Why Can't I Understand Holding Patterns.....@#$%!

Kitch

Kitch

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
391
Location
SE Mass
Display Name
Display name:
Kitch
Can someone post a link or something to help me understand "where" the holding pattern "is" on unpublished holding.

Entries are no problem I just can't get my f@ckin head to stop spinning with the old...

Hold SE of the ABC VOR 110 radial 15 DME 1 min legs.... I really can't be as dumb as I feel
 
I guess it would be easier to provide a good reference if we knew what you don’t understand about it.
 
Rgbeard said:
Don't underestimate yourself! You might be!!

(sorry, I had to do that - it was low-hanging fruit. Someone helpful will be along)
Click to expand...

I laughed too hard at that!!! At least we got it out of the way early.
 
The holding pattern is based on a fix and the inbound leg to that fix. Standard turns are right. They'll specify left if that's what they want. That's everything you need to know to define the holding pattern.

Draw the fix. Drawn the inbound leg. Then draw the circuit with lift/right turns.
 
write-stuff said:
The holding pattern is based on a fix and the inbound leg to that fix. Standard turns are right. They'll specify left if that's what they want. That's everything you need to know to define the holding pattern.

Draw the fix. Drawn the inbound leg. Then draw the circuit with lift/right turns.
Click to expand...

Gold Seal has a great video on holds/entries. It's been years since I watched it but it was very helpful to me early on. maybe Russ can dig it up or maybe my google-fu will surprise me.
 
All you need to know is they are going to give you a fix and the "inbound" leg. with the possiblity of non-standard turns. or designated leg length.

for your example
Fix = 110 Radial off the ABC VOR (the is the fix)
Inbound Leg = 110 Radial on the SE side of the fix.

So draw a point (the fix) then draw the line (110 Radial) then put an arrow on the inbound side pointing to the fix (SE side of the 110 Radial), then when cross the fix make a turn (right is standard since you didn't specify) Fly outbound then turn back to you inbound leg

upload_2022-12-14_15-33-26.png

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
eman1200 said:
Gold Seal has a great video on holds/entries. It's been years since I watched it but it was very helpful to me early on. maybe Russ can dig it up or maybe my google-fu will surprise me.
Click to expand...

this is the one

 
I don't understand the severe focus on holding patterns for instrument training. Seems most students' in the air training is split almost 50/50 between flying approaches and doing holds

Hold patterns are also non-regulatory, it's an AIM thing, and the most critical thing is that you stay on the protected side

All this nonsense with thumbs and index fingers when more time should be spent practicing what to do when your by yourself in the clouds and you start getting the leans or struggling shooting that approach and you're stressed out

Not to mention the glass panels that most of us fly behind These Days beautifully paint out the hold you just have to follow it

To me this is like teaching PPL students how to hand prop a plane or use a sextant
 
brcase said:
All you need to know is they are going to give you a fix and the "inbound" leg. with the possiblity of non-standard turns. or designated leg length.

for your example
Fix = 110 Radial off the ABC VOR (the is the fix)
Inbound Leg = 110 Radial on the SE side of the fix.

So draw a point (the fix) then draw the line (110 Radial) then put an arrow on the inbound side pointing to the fix (SE side of the 110 Radial), then when cross the fix make a turn (right is standard since you didn't specify) Fly outbound then turn back to you inbound leg

View attachment 113055

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...


When I drew it out my racetrack was on the opposite side of the radial from yours... That would be SW correct ?


MauleSkinner said:
I guess it would be easier to provide a good reference if we knew what you don’t understand about it.
Click to expand...

I'm good with everything except where the racetrack goes. I usually end up on the wrong side for some reason....


Thank you for all the replies, and smart a$$ comments, and video !!! You guys are the best
 
Tantalum said:
I don't understand the severe focus on holding patterns for instrument training
Click to expand...

We aren't focusing on it per se. We just did some yesterday for the 1st time, and I'm a little hard on myself when something doesn't click on the 1st rip.
 
Tantalum said:
Hold patterns are also non-regulatory, it's an AIM thing,
Click to expand...
No, if the holding pattern is published as part of a procedure, complying with the procedure is regulatory, as is compliance with ATC instructions for holding. Holding pattern ENTRIES are non-regulatory (and not what the OP has problems with.)
 
Kitch said:
When I drew it out my racetrack was on the opposite side of the radial from yours... That would be SW correct ?




I'm good with everything except where the racetrack goes. I usually end up on the wrong side for some reason....
Click to expand...
“Southeast” has nothing to do with which side of the line the racetrack goes. It’s only the general orientation of the holding course line. That general orientation is refined by the radial given. The side the racetrack is on is determined solely by left or right turns.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“Southeast” has nothing to do with which side of the line the racetrack goes. It’s only the general orientation of the holding course line. That general orientation is refined by the radial given. The side the racetrack is on is determined solely by left or right turns.
Click to expand...

And there is the click !!! I'm tracking now no pun intended. Thank you !!!
 
Tantalum said:
I don't understand the severe focus on holding patterns for instrument training. Seems most students' in the air training is split almost 50/50 between flying approaches and doing holds

Hold patterns are also non-regulatory, it's an AIM thing, and the most critical thing is that you stay on the protected side

All this nonsense with thumbs and index fingers when more time should be spent practicing what to do when your by yourself in the clouds and you start getting the leans or struggling shooting that approach and you're stressed out

Not to mention the glass panels that most of us fly behind These Days beautifully paint out the hold you just have to follow it

To me this is like teaching PPL students how to hand prop a plane or use a sextant
Click to expand...


