Why 2700 RPM?

More cylinders is smoother. Period. Unless it's something with a weird firing order, like a Harley, or the 2-stroke McCullough drone engine I once owned, where two cylinders fired together, then the other two. Really rough. Imagine an O-320 with only two cylinders, or just one. Horrible.

When I bought my Hyundai Sonata, there were two engine options: a four and a V6. I drove both, and the six was far smoother. Bought that one.

Any experienced motorcyclist will know that more is smoother. Or an owner of several outboards, from single-cylinder to a four or six. Overlapping pressure strokes is the key.
 
After an encounter with a broken lifter, I learned a whole bunch about air cooled aircraft engines, especially Lycoming.

The old dude at the specialty camshaft shop explained to me that all the four and six cylinder Lycomings had the same camshaft and cam timing as the industrial ground power units of the same displacement. The cam profiles were designed around an engine that was governed at a constant 3200 RPM and the massive overlap was intended to sacrifice efficiency for cooler running.

That explains why those engines bark loudly at lower RPM settings and produce their best power at the high end of their RPM limit.
 
Sigh. did you read anything I wrote? Each individual cylinder only produces power ONCE every 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation. If you have six cylinders, that means you are getting power every 120 degrees, and if you have four cylinders, every 180 degrees.

As to the mumbling about exhaust valves, I don't see how that is relevant to what you're saying at all. The exhaust valve opens just before BDC because the cam lobe doesn't instantly open the valve (it is a ramp, and takes time to open). If you didn't start opening the valve until BDC, you'd waste energy compressing your exhaust.


The engine is not continuously supplying power. There are pulses of power every 120 degrees.

Both four-cylinder and six-cylinder aircraft engines are horizontally opposed engines and have pistons moving in opposing directions on opposite sides of the engine. Both give us great primary and secondary balance.

The biggest reason a six cylinder aircraft engine feels smoother is because there are more cylinders firing in a given moment of time vs its four cylinder cousin at the same RPM. Less pulsey, but make no mistake, the power still comes in pulses and is not continuous.

Signed,

A software engineer that probably made mistakes. Wait for Ted for the real thoughts.
Give him a break…he’s probably a Rotax guy! ;)
 
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You had me at Aztec :drool:


Personally I love dialing the RPM back in whatever I fly, generally going to the lower, or lowest, range of the what the POH will allow. It is so much quieter and the difference in airspeed is tolerable for the legs I fly (under 500nm typically). It also sounds much better, quieter, but it's less "violent" (if that makes any sense). Less exhausting

In the Aztec the POH allows for a long range cruise at 2100 and 21 inches, or up to 2200 and 26 inches. I never fly low enough to get that kind of MP so I'm usually parked at 2100 or 2200 and about 20 inches. In the Duchess you can operate down to 2000 and up to 24 inches but the recommended lowest RPM cruise value is 2300 and 24 inches

In the off chance I'm right seating in a twin and the dude leaves the rental beater duchess at 2500 the whole time it (A) annoys be out of principle and (B) sounds so much louder! Same is true when I'm the singles, cruising along at MaXiMuM REntAL PowER just sounds so awful
 
More cylinders is smoother. Period. Unless it's something with a weird firing order, like a Harley, or the 2-stroke McCullough drone engine I once owned, where two cylinders fired together, then the other two. Really rough. Imagine an O-320 with only two cylinders, or just one. Horrible.

When I bought my Hyundai Sonata, there were two engine options: a four and a V6. I drove both, and the six was far smoother. Bought that one.

Any experienced motorcyclist will know that more is smoother. Or an owner of several outboards, from single-cylinder to a four or six. Overlapping pressure strokes is the key.

You forgot a three cylinder. A six cylinder is two banks (or a tandem pair) of threes. This means a 120 degree crank offset vs. a 180 degree for a four or an eight. So your six likely runs more smoothly than an eight.
 
six likely runs more smoothly than an eight
I've noticed this in cars in boats.. the 6 just sounds 'better' to my ears

Speaking of boats, Yanmar had a successful line of 3 cylinder diesels and Volvo had a good line of 5 cylinders, these were common in sailboats and unseated the older "Atomic 4" that was typical in the 1970s and 1980s sailboats. Our Yanmar always ran very smooth, both at "high" and low RPM
 
I've got lots of time behind the wheel of, and wrenching in the bay of, the Jaguar 5.3L V-12, as does Ted.

Those of us that have, simply know. Nothing easily beats the V-12.
 
