Why is the CAP so understaffed?

[Velocity173]

One can never have too many flight suits. They’re invaluable in their practicality and I’ve never had a problem picking up the ladies when I wear one to the bar.

 

[Palmpilot]

It's unfortunate that most interaction with CAP is with little brats that are allowed to get away with it. I've seen it a handful of times in Colorado and they were rapidly "corrected" as was the senior member with them to allowed/told them to do it. As we tell potential members (the parents) each squadron has a different personality. Visit more than one, see if it works for you. It's not for everyone. Neither is flying in any form but we don't berate our friends if they don't want to come along for lunch. Or do we?

I doubt that it's "most" interaction. How the heck would one even gather that data?

 

[Pugs]

It's unfortunate that most interaction with CAP is with little brats that are allowed to get away with it. I've seen it a handful of times in Colorado and they were rapidly "corrected" as was the senior member with them to allowed/told them to do it. As we tell potential members (the parents) each squadron has a different personality. Visit more than one, see if it works for you. It's not for everyone. Neither is flying in any form but we don't berate our friends if they don't want to come along for lunch. Or do we?

True. Most orgs worth their salt self-correct.

 

[Velocity173]

I remember one time the CAP kids or JROTC were working our airshow. I was in uniform with a couple other friends walking the static area. Some of the kids were irate because we weren’t saluting them they walked by.

 

[MBDiagMan]

That sounds like a pretty bad squadron Humphries. They vary, but your description doesn’t surprise me. The squadron I attempted to involve myself with was not that bad, but they were much different than I expected. My military service was 1968 to 1971, so yeah, I was shocked at what I saw in some of the cadets and also with some of the adults. There was so much red tape and wasted time that I just gave up.

I hope that there are some good squadrons out there doing some good things.

 

[murphey]

I doubt that it's "most" interaction. How the heck would one even gather that data?

I was referring to the quantity of interaction posted here and other threads on POA.

 

[Palmpilot]

I remember one time the CAP kids or JROTC were working our airshow. I was in uniform with a couple other friends walking the static area. Some of the kids were irate because we weren’t saluting them they walked by.

When I joined CAP, I was taught that we were to salute members of the military when in uniform, but NOT to expect salutes from them, and certainly not to demand it! Unfortunately, there have been instances of folks not getting the message.

 

[eman1200]

Try working for a bank. Substituting for Privacy Act was Anti Money-Laundering, Anti Bribery and Corruption, Servicemember Relief Act, Workplace Violence Awareness, Ethics and Reporting (a sad, sad joke if you worked for [cough] certain banks), Unfair & Deceptive Practices (see previous note), and a few I am no doubt forgetting.

Every single year. And the last year I worked there - TWICE, because they changed their training system and, since the new courses were slightly different, well obviously we had to do all the new ones, too.

All of us, even the IT geeks.

Obligatory OT: I never joined CAP as a kid, and I've avoided it as an adult... since there's zero chance of ever flying a CAP plane, and I don't really want to teach drill & ceremonies to kids. I see 2 or 3 guys flying the CAP 182 pretty regularly, but I don't recall ever seeing any kids near the plane.

I think we may work for the same company

 

[DaleB]

I think we may work for the same company

I left last July. I, for one, don’t miss my stagecoach driving overlords one bit.

 

[IK04]

Zoom Bags--> Chick magnets.

 

[Velocity173]

When I joined CAP, I was taught that we were to salute members of the military when in uniform, but NOT to expect salutes from them, and certainly not to demand it! Unfortunately, there have been instances of folks not getting the message.

These were like Cadet Lts that were confused as to why we didn’t render a salute. We simply explained to them that their rank isn’t acknowledged by the military as far as requiring a salute. “All officers” doesn’t mean little kids playing officer. Not sure why that wasn’t covered in their training already.

 

[Albany Tom]

To be fair, people getting a power trip from a uniform that they may be misappropriating a bit isn't new or unique to CAP. From about 80 years ago:

 

[Zeldman]

I remember one time the CAP kids or JROTC were working our airshow. I was in uniform with a couple other friends walking the static area. Some of the kids were irate because we weren’t saluting them they walked by.

