Why don’t you fly rotor wing?

Maxnr said:
BUT there are helo kit companies that claim their little bird is an LSA. Single seat and very useful load limited. Limited to one welter weight, 5 gallons of gas and a verbal message.
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That would be ultralight, not LSA. There are no LSA helicopters, the rules don't allow them.
 
Dana said:
That would be ultralight, not LSA.
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FYI: you'll find more of these small helicopters are E/AB than Part 103. However, I have seen some OEMs split hairs on the use of "ultralight" and "light-sport" when advertising these "lightweight" helicopters. So its always good to remind people there are no LSA helicopters and to use Part 103 vs ultralight when talking about these type helicopters especially since their price point generates a lot of interest from time to time.
 
IK04 said:
I am still disturbed by knowing I need something that looks like a runway in order to land an airplane.
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I call it forced landing anxiety. Shared by many dual rated rotary wing folks, probably. Rotary Wing, that has a good sound to it. More aerodynamic.
 
BladeSlap said:
So I’ve been here for a little while now, got to ask, for a short range burger hop wouldn’t a R22/44 be much more fun?

Plus we have much more options with some of the rules and landings, where we can put down if we need to, etc
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Oh and

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
EdFred said:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Oh and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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I guess it depends on how you define $$$$$$$$.... You can get into a E/AB helicopter with a factory finished kit for less than the cost of a Lycoming rebuilt engine or go the Part 103 route for $52K and it comes with floats.
 
Bell206 said:
I guess it depends on how you define $$$$$$$$.... You can get into a E/AB helicopter with a factory finished kit for less than the cost of a Lycoming rebuilt engine or go the Part 103 route for $52K and it comes with floats.
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Then there's the cost of obtaining a chopper rating...
 
Dana said:
Then there's the cost of obtaining a chopper rating...
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In my limited experience the majority of the people who get into helicopter E/ABs already have their PP and only need a rotor add-on. Which last I heard was around $7k-$10K depending on training provider/aircraft type. Also several H-E/AB kit providers sweeten the deal by offering cash to offset those training costs. Then again you could go the Part 103 route and no rating required, but I still would recommend to get the training regardless from a self-preservation POV. ;)
 
IK04 said:
I am still disturbed by knowing I need something that looks like a runway in order to land an airplane. In a helicopter, I can land just about anywhere with a good chance of survival (as long as I don't botch the autorotation and landing).

If I had my own helicopter, I would give intro rides to anyone who wanted one as long as they bought lunch.
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You still need an open area to autorotate to a landing though. You can't just drop straight down in autorotation and expect a soft (or even survivable) landing, right? Deadman's curve and all that...
 
BladeSlap said:
So I’ve been here for a little while now, got to ask, for a short range burger hop wouldn’t a R22/44 be much more fun?

Plus we have much more options with some of the rules and landings, where we can put down if we need to, etc
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As much as I love them: the fact that in case of an engine failure it will fall like a rock, is more than enough for me to stay away.
 
Hector Parra said:
As much as I love them: the fact that in case of an engine failure it will fall like a rock, is more than enough for me to stay away.
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But it won't fall like a rock, as mentioned previously. In fact, gyrocopters fly with a continuous rotor power failure.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
You can't just drop straight down in autorotation and expect a soft (or even survivable) landing, right?
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Wrong. I guess you never flew with a good helicopter pilot before. However, some helicopters auto better than others do to various reasons.
Hector Parra said:
the fact that in case of an engine failure it will fall like a rock,
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FYI: helicopters can autorotate which prevents the lawn dart mode.
 
1800-2000 fpm at 60-80 kts isn’t exactly falling like a rock. In a mountainous situation, you aren’t going through the trees at that speed or FPM either. You decel to arrest the descent and slow the speed. Then a cushion with collective before tree contact. At contact, you should have zero airspeed and the collective in your armpit. That won’t be soft but survivable? Sure.
 
Bell206 said:
Wrong. I guess you never flew with a good helicopter pilot before. However, some helicopters auto better than others do to various reasons.

FYI: helicopters can autorotate which prevents the lawn dart mode.
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I've ridden in many helicopters but rarely landed in them. How can you perform a vertical descent in autorotation and still flare? I guess using the collective? The rotorcraft I'm used to flying don't have a collective ;)
 
Bell206 said:
In my limited experience the majority of the people who get into helicopter E/ABs already have their PP and only need a rotor add-on. Which last I heard was around $7k-$10K depending on training provider/aircraft type. Also several H-E/AB kit providers sweeten the deal by offering cash to offset those training costs. Then again you could go the Part 103 route and no rating required, but I still would recommend to get the training regardless from a self-preservation POV. ;)
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Already holding a private or higher fixed wing certificate won't provide a ton of relief in the way of reduced hours to add helicopter privileges. For a private pilot add on you'll still need 20 hours dual and 10 hours solo at a minimum and I'd be curious to know how many people are actually doing it in the minimum time required. I'd guess it would cost between $10-15k in current times assuming you're renting a machine and paying an instructor the way many people do.

