Why Cheapskate Pilots Don't Like 406 ELTs

I can fit that category. i have ADS-B out, tracked anywhere I fly. I fly in flat land. I always have the cellphone if not more that one (with passengers) I have a 406 PLB. The only reason my airplane has an ELT because law requires it.
 
Useful information... I'm doomed when I fly over the mountains, I guess... Even the "little" Smoky Mountains....
 
Seems it would be cheaper - and more effective - to have a satellite SPOT type emergency beacon that can be "crash" activated. Something to alert the fine folks at the FAA to send help as opposed to waiting for someone to miss you and then look at your ADSB track.

And if you're in a non electrical non ADSB plane, you're probably an off the grid survivalist I'm not letting the Feds track me with their chips and contrails type anyway. :)
 
WDD said:
Seems it would be cheaper - and more effective - to have a satellite SPOT type emergency beacon that can be "crash" activated. Something to alert the fine folks at the FAA to send help as opposed to waiting for someone to miss you and then look at your ADSB track.
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I think that's the next step. An ELT based on the SPOT idea. But it would take more bandwidth to monitor all those airplanes, and the ELT operation would need to be "transparent" to the pilot; that is, totally automatic. It would come alive when the master is turned on and stay that way until it detected a normal landing and shutdown, even if the airplane's electrical system failed in flight. Even if the airplane burned or sank or was scattered across four acres of rocks, it would leave a track. The update would have to be a lot more frequent than every five minutes, too. Every ten seconds would be more like it.
 
bnt83 said:
I can fit that category. i have ADS-B out, tracked anywhere I fly. I fly in flat land. I always have the cellphone if not more that one (with passengers) I have a 406 PLB. The only reason my airplane has an ELT because law requires it.
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Same here.

Paul B does a great job on his videos.

I was considering updating the Archer to add a 406ELT, but after seeing this video I'll save my money and continue to use ADS-B, Cell phones, a 406 PLB, and flight following.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I think that's the next step. An ELT based on the SPOT idea. But it would take more bandwidth to monitor all those airplanes, and the ELT operation would need to be "transparent" to the pilot; that is, totally automatic. It would come alive when the master is turned on and stay that way until it detected a normal landing and shutdown, even if the airplane's electrical system failed in flight. Even if the airplane burned or sank or was scattered across four acres of rocks, it would leave a track. The update would have to be a lot more frequent than every five minutes, too. Every ten seconds would be more like it.
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A possible hangup with the SPOT. I'm in the aerial mapping business, high accuracy differential GPS that isn't all too much different from WAAS etc. When SPOT "transmits" or whatever you want to call it, it jams up GPS reception for a couple seconds. We had to ban them from our planes during acquisition projects because even those blips every 5 minutes were critical. If a SPOT was to be firing much more frequently it could get hairy shooting a GPS approach in the soup. Don't know if there's a way they could shield it or whatever, that's a challenge for the engineers and definitely would be an issue for the FAA.
 
While handheld PLB is a great idea, it does nothing if the person is unconscious, doesn’t mean the 406 will not be damaged in the crash, but it’s a safety net for sure
 
In previous posts about the utility of installing a 406 ELT, I've asked if anyone can cite an example of a single life saved because of the technology. Yes, I acknowledge that if the thing actually works it allows rescuers to find a crash site sooner that they otherwise would have. But is there a case of someone with potentially fatal traumatic injuries who was rescued and lived because of a 406 ELT signal and no other information, like a distress call, ATC action, witness to the crash etc? Would like to hear about it. So far I haven't.
Jon
 
WannFly said:
While handheld PLB is a great idea, it does nothing if the person is unconscious, doesn’t mean the 406 will not be damaged in the crash, but it’s a safety net for sure
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If the person is not unconscious before the crash, he should activate the PLB then, while airborne. Same goes for an ELT, which may or may not actually activate.
Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
In previous posts about the utility of installing a 406 ELT, I've asked if anyone can cite an example of a single life saved because of the technology. Yes, I acknowledge that if the thing actually works it allows rescuers to find a crash site sooner that they otherwise would have. But is there a case of someone with potentially fatal traumatic injuries who was rescued and lived because of a 406 ELT signal and no other information, like a distress call, ATC action, witness to the crash etc? Would like to hear about it. So far I haven't.
Jon
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I think the video indicated a save in Alaska, perhaps others.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
If the person is not unconscious before the crash, he should activate the PLB then, while airborne. Same goes for an ELT, which may or may not actually activate.
Jon
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I agree, however flipping a switch in the panel is lot easier than taking the PLB out, fumbling with unlatching the antenna and activating it all while trying to successfully perform off airport landing. You can turn that switch on right before touchdown (of course it requires that presence of mind in a highly stressful situation).

Full disclosure, I carry a PLB in a pouch under copilot seat, I also have a 406 that is connected to my panel mount nav. May be it’s all for nothing and complete waste of money, but I don’t want to find out first hand that I needed it and it’s not there cuz I wanted to save 1 AMU.
 
I am having trouble imagining where the handheld PLB ever beats the on-board 406 ELT in a crash scenario. I think they 'tie' like 90% of the time. They're not even priced very differently from one another.

The other thread mentioned maintenance difficulties. I've been fortunate not to have those.
 
WDD said:
Seems it would be cheaper - and more effective - to have a satellite SPOT type emergency beacon that can be "crash" activated.
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I really don’t need, nor want, the FAA alerted every time I land the airplane.
 