I was in the AFJROTC in public school, and one time we got to go to Bergstrom AFB for a tour, which included lunch at the enlisted mess. Myself and a friend were standing outside after eating. We both had 3 stripes on our sleeve and we were saluted by a couple of the regular enlisted AF guys... They did look at us kind of weird, but I am sure they thought it better to be safe than sorry...

 

[hindsight2020]

One can never have too many flight suits. They’re invaluable in their practicality
View attachment 106578

...And I'll be following you down to single-pilot ambo land here in half a decade or so my friend. 7/7s from the house, low-block, single-pilot, is where it's at for this guy. The potato sack is just a gratuitous bonus.

 

[Velocity173]

...And I'll be following you down to single-pilot ambo land here in half a decade or so my friend. 7/7s from the house, low-block, single-pilot, is where it's at for this guy. The potato sack is just a gratuitous bonus.

You keep saying that but I think deep down you’ve got “Delta Dreams.” No way you’re gonna pass up the big bucks in the majors to stay single pilot.

 

[hindsight2020]

You keep saying that but I think deep down you’ve got “Delta Dreams.” No way you’re gonna pass up the big bucks in the majors to stay single pilot.

*lulz* watch me. You're a funny Sensei. I expected better from a pro bono life coach. You just want to get me in trouble with the a-word mob on here again. I see you!

But since you insist on imputing my good character and gentleman's word in mixed company, I will have you know the wife just finished her BSN this month. So, we're straight on the post-mil money front, coach.

Btw you should hear what mover's up to these days. BL, there's more of us "leave money on the table" weirdos than you think.

 

[Velocity173]

*lulz* watch me. You're a funny Sensei. I expected better from a pro bono life coach. You just want to get me in trouble with the a-word mob on here again. I see you!

But since you insist on imputing my good character and gentleman's word in mixed company, I will have you know the wife just finished her BSN this month. So, we're straight on the post-mil money front, coach.

Btw you should hear what mover's up to these days. BL, there's more of us "leave money on the table" weirdos than you think.

Mover seems like he’s really into the police helo work. Not sure if that’s where he’s headed or not. Thought he’d be looking at a contract gig with ATAC or Draken. Speaking of, that should be right up your alley. Probably better money than EMS. Old friend of mine runs the CAS program at Kinston NC. Gave the dude his first GA ride in a PA28 and now he flys A-4s for a living!

https://www.kinston.com/story/busin...eady-feels-at-home-in-lenoir-county/42580323/

 

[Palmpilot]

These were like Cadet Lts that were confused as to why we didn’t render a salute. We simply explained to them that their rank isn’t acknowledged by the military as far as requiring a salute. “All officers” doesn’t mean little kids playing officer. Not sure why that wasn’t covered in their training already.

I've never had much involvement in the cadet program, but I don't think "playing officer" is a fair characterization. The training they receive has served as preparation for careers in the military for some of them, even leading to admission to the military academies in some cases.

 

[Palmpilot]

To be fair, people getting a power trip from a uniform that they may be misappropriating a bit isn't new or unique to CAP. From about 80 years ago:

View attachment 106582 View attachment 106583

Regarding "misappropriating" uniforms, CAP use of military-style uniforms is subject to the approval and guidance of the USAF through an organization called CAP-USAF. From the CAP uniform regulation (39-1):

2.2 Commander, CAP-USAF (CAP-USAF/CC). With the approval of Headquarters USAF, the CAP-USAF Commander prescribes the wear of the USAF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms. Also serves as an advisor to the National Uniform Committee or appoints a designee.​

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R_391_with_ICL_2101_Incorporated_5660EEB90E0DB.pdf

 

[TCABM]

.. imputing..

F*ing spell check. I know .mil didn’t teach you the difference between impugn and impute.

Haven’t checked on Mover since AFRC 86’d him. Going to the dude that bought the RAAF Hornets?

 

[Palmpilot]

I was in the AFJROTC in public school, and one time we got to go to Bergstrom AFB for a tour, which included lunch at the enlisted mess. Myself and a friend were standing outside after eating. We both had 3 stripes on our sleeve and we were saluted by a couple of the regular enlisted AF guys... They did look at us kind of weird, but I am sure they thought it better to be safe than sorry...

The training I received (30 years ago!) was that members of the military were allowed to salute us (but as I mentioned previously, not required to do so).

