Who let this guy solo?

[Bender Aviation]

Back in my day we used celestial navigation . Well, back in my grandpas day anyways.

 

[bbchien]

I sure don't fault the controller.
But I'll be the CFI's 44709 re-investigation ride will be quite interesting.....

 

[mandm]

I sure don't fault the controller.
But I'll be the CFI's 44709 re-investigation ride will be quite interesting.....

Did this incident warrant a 709 re-exam?

 

[Half Fast]

That's not what he meant.

Then what did he mean? I don't think the controller said whatever he meant, because he told the pilot that he was on the left downwind for 30 when he wasn't. That's confusing.

The controller gave him a heading within the first few seconds to ENTER the left downwind and he didn't take it.

That heading in the first few seconds wasn't a heading to enter the downwind, by the way. The heading the controller gave was 300, which would be the same heading as runway 30, so apparently the controller wanted the pilot to fly parallel and offset for a ways, then make a right turn to heading 120 to be on the left downwind for 30. But the controller expected the pilot to figure out those details which the student pilot was unable to do.

I'm not faulting the controller for the student's ineptness; I'm just saying that the controller added a bit to the student's confusion. I think the real fault lies with the CFI that approved the solo, but I'm sure it's sometimes tough for a CFI to know just how a student will act under stress.

 

[Zeldman]

And people wonder why a lot of the Phoenix approach controllers are grumpy all the time. I would be too if I had to repeat myself all the time.

Yeah, I accidently called PHX approach Albuquerque once. Once....

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yeah, I accidently called PHX approach Albuquerque once. Once....

I had Phoenix Approach repeatedly call me a Lear (I was flying a Falcon). When he gave me the frequency change, I responded, “Roger, ground control, FALCON....”

 

[Initial Fix]

I feel for the student, but I do wonder why he was allowed to solo. The task loading seems to have got the best of him. Add in the right turn for left base 30L and I think his brain went to mush.

 

[Palmpilot]

Be nice....I don’t know anyone who wasn’t scared ****less on their first solo flight. And several flights after...

Me. I was more excited than anything else. After the 3rd landing I forgot to stop and pick up my instructor that was waiting at the base of the tower....

I was euphoric during my first solo takeoff. Shortly thereafter, I realized, "Uh oh, now I have to LAND this thing!"

 

[WannFly]

Because there are so many, any where you do it will become congested. Check out Grand Forks, North Dakota airport on Flightaware any given day.

You should hear some of them on frequency.... I have no idea how the controllers out here decipher what they are asking and this is coming from someone whose first language is not English. I have stopped going that side unless it’s Sunday and the planes are grounded. Most times they will go to a satellite airport nearby and shoot approaches - whatever approach their CFII told them , doesn’t matter which runway is used due to wind conditions and for the love of Zeus someone tell them to use normal VFR language while giving position reports.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That's pilotage, not dead(ded)-reckoning. Both are concepts that aren't used, or understood, as well as they were before the widespread use of GPS.

Pilotage is the art of knowing where you are by reading a map and comparing it with the surrounding terrain and landmarks, while dead reckoning is the art knowing where you currently are by using a compass, your ground speed, a clock and an initial known position.

To be fair, it's difficult to get a student to commit to learning these skills when they know there can be a nice, pretty, magenta line on the display with just a few knob twists and button presses. And, that student, was your CFI's CFI.

It’s sad really. Dead reckoning kept me from being dead one day. I love the technology but it makes us lazy.

 

[Clip4]

I had Phoenix Approach repeatedly call me a Lear (I was flying a Falcon). When he gave me the frequency change, I responded, “Roger, ground control, FALCON....”

Man, you lucky he did ask you Dassault or Ford.

 

[Skyrys62]

This guy: Where do I land?
Tower: Runway 33 left.
This guy: Oh damn..is it coming back?

 

[LesGawlik]

Did this incident warrant a 709 re-exam?

I don't think it implicated the CFI's airmanship, but it sure implicated his ADM.

