Who can inspect and annual an experimental?

MonkeyClaw

MonkeyClaw

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Timothy Miller
Aside from the 'builder', who can inspect an experimental? For example, if I were to purchase an already-built experimental, I would not be the builder of record and therefore could not perform the annual inspection. If the original builder is not local, has no interest, or is dead, who can do the inspections?
 
Any A&P can perform the annual condition inspection on an E-AB certificated aircraft. IA is not required unlike the case for a standard certificated aircraft annual inspection.

On a side note, just being the builder does not automatically confer inspection privileges. For E-AB aircraft the builder still has to apply for and receive a repairman's certificate for that specific airframe in order to be authorized to conduct the condition inspection.
 
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tsts4 said:
Any A&P can perform the annual condition inspection on an E-AB certificated aircraft. IA is not required unlike the case for a standard certificated aircraft annual inspection.

On a side note, just being the builder does not automatically confer inspection privileges. For E-AB aircraft the builder still has to apply for and receive a repairman's certificate for that specific airframe in order to be authorized to conduct the condition inspection.
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Ah - What's the process to get a repairman's certificate? I thought getting the builder's cert was enough.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
What's the process to get a repairman's certificate? I thought getting the builder's cert was enough.
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Another option is to go the LSA route and get your LSRI or LSRM depending if you go E-LSA or S-LSA. Not all aircraft that qualify as an LSA fall under this but it one route you can take to work on your aircraft or others which is different from the E/AB route and rules.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Ah - What's the process to get a repairman's certificate? I thought getting the builder's cert was enough.
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There's no such thing as a "builder's certificate." There is the (special) airworthiness certificate for the aircraft and there's the repairman's certificate.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Ah - What's the process to get a repairman's certificate? I thought getting the builder's cert was enough.
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This link spells it out.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/repairman_cert/

What you might have been thinking of is maintenance. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can do 100% and of the maintenance on an E-AB aircraft regardless if they built it or their qualifications. The condition inspection, however, is what requires the repairman’s certificate or a plain A&P certificate.

The special airworthiness certificate for the aircraft (aka the pink slip) has nothing to with this.
 
The link I was looking at was:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...estions/how-to-get-your-repairman-certificate

So I will be the 'primary builder' of the aircraft. At what point would I need to 'demonstrate to the FAA inspector (my) ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation'? When the DAR performs the inspection? Due to the factory assist and the variable timing given by the FAA, the DAR may perform the inspection when I am not around (I will have an authorized agent from the factory for the DAR inspection). Can I demonstrate my ability at a different time? Or maybe even after I get the aircraft home?

Thanks for the replies!
 
MonkeyClaw said:
The link I was looking at was:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...estions/how-to-get-your-repairman-certificate

So I will be the 'primary builder' of the aircraft. At what point would I need to 'demonstrate to the FAA inspector (my) ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation'? When the DAR performs the inspection? Due to the factory assist and the variable timing given by the FAA, the DAR may perform the inspection when I am not around (I will have an authorized agent from the factory for the DAR inspection). Can I demonstrate my ability at a different time? Or maybe even after I get the aircraft home?

Thanks for the replies!
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The repairmen certification is done at your nearest FSDO. You apply after your aircraft gets its AWC. You submit the necessary paperwork and setup an appointment. Not sure how COVID has been impacting the process but I’m willing to bet it’s slowed it down so don’t procrastinate or you’ll be looking for an A&P to do your first condition inspection. Anyway the demonstration is verbal and not practical and can vary significantly from FSDO/inspector to FSDO/inspector. I’ve heard instances that the interview was a simple formality that took all of 15 minutes. In my case, I was grilled for and hour and a half, primarily on engine and related systems as the inspector knew I was pretty familiar with the airframe stuff having been the builder.
 
I have heard some of the FSDO inspectors are tough on interviewing applicants that used an assistance center to determine how much the builder really built and to what depths they know the aircraft. the FSDO examiner COULD determine that you do not have the required skills to be issued the repairman certificate. it has happened with some of the "iffy" builder assistance outfits. on my slow build RV-4 I had an inspector from the MIDO do my inspection, he didn't even look at my build log and then handed me the approval letter for the repairmans certificate. I still have it as i never applied for it since I hold an A&P IA.
 