 

[murphey]

I've never had much involvement in the cadet program, but I don't think "playing officer" is a fair characterization. The training they receive has served as preparation for careers in the military for some of them, even leading to admission to the military academies in some cases.

One of graduating cadets this year received appoinments to all 5 academies! Chose the Air Force.

 

[bflynn]

I was in the AFJROTC in public school, and one time we got to go to Bergstrom AFB for a tour, which included lunch at the enlisted mess. Myself and a friend were standing outside after eating. We both had 3 stripes on our sleeve and we were saluted by a couple of the regular enlisted AF guys... They did look at us kind of weird, but I am sure they thought it better to be safe than sorry...

when I was stationed at Norfolk, NATO HQ for the US was right down the street and we saw all kinds of different uniforms. Best policy was to just salute because there were goobers there who would complain of you didn’t.

 

[Pugs]

One of graduating cadets this year received appoinments to all 5 academies! Chose the Air Force.

See! There is a future in trade schools.

(hell of an accomplishment really)

 

[Velocity173]

I've never had much involvement in the cadet program, but I don't think "playing officer" is a fair characterization. The training they receive has served as preparation for careers in the military for some of them, even leading to admission to the military academies in some cases.

Until they become adults and receive a commission or an appointment (warrant), that’s exactly what they’re doing. No doubt their training prepares them for a possible military career, but I’m not saluting a 12 year old kid because he/she has bars on their shoulder. That trivializes the point of the salute.

 

[DaleB]

When I was in Army JROTC, we were taught that our ranks extended up to - whatever it was, Col or something - which was just below an actual enlisted E1. Nobody ever expected a salute from anyone other than another JROTC cadet, and our battle scarred old SMAJ would have turned any one of us inside out had we acted like we did.

 

[Palmpilot]

Until they become adults and receive a commission or an appointment (warrant), that’s exactly what they’re doing. No doubt their training prepares them for a possible military career, but I’m not saluting a 12 year old kid because he/she has bars on their shoulder. That trivializes the point of the salute.

I'm not trying to get you to salute CAP members, but calling the CAP cadet program "playing officer" trivializes a program that the USAF and the military academies seem to take seriously.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm not trying to get you to salute CAP members, but calling the CAP cadet program "playing officer" trivializes a program that the USAF and the military academies seem to take seriously.

I’m not trivializing the training those programs provide and I’m sure the academies put some weight to CAP / JROTC applicants. Still doesn’t change the fact that they’re not military officers and neither are cadets at the academies. I wouldn’t salute them either.

It’s about following proper protocol and in this case, an enlisted member doesn’t render a salute to a cadet. Also, in this particular case, we explained to the cadets that as Marines and not wearing covers (flight line) we don’t salute.

Another thing, being that it was a public event, generally salutes aren’t exchanged. For instance, we weren’t saluting pilots that brought in static displays either.

 

[Albany Tom]

Regarding "misappropriating" uniforms, CAP use of military-style uniforms is subject to the approval and guidance of the USAF through an organization called CAP-USAF. From the CAP uniform regulation (39-1):

2.2 Commander, CAP-USAF (CAP-USAF/CC). With the approval of Headquarters USAF, the CAP-USAF Commander prescribes the wear of the USAF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms. Also serves as an advisor to the National Uniform Committee or appoints a designee.​

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R_391_with_ICL_2101_Incorporated_5660EEB90E0DB.pdf

Yeah, that's why I say "a bit". The soldiers in the two Bill Maudlin cartoons I posted above were absolutely entitled to wear the uniforms they were in. And they were absolutely US infantrymen. But Bill's point, and mine, is that the people who puff their chest out and claim entitlement are typically not the ones earning the respect that goes along with the uniform. They're not fake, but they're not shining examples of anything, either.

 

[Sundancer]

I (might) have some perspective - flew as a CAP and mission pilot for about 14 years, then dropped out 5 or 6 years ago. . .

1. Being goobers with ATC/unicom/etc. - my experience is the percentage is about the same as with the GA community. It's just that CAP aircraft have CAP call signs, so when one of us effed up, it kinda stuck in your mind.