I've got lots of time behind the wheel of, and wrenching in the bay of, the Jaguar 5.3L V-12, as does Ted.

Those of us that have, simply know. Nothing easily beats the V-12.

I6? aka 1/2 of V12
 
I've got lots of time behind the wheel of, and wrenching in the bay of, the Jaguar 5.3L V-12, as does Ted.

Those of us that have, simply know. Nothing easily beats the V-12.
Which basically, is two in-line 6's mated up? 7 main bearings on the v12?
 
I was always told the 12 cylinder Jag was designed for smoothness. I have owned xj6 and xj8. I liked the inline 6 best...not fast on start but top end it was a fast car.
 
You forgot a three cylinder. A six cylinder is two banks (or a tandem pair) of threes. This means a 120 degree crank offset vs. a 180 degree for a four or an eight. So your six likely runs more smoothly than an eight.
A V-8 has 90° offsets, not 180°. It has four firings per revolution. A V6 has three.

Small-block Chev V8:
upload_2022-5-6_15-5-15.jpeg
 
You could look at it that way. But by the same reasoning a V6 has 60 degree offsets. But yes an 8 has more firings per revolution than a 6.

Sac, buddy, you’re making my brain hurt.

An even firing 4-cycle V8 will have a 8 firing events every 2 revolutions of the crankshaft (720 degrees). That’s 720/8 or 90 degrees. An even firing straight 8 will also have a firing event every 90 degrees.

Dan showed a picture of a cross plane V8 crankshaft for an engine with a 90 degree vee angle, which has a crank throw every 90 degrees. A flat plane V8 crank will look like an I4 crank (like your Sentra) and the degrees between firing will be the same.

An even firing 4-stroke 6 cylinder - whether straight, flat, vee, will have a firing event every 120 degrees (720/6). In a straight 6, there will be 120 degrees between crank throws. In our flat 6s (boxer engines) there will be a crank throw every 60 degrees, but that’s because they’re boxer engines so opposing pistons both hit TDC at the same time.

The only in-line 6 I’m aware of with crank throws every 60 degrees is a Detroit Diesel 6-71, which is a 2-stroke and therefore does have a firing event every 60 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
 
Sac, buddy, you’re making my brain hurt.

An even firing 4-cycle V8 will have a 8 firing events every 2 revolutions of the crankshaft (720 degrees). That’s 720/8 or 90 degrees. An even firing straight 8 will also have a firing event every 90 degrees.

Dan showed a picture of a cross plane V8 crankshaft for an engine with a 90 degree vee angle, which has a crank throw every 90 degrees. A flat plane V8 crank will look like an I4 crank (like your Sentra) and the degrees between firing will be the same.

An even firing 4-stroke 6 cylinder - whether straight, flat, vee, will have a firing event every 120 degrees (720/6). In a straight 6, there will be 120 degrees between crank throws. In our flat 6s (boxer engines) there will be a crank throw every 60 degrees, but that’s because they’re boxer engines so opposing pistons both hit TDC at the same time.

The only in-line 6 I’m aware of with crank throws every 60 degrees is a Detroit Diesel 6-71, which is a 2-stroke and therefore does have a firing event every 60 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

Yeabut, Ted, brotha from another mutha, aren't firings from even cylinder pairs always in pairs, on even cylinder engines? Isn't the point of having odd numbers of cylinders to split up the firings so they aren't all in pairs?
 
Yeabut, Ted, brotha from another mutha, aren't firings from even cylinder pairs always in pairs, on even cylinder engines? Isn't the point of having odd numbers of cylinders to split up the firings so they aren't all in pairs?
Only engines I’ve seen with odd numbers are radials.
 
Yeabut, Ted, brotha from another mutha, aren't firings from even cylinder pairs always in pairs, on even cylinder engines? Isn't the point of having odd numbers of cylinders to split up the firings so they aren't all in pairs?

Negative. Very few engines have two simultaneously firing cylinders. Two cylinders will be at TDC at the same time on a V8 or a 6-cylinder, but only one is firing.

There are various reasons for choosing an odd number of cylinders, but that ain’t it. One can be reduced secondary vibrations which can help an engine rev to high rpm.
 
Yeabut, Ted, brotha from another mutha, aren't firings from even cylinder pairs always in pairs, on even cylinder engines? Isn't the point of having odd numbers of cylinders to split up the firings so they aren't all in pairs?

