Why isn't acro more popular?

F

falconkidding

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
784
Location
over there
Display Name
Display name:
Falcon Kidding
In my 2 years as a pilot i've never really met anyone who does it. Just curious why. Is it lack of plane access? Airsickness? Fear? Theres a few RV's on field and the one guy I talked to had never even aileron rolled it.:confused:

I've had 2 acro rides over the years one in a pitts (awesome) and an aerobat(more time climbing that anything)

So for me the only reason is plane access, no one rents anything nearby. Hopefully I can remedy that in the next year or so.

The acro scene seems even more dead than GA which makes me sad cause its what got me into flying and what will motivate me to keep doing it. After only 200 hours I'm just burnt out flying cessnas, its been 2 months since i've flown and honestly unless one of my friends wants to go up idk if i'll go up anytime soon.
 
It's not everyones cup of tea and its more expensive.
 
I would say a lack of good acro planes available is the biggest reason. Besides decathlons and the like and maybe some aerobats, there aren't too many other acro planes around.

I know I'm very excited to take a few acro flights in college. I think it's a good experience safety wise as well as being fun.
 
It hurts. At least the cool stuff does. It is expensive, look up the G(asp)PH on those things. And it is a wee bit more dangerous then flying for pancakes. Don't know how much the danger stops anyone I suspect it is mostly the first two things.
 
Look at the rental line at the nearest airports. How many aircraft on that line are aerobatic? Not many.

As a point of reference, in the whole Atlanta area (with 4 million+ residents, or >1% of the US population), there are (apparently) 3 aerobatic aircraft for rent. Two Decathlons and one C-152 Aerobat.

To further complicate things, all three aircraft are useful load challenged - with two people and parachutes, you may not be able to legally carry enough gas to taxi.

That makes it tough for a casual pilot to get any acro experience.

The most accessible acro aircraft are probably experimentals - the RV series. But you can't legally rent those.
 
The local school doesn't even have a plane available for a tail wheel endorsement. Availability is definitely the issue for me.
 
Getting past the stage where it makes you vomit isn't something most people are prone to go through. Basic gentle aerobatics still require repetitive pulls to 3G, and more advanced maneuvers are pretty damned violent. I used to get out of my buddy's Extra with bruises. We won't even get into looking like Satan for a while f you push negative too hard.

I think everybody should take a basic 5-10 hrs worth of training even if it's only 20 minute flights, because you really start to get to understand energy management in 3 dimensions, plus you know how the plane acts when you 'depart the envelope of controlled flight' and you know how to recover, and most critically, you learn how to walk the tight rope of controllability at the bottom of the energy envelope. That is the most critical knowledge you hold when the engine goes quiet and everything below is ugly, or invisible in IMC or night. Kinetic energy squares with doubling of speed, so if you're going to hit something, you want to hit it as slow as possible, but stil in control of how you hit.
 
It is sad that more pilots don't get to fly acro. I fly "gentleman's acro" almost every flight in the RV. 3.5G loops, big swoopy barrel rolls, split s's, horrible Cuban 8's (no inverted systems, so the half roll on the downline is ugly).

As Henning said, acro teaches you a lot about energy management. Also, it is (IMO) the truest experience of flight in 3 dimensions. One thing that really helps the acro experience is having an airplane that doesn't struggle mightily on the upline...
 
I don't buy the availability argument. We're pilots we can fly to the acro planes. I don't think the demand is there and many of those who've tried it decide the pain and expense outweighs the fun.
 
Phoenix said:
I don't buy the availability argument. We're pilots we can fly to the acro planes. I don't think the demand is there and many of those who've tried it decide the pain and expense outweighs the fun.
Click to expand...

Your average pilot rents. How many guys are going to rent a C-172 for $150/hr to fly an hour away to pay $200/hr for a checkout and acro training in a Decathlon or Aerobat? It can be done, but for most, it is a deal killer.

Even driving an extra hour to where an acro plane is available is a fail. How many guys are going to do that frequently enough to maintain their tailwheel (typically) and acro currency to an appropriate level?
 
kyleb said:
Your average pilot rents. How many guys are going to rent a C-172 for $150/hr to fly an hour away to pay $200/hr for a checkout and acro training in a Decathlon or Aerobat? It can be done, but for most, it is a deal killer.

