Why Can't I Understand Holding Patterns.....@#$%!

[Kritchlow]

Sure.

For me, I read the OP's situation as
1) There is a fix on radial 110
2) The fix is 15 miles from the VOR
3) Hold SE of that

To keep SE of that fix, you'd come from the SE and be on a 290 heading at the point you hit the fix and entered the hold.
You'd have to turn left (if you turned right, you'd then be NE of the fix).

Draw a north-south & east-west axis at the fix. Both left and right turns will still fall in the same quadrant.

 

[Kritchlow]

you don’t really need to know the direction of the turn since right is standard. You only need to be told if they want nonstandard left turns.

brian

Well yes, but you still need to know the direction of the turn. What you’re talking about is how they communicate the direction of the turn.

 

[Tantalum]

Holding pattern ENTRIES are non-regulatory (and not what the OP has problems with.)

thanks for the clarification, and yes - my post was incomplete. I struggled with the mental gymnastics (it seems like) of parallel, direct, teardrop. Eventually I just had to memorize it and visualize it in my head. The index-finger-over-CDI thing didn't work for me

this looks absolutely absurd to me

 

[Tantalum]

how 'bout a SID/ODP or two (big time neglected in Instrument training)??!

YES!!! Departure procedures are totally neglected, the literal advice I've heard given is "just write 'no DP' in your plan when you fie" - F that.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Departure procedures are totally neglected, the literal advice I've heard given is "just write 'no DP' in your plan when you fie".

One of the best ways to not get a clearance.

 

[MauleSkinner]

thanks for the clarification, and yes - my post was incomplete. I struggled with the mental gymnastics (it seems like) of parallel, direct, teardrop. Eventually I just had to memorize it and visualize it in my head. The index-finger-over-CDI thing didn't work for me

this looks absolutely absurd to me
View attachment 113072

“Teardrop, unless it’s obviously direct.”

 

[Tantalum]

no one said holds are more important than learning to fly in the clouds

how much actual do you get in training vs in real life? how many actual holds do people get in practice in the real life? I got "lucky" and got about 5.5 actual IMC in training. Some people, especially who attend schools here or in AZ get all of "0" actual in training. Psychologically that's the biggest issue for many is the IMC factor

we all learn them [holds and entries and pass our checkrides] but the focus on entry procedures is inordinate. It's like when we were told growing up to be on the lookout for quicksand and what to do if you get stuck in quicksand. To date I've not hand a "near quicksand death experience" nor have I had to "stop drop and roll" - I thought spontaneous human combustion or being trapped in burning buildings would be a bigger issue in my adult life

Similar, the two times I was given a hold in 2 decades of flying you figure it out and fly it, it's ultimately not THAT complicated, fly the racetrack and enter it correctly based on where you're coming from. But the fact that we still see accidents and people dying from botched approaches or LOC IMC tells me people need more time in the clouds and less playing with their fingers on CDIs

@Kitch ignore if you want, or don't. There are also people on this forum who think Moonies are large comfortable airplanes perfectly suitable for flying with four adults, golf bags, and a few labs

 

[eman1200]

....There are also people on this forum who think Moonies are large comfortable airplanes perfectly suitable for flying with four adults, golf bags, and a few labs

......if you stagger the seats

 

[luvflyin]

All you need to know is they are going to give you a fix and the "inbound" leg. with the possiblity of non-standard turns. or designated leg length.

for your example
Fix = 110 Radial off the ABC VOR (the is the fix)
Inbound Leg = 110 Radial on the SE side of the fix.

So draw a point (the fix) then draw the line (110 Radial) then put an arrow on the inbound side pointing to the fix (SE side of the 110 Radial), then when cross the fix make a turn (right is standard since you didn't specify) Fly outbound then turn back to you inbound leg

View attachment 113055

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

You could also get hold Northwest of the ABC 110 Radial 15 Mile Fix on the ABC 110 Radial. The OP’s question is about ‘where’ the pattern is.

 

[brcase]

Hold SE

HOLD SE left turns

Hold NW

Hold NW left turns

Exacty, I was going to draw something similar. But you beat me to it and did a better job than I would have.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[eman1200]

Exacty, I was going to draw something similar. But you beat me to it and did a better job than I would have.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Garmin pilot scratch pad and a coke fingernail at its finest!

 

[midlifeflyer]

One of the best ways to not get a clearance.

Or a very, very long one as they give you all the details you could have used the chart for.