Remember the CFI who got a deal with a student who owned his own plane, was a ground instructor for fast movers, was going on a solo, was specifically told to dip his tanks when he stopped on his out and back, admitted he didn't get gas or even dip his tanks, and returning home crashed on the extended center line of the runway because of fuel exhaustion? THAT was a deal for the CFI, who was previously honored as regional instructor by the FAA.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I did my helicopter add on at gateway. It was a fun little airport. I enjoyed chasing the chipmunks on the north ramp with the helicopter.

 

[bbchien]

Did this incident warrant a 709 re-exam?

It usually does. Some years ago we had a local to me flight instructor, well known to me, solo a urologist from PIA to ARR. He didn't keep track of his Dead Recokoning times, and when he was 15 minutes overdue and his frequencies didn't raise anyone , he decided he'd better land. It was 4R @ ORD.

That CFI is still active but is still mad about it.

 

[Larry in TN]

I feel for the student, but I do wonder why he was allowed to solo. The task loading seems to have got the best of him.

Probably has something happen on this flight that had never happened before and it confused him. He was likely doing fine with the situations that he was accustom to and the CFI has not seen him (recently) lose the bigger picture.

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah, I accidently called PHX approach Albuquerque once. Once....

Have some fun, do it on purpose next time

 

[Kritchlow]

It’s not what the DPEs are letting them get away with; it’s the fact that they know what’s going to be on the test, so they’re prepared for it.

A true example...tower told us to “go around, make right traffic”. My ATP/type rated copilot who was flying the airplane continued down final for another 300 feet before I had to intervene. She then started a turn to the left, which I had to correct. I had to instruct her to level off in the pattern before we busted the airspace above at almost 3000 AGL. Her brain was probably closer to “number one for takeoff” than it was to “cleared to land”.

Not exactly what you were referring to in my quoted post. Yes, folks do make mistakes. I also find a huge difference between 1500 hour ATPs that get the Certificate just to have it, and those who earn it every 6 months to make a living.

And by the way, just so you know in the future, ATP is not a rating. It’s a grade of certificate. Wanted to let you know just so you would put that in the correct place on the certificate.

 

[Dana]

Be nice....I don’t know anyone who wasn’t scared ****less on their first solo flight. And several flights after...

Me. I was more excited than anything else.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Not exactly what you were referring to in my quoted post. Yes, folks do make mistakes. I also find a huge difference between 1500 hour ATPs that get the Certificate just to have it, and those who earn it every 6 months to make a living.

This one (and at least one other) made consistent mistakes...they trained every six months or every year, and chose not to have standards in between.

And by the way, just so you know in the future, ATP is not a rating. It’s a grade of certificate. Wanted to let you know just so you would put that in the correct place on the certificate.

I don’t see where I called the ATP a rating. I referred to a type rating, which is a rating.

 

[Clip4]

It usually does. Some years ago we had a local to me flight instructor, well known to me, solo a urologist from PIA to ARR. He didn't keep track of his Dead Recokoning times, and when he was 15 minutes overdue and his frequencies didn't raise anyone , he decided he'd better land. It was 4R @ ORD.

That CFI is still active but is still mad about it.

Lesson learned. Any time you solo a student with a medical degree you better think twice.

 

[Timbeck2]

Lesson learned. Any time you solo a student with a medical degree you better think twice.

I guess their head is so full of medical knowledge that there isn't enough room for airplane stuff. We had a doctor come to our shop wanting a tire change. The tires were worn smooth down to the cord, the brake rivets were digging into the rotor (both are pre-flight items) and when one of us mentioned something about a spar, he asked, "what's a spar?"

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Lesson learned. Any time you solo a student with a medical degree you better think twice.