If you are using (paying) a builder assist center of excellence, they should steer you to the proper path to get your repairman's certificate, IMHO.

Even then, finding an A&P that is open to owner assistance on the annual condition inspection is not that hard, in my experience.
 
tsts4 said:
The repairmen certification is done at your nearest FSDO. You apply after your aircraft gets its AWC. You submit the necessary paperwork and setup an appointment.
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Correct. I took my laptop with my build logs that had notes, photos, receipts, etc. Sat in a room at a table for forty five minutes or so answering questions about build procedures, systems, and so on. Once they were convinced that I had built it and knew how to maintain it the paperwork was done. Not a difficult process at all.
 
catmandu said:
...Even then, finding an A&P that is open to owner assistance on the annual condition inspection is not that hard, in my experience.
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I think its area dependent...when I had an E-AB no one in my area would touch it, claiming liability. I had to go 300 miles away every year. I've heard of others with the same problem.
 
Daleandee said:
Correct. I took my laptop with my build logs that had notes, photos, receipts, etc. Sat in a room at a table for forty five minutes or so answering questions about build procedures, systems, and so on. Once they were convinced that I had built it and knew how to maintain it the paperwork was done. Not a difficult process at all.
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unsafervguy said:
I have heard some of the FSDO inspectors are tough on interviewing applicants that used an assistance center to determine how much the builder really built and to what depths they know the aircraft. the FSDO examiner COULD determine that you do not have the required skills to be issued the repairman certificate. it has happened with some of the "iffy" builder assistance outfits. on my slow build RV-4 I had an inspector from the MIDO do my inspection, he didn't even look at my build log and then handed me the approval letter for the repairmans certificate. I still have it as i never applied for it since I hold an A&P IA.
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The FSDO did my AWC inspection. I had a new guy who had never done an E-AB aircraft before so it was a bit of a Charlie Foxtrot, but it all worked out. When I went for my Repairman's Cert interview, I had a different inspector but as he worked with my initial inspector he was well aware that I had built the plane. As a result, even though I too brought my laptop with my build log and supporting documentation, he never looked at any of that stuff. Although I didn't use a build center, I still got grilled pretty good.
 
I got the airworthiness certificate from a guy that was really good. He came to my shop, saw what I had. Saw my tools and my shop, and signed it off. A few months later I called the FSDO to get moving on a repairman certificate. I explained that I did not have much of a build log and why. The guy at the FSDO was being difficult, I talked to him a few times. He knew the DAR that did the inspection, but still made it sound like they would deny me the certificate. I decided not to bother because of his attitude. He also suggested that I fly my 180 into Denver where the FSDO was located. While I know I can do that, I'd prefer not to go into DEN with a plane that lands at 50 or less. I'd also probably have to taxi a few miles on my bushwheels.

I now have 200 hours on that plane.
 
The at the FSDO who interviewed me for my repairman's cert was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm guessing he may have been a new hire. Asked me a bunch of questions that were either irrelevant or showed that he didn't know what he talking about (my favorite was "What kind of fiberglass is your airplane built out of?". Showed him my build log and he was very concerned that there weren't many pictures of me building the plane. I went through and found a half dozen. After he issued the cert and I was walking out of the back (this was at Sun-n-Fun), I figured that I would try and help the other builders so I stopped and asked an inspector at the counter how many pictures or what percentage of pictures of the builder working on the plane were needed. She chuckled and said she heard my interview. She then shook her head and said "Zero. I can tell after asking a handful of questions whether the builder actually built the plane or not."

I spoke with a couple other builders who got their repairman's cert and the responses were all over the board. Some were rubber stamped without so much as a single question about the construction while others got a half hour (or more) of Q&A.
 
donjohnston said:
I stopped and asked an inspector at the counter how many pictures or what percentage of pictures of the builder working on the plane were needed. She chuckled and said she heard my interview. She then shook her head and said "Zero. I can tell after asking a handful of questions whether the builder actually built the plane or not."
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That was my experience after building my RV10. We did a little meet and greet chitchat followed by a “how long did it take” type question which I casually expanded on. I saw a knowing glimmer in his eyes and knew we were through. He looked at the stack 3 ring binders I had brought in, ignored them and and signed off the paper work. Didn’t hurt a bit.