I had that happen to a friend years ago. He called me very upset because the put No SIDs in the remarks and ATC had him take the standard departure down course by course and waypoint by waypoint. I just laughed.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Or a very, very long one as they give you all the details you could have used the chart for.

I had that happen to a friend years ago. He called me very upset because the put No SIDs in the remarks and ATC had him take the standard departure down course by course and waypoint by waypoint. I just laughed.

Bottom line, if you think your instructor isn’t properly addressing SIDs/ODPs, find one who will.

 

[luvflyin]

Thank you for all of the great responses.... and of course a question always leads to another question.....

Holding @ the 15 DME gives you 4 options of how the racetrack is flown. If you were to hold @ the ABC VOR on the 110 radial there is only 2 options L or R... correct ?

There is always only two options for direction of turns. There nothing other than left or right. In the example of holding at the VOR on the 110 radial there is only one option for which direction from the holding fix the holding pattern is. That is Southeast. In your original example where the Holding Fix is the 110 radial 15 DME, and the instructions are to hold on the 110 Radial, there are two options that ATC could give you. Southeast and Northwest.

 

[luvflyin]

Radial is irrelevant; the hold is anchored by a point in space, the fix.

It's not irrelevant if you were told to hold on the radial. What to hold 'on' is a required element of holding instructions. See c. below.

4−6−4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS
When issuing holding instructions, specify:
a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.
b. Holding fix or waypoint.
NOTE−
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning of the transmission as the clearance limit.
c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway, or route on which the aircraft is to hold.
d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot requests it or you consider it necessary.
e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you consider it necessary.

 

[Rgbeard]

I don't do hold entries any more.

I get the plane to the hold point, and back it into position.

 

[WDD]

No. @eman1200's drawings are correct.

"Hold southeast" always and only means the inbound leg is located to the southeast of the holding fix. This is the initial picture, no matter what else the holding clearance says.

I have to disagree. My updated edited post and drawings that I changed to now match EMan's drawing are indeed correct.

 

[eman1200]

I have to disagree. My updated edited post and drawings that I changed to now match EMan's drawing are indeed correct.

that is solid work!

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have to disagree. My updated edited post and drawings that I changed to now match EMan's drawing are indeed correct.

Feel free to disagree but I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about if this is the drawing you are talking about. In the drawing, you are holding southeast and the inbound course is southeast of the fix

 

[write-stuff]

YES!!! Departure procedures are totally neglected, the literal advice I've heard given is "just write 'no DP' in your plan when you fie" - F that.

Gold Seal covers them. STARs, too.

 

[WDD]

Feel free to disagree but I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about if this is the drawing you are talking about. In the drawing, you are holding southeast and the inbound course is southeast of the fix

I disagree with your disagree to my disagreement about the original disagreement.

(I'm trolling - I changed my answer from yesterday and added a changed drawing. I was not correct, you were. You can hold north or south of the radial / turn left or right.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

I disagree with your disagree to my disagreement about the original disagreement.

(I'm trolling - I changed my answer from yesterday and added a changed drawing. I was not correct, you were. You can hold north or south of the radial / turn left or right.)

Joking aside, be careful of that. I've heard people seriously argue that "northeast" means right turns and "southwest" means left turns because that where you will be going when you make the outbound turn at the fix. I tink it's just part of the terrible way we overcomplicate this simple maneuver in training.

 

[Kritchlow]

Joking aside, be careful of that. I've heard people seriously argue that "northeast" means right turns and "southwest" means left turns because that where you will be going when you make the outbound turn at the fix. I tink it's just part of the terrible way we overcomplicate this simple maneuver in training.
View attachment 113101

Yup. Too many people think hold SW means SW of the radial, not the fix.
The drawing with the N-S & E-W axis show the point perfectly.

 

[woodchucker]

Or a very, very long one as they give you all the details you could have used the chart for.

I had that happen to a friend years ago. He called me very upset because the put No SIDs in the remarks and ATC had him take the standard departure down course by course and waypoint by waypoint. I just laughed.

Was just watching one of the Pilot Edge videos the other day and he mentioned to expect that as well if you are hoping for radar vectors by noting “no SIDs”.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Was just watching one of the Pilot Edge videos the other day and he mentioned to expect that as well if you are hoping for radar vectors by noting “no SIDs”.

“Hope” is a terrible flight planning strategy.

 

[WDD]

There are also people on this forum who think Moonies are large comfortable airplanes perfectly suitable for flying with four adults, golf bags, and a few labs

For some people the Mooney fits just fine.

(Just poking the bear here. FWIW, I've never even been in a Mooney).