@Kitch , disregard most of this and learn how to properly enter a hold. it's not at all like the things he mentioned, or like using an e6b, it's actually useful/relevant information. also, no one said holds are more important than learning to fly in the clouds, we (most of us) understand that this is just something you have to learn as well.
 
I do think all the emphasis on entries can distract from the basics of how to draw an unpublished hold from the ATC instructions.
 
Hang 4 said:
I do think all the emphasis on entries can distract from the basics of how to draw an unpublished hold from the ATC instructions.
Click to expand...
If they can’t figure out where the hold is, they shouldn’t be working on entries yet. Kind of like doing approaches before you learn to control the airplane by instruments.
 
in fairness to the OP, he said entries weren't the issue. it was some of us knuckleheads that threw in entries.
 
Tantalum said:
I don't understand the severe focus on holding patterns for instrument training.
Click to expand...

Here's one reason. I received and unpublished hold, with left hand turns on my instrument ride. I was flying a DME arc to the ILS and the controller needed spacing for commercial traffic landing on the reciprocal runway. This was after getting a right 360° while outbound from the VOR to the arc, just about to turn left onto the arc.
 
Kitch said:
Can someone post a link or something to help me understand "where" the holding pattern "is" on unpublished holding.

Entries are no problem I just can't get my f@ckin head to stop spinning with the old...

Hold SE of the ABC VOR 110 radial 15 DME 1 min legs.... I really can't be as dumb as I feel
Click to expand...
I wrote an article about that for ALPA in 1999:
 

Attachments

  • unchartedholding.pdf
    111.4 KB · Views: 55
Tantalum said:
I don't understand the severe focus on holding patterns for instrument training. ...

To me this is like teaching PPL students how to hand prop a plane or use a sextant
Click to expand...
I agree 100+%!! In our instrument training we waste hours and hours -- and even more brain cells -- on entries into the Hold. Once you have the rating, the entry matters exactly 0%... you just remain on the protected side of the hold (so nicely painted on our panel GPS and/or iPad) and within the distance limit. We should be spending those hours on more approaches... and how 'bout a SID/ODP or two (big time neglected in Instrument training)??!
 
wayneda40 said:
I agree 100+%!! In our instrument training we waste hours and hours -- and even more brain cells -- on entries into the Hold. Once you have the rating, the entry matters exactly 0%... you just remain on the protected side of the hold (so nicely painted on our panel GPS and/or iPad) and within the distance limit. We should be spending those hours on more approaches... and how 'bout a SID/ODP or two (big time neglected in Instrument training)??!
Click to expand...
Or maybe we should teach that there isn’t a “protected” or “unprotected” side of the hold. ;)

And whether or not you would fly without GPS or a map display is irrelevant…your instrument rating authorizes you to fly holds the old fashioned way, so it needs to be learned.

I would also suggest that deleting something else to make room to train SIDs/ODPs is not necessary.
 
Last edited:
If you young whipper snappers would just learn this without a GPS....it would all make more sense. lol :D
 
Kitch said:
When I drew it out my racetrack was on the opposite side of the radial from yours... That would be SW correct ?

<snip>
Click to expand...

On the example of a 110 radial, there are really only two options SE or NW.

Remember alway draw the inbound leg as that is what they are describing before drawing the race track.

Brian
 
brcase said:
On the example of a 110 radial, there are really only two options SE or NW.

Remember alway draw the inbound leg as that is what they are describing before drawing the race track.

Brian
Click to expand...
No, the 110 radial is southeast of the fix, not northwest.
 
Kitch said:
Can someone post a link or something to help me understand "where" the holding pattern "is" on unpublished holding.

Entries are no problem I just can't get my f@ckin head to stop spinning with the old...

Hold SE of the ABC VOR 110 radial 15 DME 1 min legs.... I really can't be as dumb as I feel
Click to expand...
If you’re studying for the written, here is the memory aid I use to answer the hold questions correctly..

upload_2022-12-14_21-32-53.jpeg

The number inside the square is the Figure in the supplement book.

For #124, if the question says hold south, then the entry is Direct.

mid 124 and east, left turns, parallel; right turns Teardrop.

When told to start the test, I write out all the memory aid items I memorized onto blank paper, then get busy answering the questions
 
Kritchlow said:
The VOR and the holding fix.

Yes, the 110 radial is always SE of the VOR, but you can still hold NW of the fix on the 110.
Click to expand...
It won’t be issued that way, though. The direction is from the holding fix, just like the radial.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It won’t be issued that way, though. The direction is from the holding fix, just like the radial.
Click to expand...
If it’s on the NW side of the fix it will. That’s the only way to know which side of the fix to hold on.
Four possible quadrants. Need two pieces on info to determine which quadrant.
1) Direction from fix (NW etc…)
2) Direction of turn
 
Ah crap. Now I'm confused
 
This is what I told my students when I was teaching instruments.

When you draw it out, draw it like a wind arrow. "Southeast winds" means winds coming from the southeast.

So if they start by saying "hold southeast..." draw your hold arrow coming from the southeast direction. Everything else will make sense then.

Edit: picture for clarity.
IMG-8909.JPG
 
Kritchlow said:
If it’s on the NW side of the fix it will. That’s the only way to know which side of the fix to hold on.
Four possible quadrants. Need two pieces on info to determine which quadrant.
1) Direction from fix (NW etc…)
2) Direction of turn
Click to expand...
That would be “hold northwest of the XYZ VOR 110 radial, 15 DME FIX on the 290 radial, right turns.” You’d have to check the 7110 manual, but I doubt that’s a legit holding clearance.

if it was a named fix, they might issue, “hold northwest of BMFCK on the 290 radial, right turns,” to which you’d reply, “where’s BMFCK?” “That’s on the XYZ 110 radial, 15 miles.”
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top