CharlieD3 said:
I think the video indicated a save in Alaska, perhaps others.
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IIRC he said it help rescuers find 2 crash sites, but failed to say if anyone was saved. If I lived in Alaska or desolate western areas I would have a PLB.
It would be nice if PLBs had batteries that could be user replaced, instead it costs something like $150 to send them back to manufacturer to change them.
 
meh....most places have cell phone coverage. Even if they don't, the CAP, can find you with cell phone triangulation. I never worried. They'd find my body one way or another. I'd not count on either to save you.
 
I think Paul made some good points in his video, but I have no regret on putting the 406b ELT in my airplane as soon as we bought it.
 
WannFly said:
While handheld PLB is a great idea, it does nothing if the person is unconscious, doesn’t mean the 406 will not be damaged in the crash, but it’s a safety net for sure
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I just dont see the reason for the mandate. If someone thinks they are useful, fine. Buy one. I just dont think that they are too useful for my type of flying.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I just dont see the reason for the mandate. If someone thinks they are useful, fine. Buy one. I just dont think that they are too useful for my type of flying.
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A senator disappeared and they never found him. Senators only have one tool, so presto, mandate.
 
Salty said:
A senator disappeared and they never found him.
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FYI: there was actually a ELT requirement prior to the congressional mandate but after that House Majority Leader and another congressman disappeared in Alaska the US House made a law requiring everybody to have an ELT. The ironic thing was within Alaska they had just passed an ELT regulation requiring "remote" flights to have one. This history comes up occasionally in civil suits when an ELT manufacturer is included in the defendant group.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
meh....most places have cell phone coverage. Even if they don't, the CAP, can find you with cell phone triangulation. I never worried. They'd find my body one way or another. I'd not count on either to save you.
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Most places? In Maryland, maybe. Not all of us live or fly in densely-populated areas. There are millions of square miles out here with no coverage at all, and lots of places with coverage that vanishes when you get behind a hill.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Most places? In Maryland, maybe. Not all of us live or fly in densely-populated areas. There are millions of square miles out here with no coverage at all, and lots of places with coverage that vanishes when you get behind a hill.
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Dan...if they need to find you...they can find you with a cell phone. You do not need to be in an active cell.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
If the person is not unconscious before the crash, he should activate the PLB then, while airborne. Same goes for an ELT, which may or may not actually activate.
Jon
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That makes too much sense.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Most places? In Maryland, maybe. Not all of us live or fly in densely-populated areas. There are millions of square miles out here with no coverage at all, and lots of places with coverage that vanishes when you get behind a hill.
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Plenty of land in Garrett County, MD with no cell coverage. Sometimes it's quite nice actually.
 
Todd82 said:
Plenty of land in Garrett County, MD with no cell coverage. Sometimes it's quite nice actually.
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Search and rescue doesn't need cell coverage to find a cell phone.

However, they do need a reason to search, so there's also that.
 
asicer said:
Search and rescue doesn't need cell coverage to find a cell phone.

However, they do need a reason to search, so there's also that.
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Oh I know, I was just commenting on the no place in MD without coverage aspect. And out of all of MD, Garrett would be the last place I'd want to have to put one down too. Nothing but tree covered hills.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Dan...if they need to find you...they can find you with a cell phone. You do not need to be in an active cell.
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But the cell phone needs to have survived, and the battery still have a charge.
 
Seems to me like ELT's should have integral antennas. You hit with any G's and the antenna / connection is pretty likely to get ripped off.
 
Salty said:
Seems to me like ELT's should have integral antennas. You hit with any G's and the antenna / connection is pretty likely to get ripped off.
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some have internal GPS, but with internal antenna comes problem of interference and unable to communicate with mother ship inside a AL spam can
 
Morgan3820 said:
I just dont see the reason for the mandate. If someone thinks they are useful, fine. Buy one. I just dont think that they are too useful for my type of flying.
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There's lots of people who think getting a class B clearance is not useful either, so I don't think that's the standard we judge this on.

That's fine for you flying solo, but the FAA is protecting your passengers against your choice.
 
WannFly said:
While handheld PLB is a great idea, it does nothing if the person is unconscious, doesn’t mean the 406 will not be damaged in the crash, but it’s a safety net for sure
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He covered that.

Looked thru the data for the quintessential “trapped in the wreckage and can’t reach the ELT but survived” crashes and they’re just not there.

I’m sure they happen in such tiny numbers it’s almost as if it just isn’t your day if it happens to you, because then you’re into the atrocious failure to activate rates and antenna destruction that happens when you ball it up juuuuust enough to barely survive it.

For statistical purposes you either survived and a PLB in a fishing vest will easily save ya, or you’re dead. There’s not much in between and then the ELT doesn’t work way more than half the time.

Nice 406 ELT with GPS feed as a backup, yeah. Especially over inhospitable terrain. But something else as primary. Preferably something without only canned messages that you can actually communicate through.

And ADS-B and the cell phone on no matter what FCC thinks of it and something to light the forest on fire with — that always gets attention. Ha.
 
schmookeeg said:
... not even priced very differently from one another.
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Not even close if you properly tie the 406 to the panel GPS. Certain manufacturers will charge as much for a PLB as just their gold plated cable to do that.

406 without GPS feed is as hard or harder to locate as 121.5 with a small accuracy bump in the initial enormous search area as multiple sat passes slowly refine that. Minutes vs many hours.

I’d all three search crew has is 121.5 receivers and direction finders, the weak ass 121.5 blip from a 406 is orders of magnitude harder to find. And many do only have 121.5 for the ground work.

The best stuff for finding a 406 without GPS is laptop and Doppler based so its fast to draw a lubber line.... right to the terrain reflection. LOL.

406 without GPS feed, truly is garbage.

PLB without GPS, identical problem. But many include it for a lot less money than an aviation panel mount GPS feed.
 
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