Why I hate fly-ins...

Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

You guys should all stop being so arrogant and stop being such high heels.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I don't think it matters sweater or not one agrees with Tim's actions. He was just trying to follow the proper procedures I'm sure before he entered the patter he first flew loafer the field.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I'm tired of all you people having your panties in a wad.

I'm done!

(that and I'm out of clothing puns)
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Put a sock in it, son. (There, I got a movie quote in there too).
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Sac Arrow said:
I certainly wasn't going to broach the subject....
Click to expand...

No kneed to tie tack the OP to the wall over a failure to communicate. New men in the patter or on the ground can cause anyone to lock up.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Greebo said:
Foul - recycled pun. No, I will not cut you any slacks, either.
Click to expand...

Recycled? Rats and I thought I was being original.

Guess it's time to just button this one up.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Captain said:
I never called you or anyone a name.

What do you guys think professional pilots do? Sit around and read the AIM and FARs? They don't. We are not even issued said documents. We operate based on OpSpecs that the company and POI ensure are compliant with latest directives from the FAA.

I am not unique in this. No airline pilot reads that stuff unless he also flies GA on his own time.

Stop pretending to know what I should know until you have walked in my shoes. I'm happy to share what I know and how we operate and share experiences and such. But I grow tired of defending why I don't know some freqs AIM assignment or why I don't know some FAR by number. I knew that stuff when it applied to the flying I did. It doesn't now.

I stay out of conversations that I don't have knowledge or dont apply. I do, sometimes land at small fields with fly-ins going on and have to work my way into traffic too so I deemed this topic relevant.

I'm not angry or mad. I'm just trying to show another side of aviation.
Click to expand...
OK, Show me where any of your Op Specs states you can chatter on 123.45.

Other side of aviation? Somehow you think 123.45 is a GA specific issue. It isn't.

The AIM is not the only place this is found, and ignorance of a regulation is not an excuse either.

This issue is likely proliferation of an old wives tale on available frequencies, and it destroys the value of the frequency for those who legitimately follow the process to apply for and utilize it legally.

Less we head towards another "is this friend a jerk" threads, every frequency has an assignment, and just because I can turn a dial to a number doesn't mean I can talk on it.

If you are truly interested in educating yourself, the REGULATORY document is CFR Title 47 Telecommunication, Part 87 Aviation Services, and in this case, 123.45 is assigned here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iew=text;node=47:5.0.1.1.2.10;idno=47;cc=ecfr

All our other frequencies are in Part 87 also, if you are so inclined.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

ElPaso Pilot said:
OK, Show me where any of your Op Specs states you can chatter on 123.45.

Other side of aviation? Somehow you think 123.45 is a GA specific issue. It isn't.

The AIM is not the only place this is found, and ignorance of a regulation is not an excuse either.

This issue is likely proliferation of an old wives tale on available frequencies, and it destroys the value of the frequency for those who legitimately follow the process to apply for and utilize it legally.

Less we head towards another "is this friend a jerk" threads, every frequency has an assignment, and just because I can turn a dial to a number doesn't mean I can talk on it.

If you are truly interested in educating yourself, the REGULATORY document is CFR Title 47 Telecommunication, Part 87 Aviation Services, and in this case, 123.45 is assigned here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iew=text;node=47:5.0.1.1.2.10;idno=47;cc=ecfr

All our other frequencies are in Part 87 also, if you are so inclined.
Click to expand...

Ya got me convinced. Now if we could just get all those 'other' guys to see the light.

Say, can anyone remember which post number I supported chatting on 123.45? I can't remember.
 
Nothing to see here. I was going to follow suit, but ... Too late, rough day at office :eek:
 
Last edited:
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Captain said:
Ya got me convinced. Now if we could just get all those 'other' guys to see the light.
Click to expand...

Yup. Not using it when asked to and suggesting an alternate appropriate frequency would be a start.

Beats falling back on "everybody else does it, so it must be good to go, and besides, us airline pilots are too busy to actually to know which frequencies are legal to use, anyway, so we'll just pick that's easy to remember."

Captain said:
Say, can anyone remember which post number I supported chatting on 123.45? I can't remember.
Click to expand...

Kind of hard to pick out of here, but one could easily be mistaken to assume the general thought flows out of that train of thought somewhere. :wink2:

Captain said:
why can't you talk on 123.45?

Radio broke or did someone tell you that?

It's a very common chatter freq and seems like it would make a good pseudo ground freq too.

Legal or not I don't know, everybody I know uses it

I've never met anyone who had an objection to using it.