Even driving an extra hour to where an acro plane is available is a fail. How many guys are going to do that frequently enough to maintain their tailwheel (typically) and acro currency to an appropriate level?
Click to expand...

Pffft. Driving an hour for sport is nothing. How far do surfers, skiers, kiteboarders, lots of other sports drive on any given day to chase what they are after? The desire ain't there, either it isn't fun or pilots are scared. Plus very little mutual appreciation, and I dunno if this is universal but from the small sample of acro pilots I've met there seems to be a disproportionate amount of jerks. That ain't scientific sampling so I'm not proclaiming it an absolute, or cause of anything. Pilots simply don't want to do acro.
 
It is availability for me; I've gone through some real hoops to get basic acro time. It's fun, the simple stuff isn't all that dramatic, and I'd like to do more. But there just aren't many pilots interested, so the demand isn't there. So I guess it's both.

Quite a few GA pilots aren't comfortable with steep turns or stalls, so acro is not on their wish list. Eventually, hole-boring becomes dull - I've been thinking more about experimentals, something that can handle basic stuff. . .
 
Phoenix said:
I don't buy the availability argument. We're pilots we can fly to the acro planes. I don't think the demand is there and many of those who've tried it decide the pain and expense outweighs the fun.
Click to expand...

The expense of flying an hour, flying an hour in an even more expensive plane, and flying home again an hour, is something most people these days in GA can't afford. Long gone are the days of the FBO $35 hr ancient 150 or Champ that nobody likes to fly, but gets used by people who can't afford more.
 
The big reason there aren't more airplanes for rent is good old insurance. The rates for rental tailwheels is ridiculous. A Decathalon with instructor is going to be in the $200 an hour range and a Pitts or Extra $300-400. When I started acro in the 70s a Super Decathalon was only a few bucks more an hour than a 172. I learned tailwheel in a brand new Great Lakes for $30 hr wet and Decathalons were $28. I have owned and flown a variety of aerobatic airplanes and most have small useful loads, are uncomfortable after more than an hour and short on range. I have almost always had an airplane with aerobatic capability available and will indulge in loop or roll every once in awhile. Too bad more pilots don't get some tailwheel/acro time as it really increases your stick and rudder skills. Don
 
yakdriver said:
The big reason there aren't more airplanes for rent is good old insurance. The rates for rental tailwheels is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Nobody rents tailwheel aircraft, and most affordable acro aircraft are tailwheel.

That said, I did an 8 lesson into to aero course between getting my PPL and IR. It was a blast.
 
I'd really like to get an RV that is acro capable, and just do some basic acro at some point. I know it would make me a better overall pilot. I am comfortable with slips, and stalls.
 
Anthony said:
I'd really like to get an RV that is acro capable, and just do some basic acro at some point. I know it would make me a better overall pilot. I am comfortable with slips, and stalls.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but we aren't comfortable with your slips and stalls!!!

:D
 
I would say that it's just plain lack of interest. Much the same as the reason most of us don't do donuts in our car in our driveway. I have a car and a plane to get me from point A to point B. I have no interest in using either one of them for any other purpose.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
It's not everyones cup of tea ...
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:


I love to fly, just the miracle of flight is enough for me. I don't need or want the adrenaline rush of acrobatics.

So, my flying is nice straight and level, gentle turns. Yanking and banking isn't an essential part of enjoying the miracle of flight.
 
There is an Aerobatic school 10 miles from my home at KRTS (Reno-Stead).

http://www.aerobaticcompany.com

I have about 8 hours in the Decathlon, but I would rather go somewhere rather than just bounce around above the Stead airport. I did spin training there and have done all sorts of aerobatic maneuvers. One issue is that you can't rent the plane solo so it does get expensive.
 
I liked it for the summer I was doing it. But the place where I was renting was over an hour away and it was somewhat expensive. Then I had other things going on in my life. It's probably like the story of why many people learn to fly then stop.
 
