (1) they are (according to most) better constructed/rugged and (2) not your normal repair.

The lycoming parts you'll need more often cost the same whether going into a Sundowner, Skyhawk, Archer or Tiger.
 
jbrinker said:
Other planes that would qualify would be a Socata TB9 or 10, Rockwell Commander, Possibly even a Grumman (no doors at all!). But most of those are way out of this price range.
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I don't know about way out; you could get a fixer upper TB10 or Tiger in your price range. 180hp carries a premium, so if you can live with 160hp, you should be able to get a decent TB9 (comfort) or Cheetah (speed).
 
Be care if you decide to try out a C177. After experiencing the view and layout of the Cardinal, you'll never enjoy a 172 again.:)
 
There is a variant of the Musketeer, the Super III, that has fixed gear and 200 HP . The pilot side door was an option, so not every serial has both. Only 300 and change were made, so they're kinda rarish.

177s are cool, but like Mice, they need a good prepurchase to look for model specific gotchas. In Mice, it's the lower door sill area, and in 177s, its the top of the carry-thru spar.

Richman
 
George Mohr said:
If Grumman is in play, you can find many Travelers in the same price range as Cherokees. Make sure you get a Grumman-specific prebuy though, there's lots to watch for.

Just curious, what's the wife's concern with one door (assuming she's a passenger, the door is on her side so...).
Click to expand...

@texashikergal02 recently upgraded from a Traveler to a Tiger. So her very well kept Traveler might be available for its next owner.
 
asicer said:
Why is @SixPapaCharlie passing on it?
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Hard to explain. My financial situation is unexpectedly changing for the better in May.
There are a couple other things in play but also a friend convinced me to in his words "quit being a p***y about the 1 door deal"
Archer is now on the list but it has to have an HSI, Autopilot, GPS.. You know all those things that come to play when someone asks you to beta test their IFR training software. I love the Grummans but I am taking a step back and just being a Cirrus driver for the next couple months.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Hard to explain. My financial situation is unexpectedly changing for the better in May...
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You didn't expect to post something like this statement and get away with it, did you? :D

Okay folks, let's see who comes up with the best speculation as to what "unexpected change" 6PC is referring to. Here's my entry:

Stephen Spielberg has been secretly viewing 6PC's videos online, sees remarkable raw talent and has signed up Brian to shoot a six part epic Indiana Jones inspired adventure travelogue starring The Monkey. Brian plans to use his share of box office revenues to ditch the plastic parachute and buy a Gulfstream 650 (which origins mean he still gets a Grumman, sort of) even though it only has one door. ;)
 
Buy a Grumman. A Cheetah will be cheaper than a Tiger and with all of you being lightweights should do just fine. With a canopy you don't need silly doors.
 
GRG55 said:
You didn't expect to post something like this statement and get away with it, did you? :D

Okay folks, let's see who comes up with the best speculation as to what "unexpected change" 6PC is referring to. Here's my entry:

Stephen Spielberg has been secretly viewing 6PC's videos online, sees remarkable raw talent and has signed up Brian to shoot a six part epic Indiana Jones inspired adventure travelogue starring The Monkey. Brian plans to use his share of box office revenues to ditch the plastic parachute and buy a Gulfstream 650 (which origins mean he still gets a Grumman, sort of) even though it only has one door. ;)
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Haha. No. I changed jobs last year. I wasn't aware until just recently that the new gig has a bonus structure.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Haha. No. I changed jobs last year. I wasn't aware until just recently that the new gig has a bonus structure.
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Using the bonus for a G650 is still a great way to get the family over the one door jitters.
Just sayin' ;)
 
I'm more of a Global Express man myself.
 
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