There may be a somewhat higher chance of this type of thing with professionals learning to fly. A few factors may matter:

Some are learning to fly with a specific flight in mind and just want to hurry up and be able to it. In Arizona, this can be flying to a smaller outlying town to do a clinic for a day. My CFI had one prior student that was like this. We would occasionally see him whip by us while taxiing in a hurry to get to the runway, not do a run up, and tell the tower that he would out of there quickly once they cleared him. My CFI remembered him years later and would comment about the attitude.

Such professionals are by nature fairly focused people. The type of division of attention to a number of items required for successful flying may require a shift of mindset.

 

[Zeldman]

I had a psychiatrist as a student once.

He was a very interesting fellow.

But I still hear voices in my head when i fly.....

 

[Half Fast]

But I still hear voices in my head when i fly.....

That's ATC. Do what the voices tell you.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

There is a certain kind of intelligence to be good at flying.

 

[Skyrys62]

There is a certain kind of intelligence to be good at flying.

No one is going to dare ask, haha

 

[PPC1052]

Probably has something happen on this flight that had never happened before and it confused him. He was likely doing fine with the situations that he was accustom to and the CFI has not seen him (recently) lose the bigger picture.

I get that. On one of my student pilot solos, I flew to a towered airport and got the instruction to enter a right base. I remember thinking, "Hmm. Ok, conceptually, I get that instruction, but when do I need to turn to make that happen? And where am I relative to that course?" I was only used to making left turns to final, and joining the pattern on the downwind. Then, on top of that, I wasn't used to the plane's flying characteristics with no one in the right seat. It was a DA-20, which likes to float even with 2 people in the cockpit if you are the least bit over your approach airspeed. I never got down close to the run way on the first pass (I mean, I was at least 100 feet too high), and only marginally closer on the second pass. I am sure the controller thought I was going to kill myself because after the second time, the controller asked my intentions. I just stayed as calm as I could, and told him I wanted to try again. On the third time, I really made a point to get my airspeed nailed and the nose up, and got it down just fine. Then I fumbled getting down the taxi instructions back to the threshold to take off and asked for progressive taxi instructions. Fortunately, there was no one else moving at the airport. But essentially what you describe is what happened to me, although certainly not as severe as in the video.

 

[Tokirbymd]

On one of my solos just before taking my ppl, some gusty cross winds. Was planning on some touch and goes. However on the first landing the upwind wing came up and ended up on just 2 wheels- right and nose. Got it stopped and told tower “I think I’ll just taxi back to the FBO”. His response was classic “yeah I figured as much”

 

[Rebelrabbit]

It may prove an easy litmus test to send an aspiring soloist to rent at DVT for their pre solo and complete 2 hours of various full stops mixed in with some T & Gs.

Then a few short trips to various neighboring airfields (Glendale, Scottsdale) and back for some circuit joins to DVT.

Perhaps if the instructor's feeling particularly cruel throw in a transition across the class Bravo

Reckon afterwards there'd be a clearer idea whether someone is sufficiently equipped to their solo certificate.

And even if not ready for solo then certainly something to aspire to.

RR

 

[Z06_Mir]

Clearly, we must be a little isolated in the Phoenix Area.

At Falcon (FFZ) Deer Valley (DVT) and, to a lesser-degree Goodyear (GYR) we are assaulted with foreign pilots getting primary training.

Their command of English is commonly something between zero and negative-zero.

They're all around us like mosquitos.

It's the primary reason I moved from DVT to GYR.

DVT is a nuthouse, pure and simple.

So there is still this 'problem' in Phoenix? Here in Atlanta we had a major flight school with at least 3 locations shutdown and go out of business in the first month of quarantine because most of their students were from China.

To a little bit lesser degree, but yes flight training is still very active here. I think Oxford and AeroGaurd have slowed some, but you still hear them on the radios. "the stack" is still a madhouse most of the time.


Most of the controllers in the Phoenix are nothing short of fantastic. There's only maybe one guy in PHX approach that seems notably irritated most of the time but otherwise they are their typical awesome selves. Seriously they're coordinating airlines, private jets, turboprops and piston singles in masses into every airport at once, plus dealing with VFR practice approaches and and endless amount of bravo transitions. Kudos to you all PHX.

