While gummint fiddles, Calif burns

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docmirror

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Cowboy - yeehah!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/wildfires_grounded_aircraft

I particularly liked this statement; "a California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection "spotter" must accompany each military and National Guard helicopter to coordinate water drops. The spotters have 24 hours to report for duty, and it took nearly all that time for them and the National Guard crews to assemble. By the time they were ready to go, the winds had made it unsafe to fly."



these are 'emergency response' people. Shameless.
 
docmirror said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/wildfires_grounded_aircraft

I particularly liked this statement; "a California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection "spotter" must accompany each military and National Guard helicopter to coordinate water drops. The spotters have 24 hours to report for duty, and it took nearly all that time for them and the National Guard crews to assemble. By the time they were ready to go, the winds had made it unsafe to fly."



these are 'emergency response' people. Shameless.
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I've been thinking about this...

While on the surface it seems pretty outrageous, I mean, you just grab a bucket with the helo and go, right??

I'm willing to bet it had more to do with communications with the NG crews and firebosses/IC's on the ground. Military equipment can't talk on the same frequencies the the fire crews are using. And if I have my chain of command right, the firebosses on the ground have direct control of where the helo puts the water... so how are they supposed to know where to put it?? I know that the proper communications equipment is a big part of the Forest Service's check out of contract firefighting aircraft, the avionics shop I worked at in ABQ helped out with the comm tests.

Maybe Erik of Alaskaflyer can shed a little more light on how things work.
 
christ the fires are still burning and people are already figuring out who to blame. how about Mother Nature??? 20% of normal rainfall on the year will beat out a fleet of tankers every day.
 
Well, I don't think he was commenting on the rules or reasons behind the rules on why the spotters are needed, those rules were purchased with blood, and you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why.

People like to label rules as bureaucracy when they don't have any understanding on why they are in place. As someone who is paid to be a large-scale incident commander I'd burn 1,000 houses to the ground before I'd kill one pilot or firefighter.

As for the twenty-four-hour rule, which I suspect is a union requirement, as 99% of firefighting resources are union in California outside of the Federal folks...well, unlike firefighters sitting around in a firehall ready to go, those aviation spotters have to pack a bag and travel.

In my experience military resources are inefficient anyway for firefighting, despite what the article said. Usually they are window dressing, though they are better than nothing. Without good comms and good coordination they are a liability instead of a resource, and that takes more than 24 hours.
 
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We had the same problem with the NG helicopters when the fire was burning in the Okefenokee Swamp. The problem was solved by having a Georgie Forestry aircraft (fixed wing) on scene while the NG choppers were working. The forestry a/c acted as the director for the choppers and kept the ground supervisor updated on fire behavior that he could not see from the ground. I don't know if Calif. has fixed wing forestry units, nor do I know how they use them if they do.

One fly in the ointment with this scenario is that the US forestry service usually has command of big fires (they take it away from state control), and their aircraft did not want forestry aircraft in their airspace. That problem was sloved in the Okefenokee by having the NG choppers operate in separate areas from the civilian choppers. US Forestry then ran the whole show, including the state forestry aircraft, while the state aircraft only worked with the NG choppers as a sub unit of the whole show.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Well, I don't think he was commenting on the rules or reasons behind the rules on why the spotters are needed, those rules were purchased with blood, and you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why.

People like to label rules as bureaucracy when they don't have any understanding on why they are in place. As someone who is paid to be a large-scale incident commander I'd burn 1,000 houses to the ground before I'd kill one pilot or firefighter.

As for the twenty-four-hour rule, which I suspect is a union requirement, as 99% of firefighting resources are union in California outside of the Federal folks...well, unlike firefighters sitting around in a firehall ready to go, those aviation spotters have to pack a bag and travel.

In my experience military resources are inefficient anyway for firefighting, despite what the article said. Usually they are window dressing, though they are better than nothing. Without good comms and good coordination they are a liability instead of a resource, and that takes more than 24 hours.
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Thank you!!!!!

So many people seem to think that things just "happen" when, or should, when something like the fires erupt. That some magical thing comes into being.

Do not want a 24 hour rule? Fine, hire and PAY for them to be "Johnny on the spot"....oh you do not want too? Tough cookies....you cannot have it both ways.