2. As other folks said, the squadrons vary wildly. Many are goat ropes, some are pretty well organized. You gotta shop.

3. I'm former USAF - I wore the polo shirt with logo and gray slacks when I flew. Most of us former military guys tended away from the USAF uniforms, and wore the "corporate" options. Some Wings compel flight suits, so you can be stuck with that. If you're involvement is primarily as a pilot, 99% of the time the polo and slacks are all you need. If something more formal comes up, a blue blazer with a pocket insert works.

4. There are most definitively cliques in many/most wings. Often the same small group gets the plum flying, and the crumbs go to the rest. There are interesting missions on occasions - I flew as a "target" for F-16 intercepts, night flying out over the Atlantic, and in the DC area. Some units chase drones, etc. But that's rare stuff. ELT tracking has dried up with new tech, of course. A lot of wings got involved with Katrina support. But CAP is groping for validity now.

5. The bureaucracy is ultra-thick - and CAP HQ was a cesspool - one CAP national commander was dropped - lack of ethics is the nicest way to put it. In some wings it can take months, or longer, to get checkrides for a new pilot - we had an ATP CFII who tried for a year to get added as a checkpilot AFTER he'd been flying with us for a few years. It never moved through the morass and he walked away. The massive hassle to get an aircraft airborne may exceed what I experienced in the Air Force, or my family member deals with now as a Naval Aviator - not necessarily the paper, but the process.

6. Airplanes varied from excellent to "I'll never fly that pig again!" - MOSTLY they were about as well maintained as a reputable FBO. Often better, but sometimes far worse.

7. There are ALWAYS a few "wannabes" in a squadron - usually harmless, if noisy. I don't recall "screaming" or "yelling" - I think that description may be exaggerated by previous posters.

 

[Ghery]

I've only had two interactions with CAP as a whole and one with some CAP cadets.

The first was about 50 years ago at Ft. Lewis (yes, it was Ft. Lewis and NOT JBLM then). We had some CAP cadets with us when I was in Army ROTC. The only thing I remember about the cadets was one wetting his pants on the rifle range one day. Not much of a memory of them based on that.

The second has a SAR mission at KOLM a number of years ago. A couple of us from the local amateur radio club were asked to help with radio support. When the other ham found out I was a pilot he told me to run the radios because I spoke "pilot". He handled the paperwork. Worked for me. BTW, we did not find the missing airplane/pilot during our shift.

The other interaction was during one of the Olympia air shows several years ago. I was working the flight line as a volunteer when one of the CAP cadets came up to me and told me to move as there was a B-17 coming in and I was in the way. I looked at the cadet, pointed to my badge and told him to go away. That badge said I could be anywhere I wanted, any time I wanted. And I knew where that B-17 was going and was NOT in its way. I was not impressed.

Other than that, no direct interface with CAP, so I will stay out of the discussions on this thread.

 

[Palmpilot]

CAP cadets are not the only people who occasionally interact inappropriately with members of the public. One time, I was hired to play in an orchestra at an airshow for which CAP was not engaged to handle crowd control. I figured I would fly to the gig, which went all right, and I got a ride to the area where the crowd was.

The chairs that were set up for the orchestra were on the air side of a temporary barrier, but it would have been easy to pass through a gap in the barrier to where I was supposed to be. The crowd-contol person there, who was an adult, would not allow it. I had to walk all the way to a fairly remote parking area to get on a bus that had been arranged to transport orchestra members from the parking lot.

 

[bflynn]

Until they become adults and receive a commission or an appointment (warrant), that’s exactly what they’re doing. No doubt their training prepares them for a possible military career, but I’m not saluting a 12 year old kid because he/she has bars on their shoulder. That trivializes the point of the salute.

withholding a salute trivializes the point of a salute. It’s a respectful greeting and couldn’t we all do with more respect? I’m largely done saluting which is why I mostly wear the civilian uniform, but I have no problem saluting anyone. If it’s a cadet, I would greet them with something like “good afternoon cadet”.