 

[Kritchlow]

This one (and at least one other) made consistent mistakes...they trained every six months or every year, and chose not to have standards in between.


I don’t see where I called the ATP a rating. I referred to a type rating, which is a rating.

You are absolutely correct. My apologies.
I do need to read a bit more carefully before trying to correct someone.

 

[jimf41]

As an Army/police pilot for 41 years I Have never trained a brand new student pilot. By the time got them in the Army they had gone though 13 months of initial flight training at Ft Rucker and had a civil commercial, IFR rated and a minimum of 200 hours. In the PD I trained some folks that were new to a helicopter but already had FW ratings and I was just transitioning them into a helicopter. Is there any repercussion on the instructor who signed this guy off to fly solo in busy airspace?

 

[guzziguy]

It may prove an easy litmus test to send an aspiring soloist to rent at DVT for their pre solo and complete 2 hours of various full stops mixed in with some T & Gs.

Then a few short trips to various neighboring airfields (Glendale, Scottsdale) and back for some circuit joins to DVT.

Perhaps if the instructor's feeling particularly cruel throw in a transition across the class Bravo

Reckon afterwards there'd be a clearer idea whether someone is sufficiently equipped to their solo certificate.

And even if not ready for solo then certainly something to aspire to.

RR

A friend is currently working on his PPL and has recently soloed.
He told me the other day that his instructor told him he was now signed off to fly up to 25 miles away (but not land). Is this true?! Coming into a pattern (rather than simply staying within it) is a whole different kettle of fish for a brand new student with less than 15 hours.

 

[guzziguy]

I had Phoenix Approach repeatedly call me a Lear (I was flying a Falcon). When he gave me the frequency change, I responded, “Roger, ground control, FALCON....”

Every so often, controllers will call me "Cherokee" instead of "Arrow."
I correct them every time to ensure this insult does not continue!! harhar

 

[James_Dean]

DVT is a nuthouse, pure and simple.

Every time I fly into DVT I get a chuckle. When you use proper phraseology, read back clearances promptly, succinctly, and correctly you can literally feel the hugs from the tower. It is almost like they need a little break every so often from the craptastic sizzle they see all the time.

 

[iamtheari]

Every time I fly into DVT I get a chuckle. When you use proper phraseology, read back clearances promptly, succinctly, and correctly you can literally feel the hugs from the tower. It is almost like they need a little break every so often from the craptastic sizzle they see all the time.

I haven't visited a tower cab yet, although I've always wanted to. Maybe DVT or IWA would be a good one to visit. Bring popcorn.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A friend is currently working on his PPL and has recently soloed.
He told me the other day that his instructor told him he was now signed off to fly up to 25 miles away (but not land). Is this true?! Coming into a pattern (rather than simply staying within it) is a whole different kettle of fish for a brand new student with less than 15 hours.

61.93(b) outlines that kettle of fish.

 

[Palmpilot]

Every so often, controllers will call me "Cherokee" instead of "Arrow."
I correct them every time to ensure this insult does not continue!! harhar

The last Arrow I flew said "Cherokee" on the POH.

 

[PaulS]

A friend is currently working on his PPL and has recently soloed.
He told me the other day that his instructor told him he was now signed off to fly up to 25 miles away (but not land). Is this true?! Coming into a pattern (rather than simply staying within it) is a whole different kettle of fish for a brand new student with less than 15 hours.

This is how I was signed off after my solo many years ago. I was told I was good to land a 2 airports beside my home field, one uncontrolled, and one with a tower. My home field was Bedford which was as busy as it's ever been. I wasn't really given a distance, but generally I went to those airports or the practice area. I could fly on good weather days, didn't need to call or get signed off by the instructor. But I had limits on weather that were pretty reasonable for a newby student. I didn't have much more than 15 hours when that happened, might have been less. Never had an issue, had to deal with what is the Boston bravo too, just making sure I stayed out of it.