I agree on the recommendation for training, even if it technically isn't required. I don't feel there is much from fixed wing flying that transfers to helicopter use.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
How can you perform a vertical descent in autorotation and still flare?
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On the ones I've been on they would be at altitude with zero airspeed then enter auto while corkscrewing down over the intended landing point. Once close would pull in collective, flare to zero airspeed and settle down. Its similar to an auto landing in water with floats. Some helicopter designs provide for a sporty ride to the ground.
mondtster said:
I'd be curious to know how many people are actually doing it in the minimum time required
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On the E/AB side have seen them complete the dual portion in a Robbie or 269, then have the guy finish in his E/AB. Dont really know the details but was told it was a bit cheaper than someone going the full TC aircraft route.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
I've ridden in many helicopters but rarely landed in them. How can you perform a vertical descent in autorotation and still flare? I guess using the collective? The rotorcraft I'm used to flying don't have a collective ;)
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Autogyros are in a continuous state of autorotation, which requires inflow based on airspeed. Never flew one, but understand that you don't descend vertically in them and have the flight end well.

Flare is a helicopter maneuver using the cyclic control to increase the angle of attack of the rotor disk, mainly to gain rotor rpm near the bottom of an autorotation and slow forward groundspeed.

Vertical descent, power off, in a helicopter gets very sporty as shown in a Height-Velocity diagram below. You control blade pitch with the collective lever and cushion descent by increasing blade pitch very low above the ground. This uses up kinetic energy from the rpm and inertia of rotor disk.

You do "hovering autorotations" just using cushion from available rotor kinetic energy, applied carefully with the collective. In that sense they're just power off landings from a hover.

For more information, see the FAA Helicopter Flying Handbook, Chapter 11: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...helicopter_flying_handbook/media/hfh_ch11.pdf



Hvcurve-en.png
 
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Velocity173 said:
At contact, you should have zero airspeed and the collective in your armpit.
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Classic figure of speech--collective in your armpit means you and the machine have given it your all. Fates will do the rest.
 
BladeSlap said:
So I’ve been here for a little while now, got to ask, for a short range burger hop wouldn’t a R22/44 be much more fun?

Plus we have much more options with some of the rules and landings, where we can put down if we need to, etc
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What's the Cessna 150 equivalent in the rotor world?
 
Hector Parra said:
What's the Cessna 150 equivalent in the rotor world?
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FYI: You have to put into perspective. When the 150 was the go to trainer in its heyday, the go to helicopter trainers were the Bell 47 (H-13), Hughes 269 (TH-55), and Hiller 360 (OH-23). Its those models that made helicopters what it is today with most of those original stick wigglers learning at Fort Wolters. At one time there were over 1200 helicopters at Wolters training pilots. The R22s were late to the game in the late 70s along with the Piper Tomahawk and changed how training was done. However, the 150 still had conventional controls where the Robbies did not from a helicopter stand point and required additional training just to be able to fly them. Plus they were dirt cheap to operate. So a true 150 equivalent would be one the models listed above.
 
If I had your money I would burn mine.
 
Radar Contact said:
I’d rather auto into your mountain than hit it at 60-85 knots in a fixed wing single.
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Most single piston acft have much lower stall speeds… but I give you that: emergency landing in the mountains are not fun.
 
Tobias Göller said:
Most single piston acft have much lower stall speeds… but I give you that: emergency landing in the mountains are not fun.
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I was referencing the actual travelers and not training planes. Your Bonanza, Saratoga, Mooney, 210, etc class are all around 60ish. I just wagged a range encompassing that on the low end and what true airspeed would be at the top of the mountains. Easily up in the upper 70’s in summer (Rockies, Alps, etc).
 
MonkeyClaw said:
You still need an open area to autorotate to a landing though. You can't just drop straight down in autorotation and expect a soft (or even survivable) landing, right? Deadman's curve and all that...
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Question: Does the autogyro you fly have stick shake? Saw a couple videos that showed the cyclic grip vibrating considerably. That normal?
 
Zeldman said:
I can't believe this has not popped up yet...
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The poster child video of trying to fly a helicopter with no experience. Hence my recommendation above. The irony behind why this was filmed in the 1st place (before cell phone cameras) was to document the owners 1st training flight in his new helicopter. Unfortunately, the CFI was running very late and the owner figured he would get things warmed up and the rest is history. Still amazed that he or anyone else was not hurt during this adventure.
 
Bell206 said:
The poster child video of trying to fly a helicopter with no experience. Hence my recommendation above. The irony behind why this was filmed in the 1st place (before cell phone cameras) was to document the owners 1st training flight in his new helicopter. Unfortunately, the CFI was running very late and the owner figured he would get things warmed up and the rest is history. Still amazed that he or anyone else was not hurt during this adventure.
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Wonder if the guy tried again with a different helicopter?
 
Piperonca said:
Wonder if the guy tried again with a different helicopter?
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The story I heard back then was he gave up on the helicopter side as he had spent quite a few years saving up to buy the 269. He had a PP cert for airplanes and believe he continued that route but don't really remember the details.
 
Yeah, he combined solo and first lesson all at once. Flunked the check ride, too. At least now he is immortalized in the pantheon of Intrepid rotary wing aviators. And I emphasize Intrepid.
 
The 269/TH-55 was a very popular helicopter as noted earlier. I didn’t learn in it, but knew people who did. They said it was very twitchy. IK04 can tell us more no doubt.

Our guy might have ridden a Bell 47 a bit longer or maybe not.
 
There was a sickening crash in DFW today… and I’ve done photo work in that outfit’s helicopters. Seriously bummed.
 
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