I will even go so far as to say that the aerobatic routines at air shows bore me. Watching some guy tumbling his plane around gets old after the second or third time you see it.

I don't know enough to know how precise he is, so I can't appreciate his skill. All I notice is he has a big enough motor to get out of whatever position he creates.
 
Some of us go place to place on boats rather than driving around in circles and jumping wakes in jetskis as well.
 
It's both ... desire and availability.

Let's face it, just being a GA pilot is rare. There are only what ... ~300,000 of us active pilots in the U.S.? That's all the active certified and medical passing pilots, GA and commercial.

I would loop or roll every time I fly if my plane were capable of it. I mean really capable of it. As it stands now, you have to buy an acro plane if you want to do acro. And most of them are not x-country comfortable airplanes. You end up having to own two airplanes. It's expensive as all get out....
 
JHW said:
Much the same as the reason most of us don't do donuts in our car in our driveway.
Click to expand...

Or a bunch of cars. One normally buys a vehicle that is the best compromise, same for a plane.
 
Why didnt I fly aerobatics? Because I flew SUVs for the first 20 years.
It was only after the kids were grown that I could get the aviation version of a Miata, an RV-8A. Now, I fly upside down on virtually every flight.

Why? Because I can! :)
 
I did some acro in college - my school's flying club had an A-152 Aerobat. I'm glad I got the instruction but I really wasn't into it because the high-G maneuvers made me sick.

I have an RV-8 now and I do aileron rolls in it every now and then, but that's it. I'd love to fly inverted like Jay but I don't have an inverted oil system.
 
I'd love to do a few hours of basic aerobatics just for the "edge of the envelope" experience and accelerated stalls/spins practice. In practice, it'd be fun to have an airplane to do some loops or aileron/barrel rolls with just enroute to the destination, but I don't have the desire to enter competitions or do moderate/advances aero with Hammerheads and tail slides. I think the "gentleman's aerobatics" mentioned earlier sounds great. I'd want to do it in the Deke or Citabria, I would barely fit side-by-side in a 152 as it is!

I suppose the utility bird in this instance would be something like a Yak 18T.
 
Last edited:
JoseCuervo said:
I will even go so far as to say that the aerobatic routines at air shows bore me. Watching some guy tumbling his plane around gets old after the second or third time you see it.

I don't know enough to know how precise he is, so I can't appreciate his skill. All I notice is he has a big enough motor to get out of whatever position he creates.
Click to expand...
I agree. I like the routine by the guy in the black twin beech. But all the little planes look the same to me. When that part of the oshkosh routine starts up, i find myself turning around and wandering around vintage & homebuilt camping checking out people's craftwork
 
Phoenix said:
I dunno if this is universal but from the small sample of acro pilots I've met there seems to be a disproportionate amount of jerks.
Click to expand...

I haven't noticed that and I'd bet I know just a few more acro pilots than you. You can remove "acro" and insert warbird, RV, Cirrus, jet, etc. and find others who would think the same thing. You'll find a small percentage of jerks no matter what activity in life you're into. Pilots are all pretty much the same in my experience. Anyone who thinks one group is special is probably basing this on isolated anecdotes, hearsay, or other biases...who knows. Humans are an emotional and judgmental bunch. ;)

Regarding why more pilots aren't into acro? Lots of reasons. Fear and lack of practicality pretty much eliminates 80-90% of the pilot population right away. Look at the average GA ramp and what's in the hangars. It's obvious most pilots place a high value on practicality, even if it's only perceived for lots of folks. Plenty of pilots can't afford two airplanes. And when a significant portion of the pilot population is uncomfortable with stalls and slips, and terrified of spins, fear is a real obstacle.

There are lots of misconceptions about safety, discomfort, and just generally what's it's all about. Unless you're a newbie, it's not even about adrenaline. Heck most non-acro folks seem to think all competition aerobatic sequences look like Sean Tucker's airshow routine. People seem to have this image of aerobatics as some sort of extreme sport that beats up your body, and requires the skills and fitness of a 20-something superhuman. You should see the gray hairs and beer bellies at aerobatic contests. ;) Acro doesn't "hurt" unless you are pushing a lot of negative G without building a tolerance for it. 99% of recreational aerobatic pilots don't even push any negative G. I've never gotten bruises - even at +9/-6G. It's all about acclimation and tolerance - even with light positive G, which many find uncomfortable at first. At first, lots of folks feel mild discomfort and wide-ranging nausea, but don't seem to pursue it long enough to get over it through exposure - which (getting over) WILL happen for most folks.