As so eloquently said, not all rules are "bureaucracy", some of them are there for a reason and no, saving a house is not worth the loss of a pilot or firefighters life, nor is putting them in a situation that may require their rescue. All of these agencies do NOT operate on the same frequencies (for obvious reasons) or follow the same rules, a forestry pilot and an army helo guy share one thing, airspace, after that it all goes haywire with different SOP's, rules, laws, etc.
 
Well fine. If we're not going to have it to use, or it's value is very limited, what are we pay for? Cause it look cute sitting on the ramp?

I pray I never need to rely on anyone in the emergency response team. It all about signatures, chain-of-command, rules of engagement, political boundaries, and posturing. Let the effing thing burn, but for gosh sakes, don't even think put an emergency working in peril.
 
If lives are at stake, I agree...

I sat in my driveway once with my pick-up loaded with whatever I could fit in it by myself and watched the slurry bombers behind the house for a couple days. I was ready to haul ass at a moments notice. The insurance papers were in the glove box of the truck. I would have been saddened to lose my home, but I wouldn't want anyone to die trying to save it... it's just sticks and wood.
 
tonycondon said:
christ the fires are still burning and people are already figuring out who to blame. how about Mother Nature??? 20% of normal rainfall on the year will beat out a fleet of tankers every day.
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Well, Mother Nature and a dozen or so basement dwellers who decided they can be big by starting fires.
 
Well, gee whiz the politicians are looking for someone to blame already. Besides themselves that is.

You pay for a certain amount of response capability, after an analysis of what your exposure is. Until someone invents a helicopter which can hover out-of-ground effect doing precision bucket work in 50G100, or a tanker that can do a bombing run in severe turbulence and extreme winds, yes, in some fires they sit looking pretty on the ramp, no matter what your theoretical response capability is.

Ground pounders always complain about the helislackers, and vice versa.

The firefighting budget in California exceeds the gross national product of 50% of the nations on the planet. Well, i have no idea if that is true :p but it probably is. Until people stop building houses in fire-prone areas (or stop expecting the state to save them when they do, I don't care which) you can only plan for and stage for so much. Whatever happened to the cult of personal responsibility I keep hearing about so much?

All that being said, it appears that they could have staged earlier, but I don't know how much warning they had about this particular Santa Ana winds event. And I'm not sure it would have made a tinker's-whatever difference.
 
docmirror said:
I pray I never need to rely on anyone in the emergency response team. It all about signatures, chain-of-command, rules of engagement, political boundaries, and posturing. Let the effing thing burn, but for gosh sakes, don't even think put an emergency working in peril.
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An incident commander was charged in Boise, Idaho with criminal manslaughter after he >allegedly< ignored the bureaucracy and wildland firefighters died. Not a lawsuit, not a termination, a criminal manslaughter trial. A wave of caution rippled throughout the entire community. And no one colors outside the lines anymore - unless they are stupid. If there is a rule, it will be followed.
 
This was sitting in Lake Elsinore today awaiting orders. I talked to some of the crew and they were ready to go. No one knew what to do with this aircraft, so houses burned while it sat. California firefighting politics at their best.


http://www.martinmars.com/
 
tdager said:
Thank you!!!!!

So many people seem to think that things just "happen" when, or should, when something like the fires erupt. That some magical thing comes into being.

Do not want a 24 hour rule? Fine, hire and PAY for them to be "Johnny on the spot"....oh you do not want too? Tough cookies....you cannot have it both ways.
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That's the way it was i Aus with the guy I flew for. They pay a stand by contract and planes (Dromadiers) were placed around the region with pilots and mechanics on ready alert, and CFS operated 337 spotters. The spotters call the location, you fire up the planes and fly out and the CFS guy directs the attack. Most fires would get caught while still tiny and were either doused or contained until ground crews arrived. But then you had a hot dry lightning storm, and all heck would break loose and everyone is flying for weeks.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Well, gee whiz the politicians are looking for someone to blame already. Besides themselves that is.

You pay for a certain amount of response capability, after an analysis of what your exposure is. Until someone invents a helicopter which can hover out-of-ground effect doing precision bucket work in 50G100, or a tanker that can do a bombing run in severe turbulence and extreme winds, yes, in some fires they sit looking pretty on the ramp, no matter what your theoretical response capability is.

Ground pounders always complain about the helislackers, and vice versa.

The firefighting budget in California exceeds the gross national product of 50% of the nations on the planet. Well, i have no idea if that is true :p but it probably is. Until people stop building houses in fire-prone areas (or stop expecting the state to save them when they do, I don't care which) you can only plan for and stage for so much. Whatever happened to the cult of personal responsibility I keep hearing about so much?