 

[Iflydogs]

Hope this isn’t too much of a thread drift: after I bought my plane in the 90’s I considered joining CAP, attended one meeting but decided it wasn’t for me for many of the reasons cited here. But I did want to give back to the community so in addition to Young Eagles & Pilots n Paws I recently found Potomac Riverkeepers, they want people to report spills and garbage in the rivers, not just Potomac but also Shenandoah, and I am sure other rivers like the Susquehanna have their own keepers. They have an app you can post pics and upload the coordinates. So when I have some free time I will do a low flight, about 1000 agl, along a River for 1-2 hours and report what I find. It’s tricky following some of these rivers, lots of maneuvering, good practice and fun and useful to the community. Here is a link:
https://www.potomacriverkeepernetwork.org/

 

[Velocity173]

withholding a salute trivializes the point of a salute. It’s a respectful greeting and couldn’t we all do with more respect? I’m largely done saluting which is why I mostly wear the civilian uniform, but I have no problem saluting anyone. If it’s a cadet, I would greet them with something like “good afternoon cadet”.

We had no problems returning a salute in the proper setting either. Initiating it to a cadet officer is a whole other thing. As I stated, per policy we didn’t wear covers on the the flight line and as Marines, we don’t salute (rare exceptions) with covers removed. Even in the Army with less stringent customs of saluting without a cover, we never saluted on the flight line unless flying a VIP or on a “hero” mission. And we did return a greeting to the cadets.

Again, it’s about following proper protocols and not saluting like it’s just a wave or something.

https://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/Messages-Display/Article/886473/customs-and-traditions/

 

[Sundancer]

I spent a lot of time with CAP the first 14 years or so of this century - we had a pretty good squadron, just a few goobers, and probably half the adults were prior service. But time and tech (self locating ELTs for one) have kinda passed them by - there are things they can still do, good work to be done, but their bureaucracy is extremely thick and puts a lot of people off. I got plenty of flying time as a mission pilot, doing SAR stuff, and some interesting things like acting as a target for interceptors, etc. But it can be an ENOURMOUS time suck because their processes are a shambles. And their national level management won't win any prizes.

CAP pilots can get painted with a bad brush by GA because their call signs are easily recognized - no one knows who "Piper N123A" is when he busts a Bravo or uses the wrong runway - but "CAP 27B" sticks in everyone's head. My experience was CAP pilots are are about as proficient as GA pilots in general.

I left because the missions were drying up, and the "clique" around wing HQ hoarded the few that came up - and that's a common theme nation-wide; favored few get the meat, the rest get the bones. Like someone else said, most prior service guys just wore the polo shirt and gray slacks as their "uniform". You can go years and not need more than that.

 

[murphey]

I spent a lot of time with CAP the first 14 years or so of this century - we had a pretty good squadron, just a few goobers, and probably half the adults were prior service. But time and tech (self locating ELTs for one) have kinda passed them by - there are things they can still do, good work to be done, but their bureaucracy is extremely thick and puts a lot of people off. I got plenty of flying time as a mission pilot, doing SAR stuff, and some interesting things like acting as a target for interceptors, etc. But it can be an ENOURMOUS time suck because their processes are a shambles. And their national level management won't win any prizes.

CAP pilots can get painted with a bad brush by GA because their call signs are easily recognized - no one knows who "Piper N123A" is when he busts a Bravo or uses the wrong runway - but "CAP 27B" sticks in everyone's head. My experience was CAP pilots are are about as proficient as GA pilots in general.

I left because the missions were drying up, and the "clique" around wing HQ hoarded the few that came up - and that's a common theme nation-wide; favored few get the meat, the rest get the bones. Like someone else said, most prior service guys just wore the polo shirt and gray slacks as their "uniform". You can go years and not need more than that.

I did wear the corp navy blazer and grey slacks. Once. I was asked to attend a cybersecurity conference and talk about the CyberPatriot program. I had to go buy a white dress shirt, hadn’t had one for years.

 

[FlyingElvii]

Reading all of this makes me kinda sad...
Was a Cadet in the late 80's/early 90's. I credit CAP with being the main thing that kept me straight, away from drugs, and taught me to reach for higher goals, especially given what I came from. The basic skills and discipline I learned have served me well since.

I did things andhad opportunities that other kids my age could only dream of, flying in a C-130, directing F-4's on the ramp, (Not like they were actually following my direction!), visiting big Airports, Air Force bases and Universities, as well as a 100 other things. Many good memories (and some SAR memories I wish I could forget), many I was in with went on to some some really great things.