Oh, I think sitting in an empty office for 10-15 minutes before the meeting is SOP.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
My big fear is that the inspector won't know much about my aircraft. I'm building a Silverlight Aviation AR-1c gyroplane. Compared to something like an RV, it is a way simpler build. However you never know how the inspector may react.

On another note, will I also need powerplant training for the Rotax engine? Or will I be able to do the 'airframe' part and have an A&P do the powerplant part? I'd love to get the additional training but I don't know the requirements.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
My big fear is that the inspector won't know much about my aircraft. I'm building a Silverlight Aviation AR-1c gyroplane. Compared to something like an RV, it is a way simpler build. However you never know how the inspector may react.

On another note, will I also need powerplant training for the Rotax engine? Or will I be able to do the 'airframe' part and have an A&P do the powerplant part? I'd love to get the additional training but I don't know the requirements.
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It’s all or nothing as far the repairman’s cert goes. The inspector won’t care what you built. They care about whether you have the requisite knowledge to safely maintain the airframe AND power plant. If you feel you don’t then you have 2 options: get the necessary education or stick with having an A&P do the condition inspection. You can always apply for the cert later once you gain experience and expertise. Don’t forget that all the cert does it give you authorization to sign off on the inspection. Without it you can still do 100% of the maintenance.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
On another note, will I also need powerplant training for the Rotax engine?
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No, as noted above.

Rotax manuals (except overhaul) are available online. You want those on hand as a minimum. Your A&P may or may not be familiar with yea olde Rotaxe - they do have some quirks (at least as compared to the Lycomental stuff. I do the work on my Rotax 912...

Many of the Rotax shops (California Power Systems, Leading Edge Airfoils, Lockwood) do offer training if you are interested.
 
donjohnston said:
The at the FSDO who interviewed me for my repairman's cert was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm guessing he may have been a new hire. Asked me a bunch of questions that were either irrelevant or showed that he didn't know what he talking about (my favorite was "What kind of fiberglass is your airplane built out of?".
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My first call to inspect my RV-4 in 2003 was to the FSDO. With no delay I reached a guy who was available to inspect, but when he said, "RV-4? That's all-wood, right?" and wanted insanely long ground run time on a rebuilt motor I begged off and went with a DAR. The interview for my repairman's cert at the same FSDO was very brief - I don't recall showing any photos but my memory may be suspect. The interview to become an EAA TC was more thorough :)

Nauga,
full circle.
 
When I went for my repairman’s certificate the FSFO guy was just looking for proof that I was the one who built the plane and that so knew how to maintain it. He diddnt really care about the build log or all the pictures I had. He was only interested in seeing me in the pictures at various stages of the build. Make sure when you are building that you don’t just take pictures of the parts. Get your face in the picture if you can. For the systems side he mostly focused on the engine. I built my engine up myself so the discussion was easy but he said he had some RV builders get rejected because they bought a crate engine and just bolted it up. They had no idea how to do simple maintenance tasks such as time the magnetos or check differential compression. Make sure you know your engine inside and out and not just the specs of what you bought. The whole interview took maybe 45 minutes from stat to finish.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Ah, good question. It looks like it falls under E-LSA.
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One would want to know up front...To get an airworthiness certificate, an E-LSA must be built as a clone of an S-LSA aircraft but does not need to meet the so called 51% rule. E-AB, on yea olde other hande, you are free to do / modify what you want, but you need to meet the 51% rule.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One would want to know up front...To get an airworthiness certificate, an E-LSA must be built as a clone of an S-LSA aircraft but does not need to meet the so called 51% rule. E-AB, on yea olde other hande, you are free to do / modify what you want, but you need to meet the 51% rule.
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Just to piggy-back, once an E-LSA receives its AWC, it can be modified and no longer has to conform to the S-LSA upon which the certification was based.
 
tsts4 said:
Just to piggy-back, once an E-LSA receives its AWC, it can be modified and no longer has to conform to the S-LSA upon which the certification was based.
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Quite true. I’m sure you know this, but for others the only limitation is that modifications cannot be such that the plane would no longer meet LSA limitations. You currently can’t add a flight-adjustable prop, for instance - as much as I’d like to. And major modifications require a flight testing protocol. But even with those limitations, it’s liberating to be able to modify your own plane with no blessing needed from anybody.
 