I'm not sure about boxer engines, but I don't think Vs(flat including i think) fire in pairs.

here is a V8 visualization
 
Yeabut, Ted, brotha from another mutha, aren't firings from even cylinder pairs always in pairs, on even cylinder engines? Isn't the point of having odd numbers of cylinders to split up the firings so they aren't all in pairs?
upload_2022-5-6_18-6-36.gif

upload_2022-5-6_18-20-54.gif

Watch one cylinder. See the intake, compression, combustion and exhaust strokes. Do the same on the radial, then see why a radial has an odd number of cylinders. In this five-cylinder radial, the firing order is 1-3-5-2-4-1-3-5...
 
I'm not sure about boxer engines, but I don't think Vs(flat including i think) fire in pairs.

here is a V8 visualization
The only boxer that fires in pairs is this one:

upload_2022-5-6_18-25-19.jpeg

And that's because it's a two-stroke engine. Opposing cylinders fire together, and the vibration is awesome. So is the noise.

McCullough drone engine. They were popular on Bensen gyrocopters. Famous for failing, too. Single mag, cheap carb. Designed for something like a 15-minute service life, pulling high-speed radio-controlled drones for antiaircraft gunners to shoot at.
 
View attachment 106636

View attachment 106637

Watch one cylinder. See the intake, compression, combustion and exhaust strokes. Do the same on the radial, then see why a radial has an odd number of cylinders. In this five-cylinder radial, the firing order is 1-3-5-2-4-1-3-5...

That is a nice graphic. I wonder though, is the firing sequence the same in an inline five cylinder as in the radial? I suppose it is but I'm too brain dead now to figure it out.

I still struggle though... (and I am easily confused.) @Ted when I speak of crank offsets I mean mechanically, not necessarily what cylinders are firing at what time. So isn't it that the reduced crank offsets from odd cylinder configurations reduces vibrations by smoothing things out, or is it something else?

I'm not challenging. I'm asking. I want to learn here too.
 
I still struggle though... (and I am easily confused.) @Ted when I speak of crank offsets I mean mechanically, not necessarily what cylinders are firing at what time. So isn't it that the reduced crank offsets from odd cylinder configurations reduces vibrations by smoothing things out, or is it something else?

I'm not challenging. I'm asking. I want to learn here too.

So, if you're talking about the physical offsets of the rod journals on a crankshaft, there are vibration reasons why that can be desirable. However first to clear up, most 6 cylinders as I stated above have 120 degree crank offsets, not 60, which is still higher than the 90 degree offsets you see in a cross-plane V8 crankshaft (or a cross-plane I4 crankshaft, like the odd-firing Yamaha R1).

This really comes down to secondary vibrations. There are a lot of sources out there that explain secondary (and primary) vibrations better than I can, but probably the easiest way to think about this is that when a piston is moving from top dead center down the bore, it travels further during the first 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation than the second 90. This sounds weird at first but makes sense when you look at a piston/connecting rod/crank assembly from the front. For the first 90 degrees of crank rotation, the rod journal is moving down and out. For the bottom 90 degrees of rotation, it's moving the rod journal down and back in-line (straight up and down). This difference in piston distance traveled creates an inherent vibration.

Even-firing odd-number-cylinder engines have an inherent advantage her, so that's probably what you're thinking of. Secondary vibration forces especially come into play at higher RPM, which is why Yamaha went to a cross-plane I4 engine for the R1. That makes it an odd-firing engine, but a standard flat plane I4 has pretty bad secondary vibrations, and by making it a cross plane crank they reduced the secondary vibrations a great deal, which is part of how they got it to rev so high. My wife's Triumph Daytona was a 3 cylinder, revved to 14k RPM, and I think that was part of how they got it there as well.

You're seeing more odd-firing engines and interesting plays on firing order these days, like my wife's Triumph Tiger 900 - which has a 3-cylinder engine on a "T-plane" crank (think a cross plane V8 crank with one rod journal knocked off), which makes it odd firing but gives it a sound that blends a 3-cylinder and a V-twin. I don't think it has any balance advantages vs a traditional I3, but the point is manufacturers are doing it now, whereas the last odd-fire engine I can think of in the 1900s was an odd-fire V6 (GM I think?) from the 80s and it really wasn't very good or interesting. Like many things, tech has come a long way.

This sort of gets back to what @Tarheelpilot requested of a more detailed response to some of the other posts made about vibrations. Engine vibrations are fantastically complex, and all reciprocating engines are going to experience vibrations and harmonics of some sort if you get them to the right RPM and the right conditions. Some of these are going to be due to the inherent layout of the engine regardless of power production as discussed above, and some are going to be from the power production itself.