Regarding safety, I'd guess greater than 95% of aerobatic fatalities are attributable to training and judgment issues - not too much different from flying in general. Good equipment, judgment, and training is extremely likely to cause you to lead a long life and ultimately die of non-acro related causes.

Lack of exposure and insurance issues have already been mentioned. There are very few flight schools that even have tailwheel airplanes available, much less aerobatic airplanes. In the old days the modest Citabria was a common primary trainer, which also provided some acro intro for lots of student pilots.

There is cost, considering training, rental, or additional aircraft purchase prices. But it all comes down to priorities. Those who truly have the interest will find a way to do it.
 
Last edited:
If I could fit into an RV-3 I'd consider getting one to fly acro. But I don't think I can fold myself into one.
 
I'm 6'-4" and I flew an RV-3 for 5 years. I fit OK, but with no extra room...but at 6'-4" that's most airplanes. It can be made to work for tall folks, but if you are a "wide" person, that'll be the main issue. The single seat acro bipes (Pitts, Acro Sport) actually have more cockpit room.​
 
Bob Noel said:
:yeahthat:


I love to fly, just the miracle of flight is enough for me. I don't need or want the adrenaline rush of acrobatics.

So, my flying is nice straight and level, gentle turns. Yanking and banking isn't an essential part of enjoying the miracle of flight.
Click to expand...

It is an essential part of learning what an aircraft is capable of if needed, and gives you a modicum of skill at keeping the energy under control from extreme circumstances so you don't break the plane or or fly it out of control-ability. It's worthwhile at least taking a week end 4-5 hr course, heck add to it all and do it in a glider.
 
Hmm so seems like access is the big issue. Wonder how practical a non profit acro club would be. If that would lower cost enough to be more attractive.
Could you "rent" a RV7a if its part of a flying club? No scary tailwheel, low enough operating cost, sidexside for easy instruction and probably durable enough if you keep it to gentlemanly acro.
 
Bob Noel said:
I love to fly, just the miracle of flight is enough for me. I don't need or want the adrenaline rush of acrobatics.
Click to expand...

Adrenaline clouds judgment and motor skills, and disappears very quickly with experience. The uninitiated think it's about adrenaline. Aerobatic pilots know it's about complete aircraft control across the entire envelope. It's about the satisfaction in learning and mastering the techniques required the make the airplane do exactly what you want it to do. It's about the journey, and the never-ending learning and challenge, the problem solving, the mental exercise, and the complete focus that makes everything else in life irrelevant for those minutes.

If you just want some adrenaline, go bungee jumping or ride a roller coaster, or maybe take an aerobatic ride. Don't bother with aerobatic training. Do it for other reasons.
 
Last edited:
falconkidding said:
Hmm so seems like access is the big issue. Wonder how practical a non profit acro club would be. If that would lower cost enough to be more attractive.
Could you "rent" a RV7a if its part of a flying club? No scary tailwheel, low enough operating cost, sidexside for easy instruction and probably durable enough if you keep it to gentlemanly acro.
Click to expand...

There s certainly a way, there are a number of flying clubs built around experimental planes. If you have 4-5 interested people, that is the best way to go about it. However, if you use a Decathalon, now a commercial pilot can get authorized under PT.91 to sell acro rides, and CFI's instruction.
 
Last edited:
txflyer said:
You end up having to own two airplanes. It's expensive as all get out....
Click to expand...

Plenty of pilots could afford a dirt simple $20K O-320-powered Acro Sport bipe that could sit in the back corner of their hangar for some cheap fun...if they really wanted to. You don't need to buy a brand-new $500K Extra 330. I know plenty of pilots with two (or more) airplanes. It comes down to what you want, and how much you want it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top