A&P is the only answer. You are not eligible for the rc.

Its obvious that most people have no idea what the annual is about or the scope of the rc or DAR.

If you read the AC 43.13-1b it will give you a heads up.
 
pfarber said:
A&P is the only answer.
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That’s the most practical answer but not necessarily the only one. The original builder IF they hold the repairman’s cert for that airframe AND if they are willing can do it.
 
Either I am confused or there is a lot of variance in what the OP is planning on doing. First it seemed like he was buying an already built EAB, then building an EAB, and now he is buying either a SLSA or ELSA. And the answer to the question about getting the repairman certificate is different for each of those. It’s hard to provide an answer without knowing the actual question.
 
An A&P is your only option. The only other one who can do it is the one who holds the Repairman's Certificate for that aircraft.

The difference.....the A&P does not need to hold an IA.
MonkeyClaw said:
Aside from the 'builder', who can inspect an experimental? For example, if I were to purchase an already-built experimental, I would not be the builder of record and therefore could not perform the annual inspection. If the original builder is not local, has no interest, or is dead, who can do the inspections?
Click to expand...
 
I'm planning on building a Silverlight Aviation AR-1c gyroplane. When I contacted them, they mentioned they had one for sale that was already built. That led me down the path of finding out what the requirements are to perform my own annuals, as I live in the middle of nowhere (aviation service-wise), I like doing my own wrenching, and the local A&Ps have no knowledge of gyros except that they are a very tasty sandwich. I also vacillate between having a ton of time (not working) and having no time, so the idea of purchasing pre-built can be appealing. Hence the start of this thread.

When reading what the EAA said (linked above) it appeared that all I needed was to be listed as the builder. Then I learned (here) that I also needed to get the repairman's certificate. Then it was mentioned that the E-LSA is different than E-AB, so I did some research and saw that some gyros fall under E-LSA, so I started researching that. After speaking with Silverlight Aviation, it appears that it falls under E-AB and I will need to be listed as the builder and get my repairman's cert.

With the help of all of the kind people who have responded, I've learned a ton about the requirements and various levels of permissions for the different classes of aircraft. So although we have gone full circle and are back to E-AB requirements, I appreciate all of the help and responses that I've received. Coming from a certified background, the regulations are different and it's a whole new maze of FAA BS to figure out.
 
Repairmen's certificate took me 15 minutes at the Oakland FSDO. I had my builders log with lots of photos and records - and they barely glanced at it.

My DAR knew nothing about my plane and asked few questions. Asked me to add one label on the canopy latch and that was it. Both were huge nothing-burgers.

I
 
That's only good for that one aircraft....

Lndwarrior said:
Repairmen's certificate took me 15 minutes at the Oakland FSDO. I had my builders log with lots of photos and records - and they barely glanced at it.

My DAR knew nothing about my plane and asked few questions. Asked me to add one label on the canopy latch and that was it. Both were huge nothing-burgers.

I
Click to expand...
 
tsts4 said:
That’s the most practical answer but not necessarily the only one. The original builder IF they hold the repairman’s cert for that airframe AND if they are willing can do it.
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"Aside from the 'builder', who can inspect an experimental?" Was the question.

A&P IS THE ONLY ANSWER.

Some peoples kids.
 
pfarber said:
"Aside from the 'builder', who can inspect an experimental?" Was the question.

A&P IS THE ONLY ANSWER.

Some peoples kids.
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Thank God you clarified that. The world can start turning again. :rolleyes: How about quoting the original post when you replied then chief since without context your answer is only partially correct. I was replying to you since 30+ posts later some of us aren’t starting at the top of the thread for every additional post.
 
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