Perhaps it was the squadron I was in.
A good-sized Composite group that met at the Guard Heli facility at the small town local airport. The squadron specialized in Communications and SAR Ground Teams, at the time we could bring in a complete comms and ham setup, including power, towers, and vehicles, all aquired by the squadron, not Wing or HQ.

Same for the SAR team. Vehicles, Comms, access to a couple of flying club planes, even a bus set up as a barrack.

I realized later that we had a leadership crew that was very good at begging employers like Ford, Westinghouse, Heath, Chrysler, Harvester, Eli Lilly, etc, for surplus crap. At one time we were even offered a surplus radar trailer.

I think in the end, a good or bad squadron comes down to motivated leadership, everything else comes from that.

 

[Pinecone]

I am currently active in CAP. I am former military, flying for the MD ANG. I was a CAP Cadet many years ago. And a Senior member for a few years in the late 70s/early 80s.

As has been stated, each squadron in CAP is different. Remember, first and foremost, it is a volunteer organization. And like all volunteer organizations, there are goobers. And goobers make for not so great squadrons. And like any volunteer organization, you get out of it what you put into it. So if you check one squadron out and it is not a good fit, try another one.

My current squadron appreciates the skills and knowledge you bring from previous military AND civilian work. But you do have to jump through the hoops to learn how CAP does things. And like anything else, just because you spent XX years in the military did mean you were qualified to do every job in the military, you may not be automatically qualified to do a CAP job. No, it won't take a lot of time and training, but it does take some. I am currently the squadron Safety Officer. I have been a professional in occupational health and safety for close to 40 years. I had to do some studying and learning to do that job for CAP.

My squadron is a Composite Squadron, so we have both Cadets and Senior members. We are about 50/50 mix, with just over 30 of each. The cadets pretty much run their program with oversight from Senior members. And we get involved where it makes sense or is needed due to the complexity. But the Cadet program does teach and foster leadership skills

While it is based on the USAF, at the senior level, it is not the same. Very little saluting between Senior members. Rank and position are different entities. When I joined, my Squadron Commander was a 1st LT and we had a couple of LtCols in the squadron. The Cadets wear a uniform based on USAF uniform, and they do have military style grooming standards. For seniors, most wear the Corporate polo "uniform." That is a dark blue polo (long or short sleeve) with a CAP patch/crest. Most people have their name and a qualification badge (wings for pilots) embroidered on them. Gray pants (any), black shoes and black socks. We have a squadron baseball cap, but it is not worn much. There is a bit more of a uniform type outfit, based on the classic white aviator shirt with epaulets. But most members do not even own it. The Corporate uniforms do not require military grooming standards, but you must be presentable.

If you have not been around CAP for a while, it is a different organization.

For flying, MD wing has 16 aircraft. Mostly Cessna 182, most G1000 equipped. We have some C-172s, and one Gipps GA-8 Airvan. Other wings have Turbo 206s and there are a few Maules around. Aircraft are assigned to a squadron, but are not for that squadron's exclusive use. It just means it is based convenient to them. I can schedule any aircraft in the Wing that I am checked out it. You do have to do an initial checkride, then annually. To get checked out in additional aircraft requires an abbreviated check ride. And then, for your annual, you do it in the highest level aircraft. So, if you are checked out in the 172 and the 182, you just do your annual checkride in the 182.

When I contacted the squadron, their reaction to me being a pilot was, "Great we need more pilots to fly our airplane more." I was checked out about 2 months after I joined, and in about 10 months, have flown about 40 hours on CAPs funds (it would have been more, but I did a LOT of work travel over 4 months). And our squadron aircraft has been down more than up for that time period. I get proficiency flights, relocation/delivery flights, and I do Cadet Orientation Rides. I am working on Mission Pilot qualification.

Also, as a CAP pilot, you get free Fore Flight Military Performance package. And, in MD, after 3 years of active participation, you get a break on your State income taxes, like volunteer firemen.

 

[Witmo]

I'm retired Air Force and mostly tow gliders now. CAP uses our gliders for CAP cadet orientation flights on occasion as some of our glider club members are also CAP flyers. Always a pleasure to see young people getting motivated to take up flying. I looked into CAP after I retired but found it not to my liking as it reminded me too much of the paperwork involved with flying in the Air Force without the benefits of strapping on a g-suit and burning taxpayer-funded go-juice at insane speeds while getting paid for it.