With few exceptions, piston engines will have the spark plug(s) fire on a cylinder at a particular point. That is the point of ignition, and from there cylinder pressure builds up and then starts to go down. This image shows it well:

Cylinder-Pressure-Lrg.gif


In a multi-cylinder engine, the torque that the crankshaft receives is proportional to the cylinder pressure. This is essentially the above graph, but labeled differently to express this more clearly:

smooth_powerstroke1.jpg


If you have a multi-cylinder engine, the torque that the crankshaft receives is essentially a lot of these same charts overlayed and offset for the firing of the different cylinders. See these xamples for a 4-cyl and 12-cyl:

upload_2022-5-7_6-58-31.png

upload_2022-5-7_6-58-46.png

When you get a torque number (like 500 ft-lbs), what that torque really is is the average. You have peak pulses for which the torque is much higher. Because of the mass of various parts (rotating assembly, flywheel, etc.) this smooths out the pulses. However ultimately this is also part of why you generally see spring clutches, it helps to absorb those pulses and smooth things out for the transmission. The specific size, peak, etc. of these torque pulses depends on many factors. Diesels have higher peaks that go up more rapidly. Low compression spark ignition engines with lots of cylinders have lower peaks that move up and down slowly.

But this is looking at torque at the flywheel. Remember that in any engine that's not a radial, you've got a crankshaft that has multiple rod journals, and so the torque pulses are being applied at different points within the crankshaft. And so you have what are called torsional vibrations, essentially how the crankshaft twist throughout a cycle if you measure a rotation between the front and rear of a crankshaft. On our aircraft engines, I recall that 1-1.5 degrees was about normal. On a car engine one of my colleagues once told me that seeing 3-5 degrees wasn't abnormal, especially during shifts (think about how quickly RPMs change, especially with some automatics or with someone who can't drive a manual very well).

And so this really gets back to the initial point of my responses about my brain hurting at the notion that a 6-cylinder engine was devoid of vibrations because it was constantly producing power. There is a LOT going on with respect to forces and resultant vibrations inside a piston engine of any number of cylinders through a cycle regardless of the number of cylinders, regardless of 2 or 4-stroke. Yes, as a rule more cylinders will equal smoother to the operator (there are exceptions). But the whole topic is exceedingly complex and I'll be the first to say that I'm not an expert on it, but I've spent enough time on it that I know a few things.

1) Engines vibrate. Period (turbines too)

2) There's stuff that goes on inside engines which may not seem inherently obvious, or even perceptible to the operator until you have things like metal fatigue, or an excitement of a natural frequency at a particular RPM that causes you to throw alternator belts due to your crankshaft counterweights getting detuned (seen that one before on an IO-520 - the video is impressive). This can also get into things coming from together if they get bad enough

3) When you see a yellow arc, there's usually a good reason why it was put there, and you should probably follow it
 
@Ted is the single throw crank part of why my perception of radials is they ran smooth in comparison to other piston engines?

thank you for the response.

I hadn’t considered that aspect before, but that could be a contributing factor and would make sense. Since radials also have more cylinders typically (7, 9, 14, 18, etc…) there’s that as well.

Perception of vibration also is heavily influenced by mounts. A solid mount V8 might still feel like it vibrates more than a well isolated 4-cylinder for instance. Swap standard rubber motor mounts for polyurethane or solid and you’ll see this as well.
 
1) Engines vibrate. Period (turbines too)
Perception of vibration also is heavily influenced by mounts. A solid mount V8 might still feel like it vibrates more than a well isolated 4-cylinder for instance. Swap standard rubber motor mounts for polyurethane or solid and you’ll see this as well.
Just to add, its the perception side that adds another level of complexity when you start to track those vibration frequencies of .5-per, 1-per, 2-per, 3-per, etc. Throw in those vibrations can be influenced by both static (mounts, etc.) and dynamic (prop, alternator, etc. )external forces and it can really add to how those vibrations are felt or perceived. For example, most recip engine mount are purposely "tuned" to cancel out the .5 through 2 per spectrum which are inherent vibrations to the combustion process, prop noise, and drivetrain. Throw in RPM sensitivity and multiples of those basic vibrations (2-per masks a 4-per) and it can be a chore to narrow down the cause of an excessive vibration. Helicopters and turbine engines deal vibrations a bit differently by design but using the same processes.
 
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The only engines that are naturally smooth due to second and third order harmonic vibrations are five cylinder inlines.

Even seven cylinders are not as smooth.
 
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