Every 121 and 135 and 141 and 91 outfit I've ever worked for the pilots used fingers as the back channel to pass info.

it appears we may have different background sets here too.

I have never offered support for or against 123.45, I'm just telling what everyone I've ever met has considered to be a chat line.

I've never heard anybody ever suggest otherwise until this thread came up.

When I say I have never heard anyone object to 123.45 as a chat line until now I'm just stating fact.

I also have not memorized every freq table in the AIM. Guess I'm a substandard pilot.

How hosed up are all those guys who actually use the coveted 123.45 freq? You must think they really suck.

Maybe people could get off their high horses and stop the implied disrespect for not knowing as much as they do.

Librairains..sheesh.

I never called you or anyone a name.

What do you guys think professional pilots do?

Sit around and read the AIM and FARs? They don't. We are not even issued said documents.

We operate based on OpSpecs that the company and POI ensure are compliant with latest directives from the FAA.

I am not unique in this. No airline pilot reads that stuff unless he also flies GA on his own time.

Stop pretending to know what I should know until you have walked in my shoes.

I grow tired of defending why I don't know some freqs AIM assignment or why I don't know some FAR by number. I knew that stuff when it applied to the flying I did. It doesn't now.

I'm just trying to show another side of aviation.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

While you guys chatter on any freq you like I'll just go land.

and be having a cool one watching you guys do 360s and go arounds.

NORDO all the way.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Your out of line el paso. Me asking a question is not support for or against.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Captain said:
Me asking a question is not support for or against.
Click to expand...

OK, I can buy that. But I'll disagree with the thought that it doesn't (or shouldn't) apply now.

And 123.45 still isn't in your Op Spec.

I knew that stuff when it applied to the flying I did. It doesn't now.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

First sentence: cool

Second sentence: no idea. Never said anything doesn't apply.

Third sentence: I never said it was. There are lots of things I do that aren't in the OpSpecs.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Ultimately this is not regulated in the AIM or CFR 14. It is regulated by the FCC and is indeed in their regulations. Being unfamiliar with the regulations of the FCC is not an excuse for violating them.

Now that you've been educated as to the correct and legal way to communicate air-to-air just go ahead and apply that knowledge and move on with life.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

jesse said:
Being unfamiliar with the regulations of the FCC is not an excuse for violating them.
Click to expand...

Well... in the case of pilots who are told they can legally use the transmitters in their airplanes, then they may be able to win on a defense using "ignorance of the law" - involving something known as a lack of "mens rea" (Latin for "guilty mind"; as far as the legal profession seems concerned, the Roman empire never collapsed.) See Supreme Court case of Liparota v. United States where the court found that a violation of a regulation through innocent ignorance (provided the facts can support it) can be considered a valid defense.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

gismo said:
Even the manufacturers have to apply for a station license with that frequency assigned to them.
Click to expand...

Interesting............ ya got a link to share so I can apply for the station license ? I have dug through several gov docs and can't find that requirement anywhere.......
\
Thanks in advance...

Ben
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Jim Logajan said:
Well... in the case of pilots who are told they can legally use the transmitters in their airplanes, then they may be able to win on a defense using "ignorance of the law" - involving something known as a lack of "mens rea" (Latin for "guilty mind"; as far as the legal profession seems concerned, the Roman empire never collapsed.) See Supreme Court case of Liparota v. United States where the court found that a violation of a regulation through innocent ignorance (provided the facts can support it) can be considered a valid defense.
Click to expand...

And we've just shot that deference to ****
 
It all made a lot more sense when airplanes used to all have radio station licenses and the FCC knew where to find you if they felt like sending a Dear Dummy letter.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

N801BH said:
Interesting............ ya got a link to share so I can apply for the station license ? I have dug through several gov docs and can't find that requirement anywhere.......
\
Thanks in advance...

Ben
Click to expand...

For 123.45? Here's the typical <onerous government> process:

§ 87.305 Frequency coordination.

(a)(1) Each application for a new station license, renewal or modification of an existing license concerning flight test frequencies, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, must be accompanied by a statement from a frequency advisory committee. The committee must comment on the frequencies requested or the proposed changes in the authorized station and the probable interference to existing stations. The committee must consider all stations operating on the frequencies requested or assigned within 320 km (200 mi) of the proposed area of operation and all prior coordinations and assignments on the proposed frequency(ies). The committee must also recommend frequencies resulting in the minimum interference. The Committee must coordinate in writing all requests for frequencies or proposed operating changes in the 1435–1535 MHz and 2310–2390 MHz bands with the responsible Government Area Frequency Coordinators listed in the NTIA “Manual of Regulations and Procedures for Federal Radio Frequency Management.” In addition, committee recommendations may include comments on other technical factors and may contain recommended restrictions which it believes should appear on the license.

(2) The frequency advisory committee must be organized to represent all persons who are eligible for non-Government radio flight test stations. A statement of organization service area and composition of the committee must be submitted to the Commission for approval. The functions of any advisory committee are purely advisory to the applicant and the Commission, and its recommendations are not binding upon either the applicant or the Commission.
Click to expand...

Might want to try these guys first, unless someone has a better link. http://www.aftrcc.org/pages/organization.php
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I go to fly-ins of aviators that I am comfortable represent well read, well trained, up to date operators. I avoid all others.

When the unwashed are going to be present, I drive if I must attend.

You all out there know who you are. "Dagger flight" type antics--> I just leave the scene. No good can come of showboating.

You can tell by just listening to the radio traffic, who's a doofus and who's NOT going to cause an accident. The doofi usually outnumber the congoscenti by 4:1.

Yes, you can contrue this as elitist. It's not. I am a survivalist when it comes to the air.

I drive from FonDuLac to OSH. I have been descended upon by Barons from overhead, landed in front of by those without the notam. Once in the last decade at SNF was enough for me.

The goal: I am to make a lifetime of operating and extracting utility from aircraft, without injuring anybody.
 
bbchien said:
I go to fly-ins of aviators that I am comfortable represent well read, well trained, up to date operators. I avoid all others.

When the unwashed are going to be present, I drive if I must attend.

You all out there know who you are. "Dagger flight" type antics--> I just leave the scene. No good can come of showboating.

You can tell by just listening to the radio traffic, who's a doofus and who's NOT going to cause an accident. The doofi usually outnumber the congoscenti by 4:1.

Yes, you can contrue this as elitist. It's not. I am a survivalist when it comes to the air.

I drive from FonDuLac to OSH. I have been descended upon by Barons from overhead, landed in front of by those without the notam. Once in the last decade at SNF was enough for me.

The goal: I am to make a lifetime of operating and extracting utility from aircraft, without injuring anybody.
Click to expand...

Well said. My thoughts exactly, although I would consider flying in as long as my schedule allowed me to arrive well before the riff-raff
 
This thread has drifted back on topic. Should it be clothed?
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Matthew said:
The whole TPA issue is another thing. I've been to plenty of airports that have no published TPA in the A/FD, so my default is +1000. But at some of those airports, local convention is +800 and the local CFIs tell that to their students. But it never gets put into the A/FD. Just a pet peeve of mine - local conventions are to do one thing, but no one else knows about it.

I just looked at the A/FD for M70 - I shows elevation at 273 but no TPA. I would have been at 1270+/- in the pattern there.
Click to expand...
The AFD doesn't list a TPA so you'd think the default 1000 AGL would be the right one. But for some reason Foreflight lists the TPA as 1000MSL.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

bbchien said:
I go to fly-ins of aviators that I am comfortable represent well read, well trained, up to date operators. I avoid all others.

When the unwashed are going to be present, I drive if I must attend.

You all out there know who you are. "Dagger flight" type antics--> I just leave the scene. No good can come of showboating.

You can tell by just listening to the radio traffic, who's a doofus and who's NOT going to cause an accident. The doofi usually outnumber the congoscenti by 4:1.

Yes, you can contrue this as elitist. It's not. I am a survivalist when it comes to the air.

I drive from FonDuLac to OSH. I have been descended upon by Barons from overhead, landed in front of by those without the notam. Once in the last decade at SNF was enough for me.

The goal: I am to make a lifetime of operating and extracting utility from aircraft, without injuring anybody.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

bbchien said:
I drive from FonDuLac to OSH. I have been descended upon by Barons from overhead, landed in front of by those without the notam. Once in the last decade at SNF was enough for me.

The goal: I am to make a lifetime of operating and extracting utility from aircraft, without injuring anybody.
Click to expand...

I've flown to Oshkosh every year for the last decade. The shenanigans I've seen are as nothing compared to the stuff I see daily on the road riding my motorbike.

There's nothing so bad at Oshkosh that I can't sandal it.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

steingar said:
I've flown to Oshkosh every year for the last decade.
There's nothing so bad at Oshkosh that I can't sandal it.
Click to expand...

When the FAA posts the notam isn't that pretty much a gotta follow thing?

IOWs can they violate you for not following the NOTAM?
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Tom-D said:
When the FAA posts the notam isn't that pretty much a gotta follow thing?

IOWs can they violate you for not following the NOTAM?
Click to expand...

I think if a NOTAM is issued, you are generally expected to follow suit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top