All that being said, it appears that they could have staged earlier, but I don't know how much warning they had about this particular Santa Ana winds event. And I'm not sure it would have made a tinker's-whatever difference.
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ALRIGHT! Knock that **** off! You are making too much sense and now I agree with you. Heaven help me. :yes:
 
mikea said:
Well, Mother Nature and a dozen or so basement dwellers who decided they can be big by starting fires.
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Exactly, the vast majority of these fires are set, some even by firefighters.
 
alaskaflyer said:
You pay for a certain amount of response capability, after an analysis of what your exposure is. Until someone invents a helicopter which can hover out-of-ground effect doing precision bucket work in 50G100, or a tanker that can do a bombing run in severe turbulence and extreme winds, yes, in some fires they sit looking pretty on the ramp, no matter what your theoretical response capability is.

Ground pounders always complain about the helislackers, and vice versa.

The firefighting budget in California exceeds the gross national product of 50% of the nations on the planet. Well, i have no idea if that is true :p but it probably is. Until people stop building houses in fire-prone areas (or stop expecting the state to save them when they do, I don't care which) you can only plan for and stage for so much. Whatever happened to the cult of personal responsibility I keep hearing about so much?

All that being said, it appears that they could have staged earlier, but I don't know how much warning they had about this particular Santa Ana winds event. And I'm not sure it would have made a tinker's-whatever difference.
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Hey, if you don't wanna read the article, or pay attention - that's fine. The 'crats have won. Sometimes I think that nearly everyone working in the response business has a case of 'white knight'. Enflame(in this case, quite literally) the problem until people die, or loose everything they have, then step up and start helping once the danger has passed. Oh, and make sure you get on the six o'clock too.

Twenty four hours to show up for work my ass. Where were they staged, Egypt?
 
Oh, I read the article. The difference is, I read the article from the perspective of someone who knows what I am talking about and who can see through the smokescreen (sorry) of poor journalism and political hackery. Similar to articles written about aviation by a reporter who doesn't know a Citabria from a Citation. They (the reporter, the politicians, the talking heads) don't even know the issues or responsibilities well enough to pinpoint what could have been wrong, much less what was wrong.

Nothing flies until it is 100% safe. The more stressful things get and the bigger the emergency, the slower you move. That is what keeps fire pilots (and firefighters and police officers and paramedics) alive.

As for people losing everything they had, well, hmmm...how many massive chaparral fires does it take before people learn that lesson? Why I'll never live in Cali.

Now, the C-130 cluster, that is another story.
 
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I fought forest fires for 5 summers when I was younger, during the mid- late 70's. 2 summers for the USFS in Calif and 3 for BLM in Colo. It is some of the hardest physical, most back breaking work I have ever done.

On one fire near Rifle, CO (1976?77?), one crew (not mine, but we were closest to them) lost 4 guys, because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, despite radio calls telling them to get back out of the gully they were in. That same fire, we lost 3 aircraft and their crews. A C-119 JATO, a B-25, and I do not remember what the 3rd one was.

I also had friends who got killed in the Storm King Fire, outside Glenwood Springs, CO (1994), when 14 firefighters were killed when over taken by the fire.

I was flying around the back side of Pikes Peak (just on the W side of KCOS) the day the Hayman Fire was started by some deranged USFS employee, which ultimately burned approx 350,000 acres, with 5 fire fighter deaths. That she is doing time in a Fed prison is deserved, and when she gets out, she gets to sit in a State Prison for several more years.

So you can imagine how discussions like these strike a pretty close chord for me. Mother Nature is a cruel ***** sometimes, and there is not a tough enough penalty for those who deliberately start these fires.

No differently than any of our Armed Forces overseas, these men and women who fight these fires need all of our support and the resources to do their jobs safely, and hopefully successfully!
 
For chrissakes! You have one of the most severe droughts in history coming after one of the wettest periods, with hurricane-force Santa Anna winds. And at the end of the day you've lost 2K houses (all built in highly fire-prone areas) and 3 people. If that isn't a success I don't know what is. When I think of the overpopulation in the area and the potential for disaster, I'm amazed SoCal got off that light. There is no blame for anything unless those things were set. If so, get the arsonists and subjet them to our wonderful penal system. Other than that, kudos to the firefighters and a job well done.
 
Henning said:
That's the way it was i Aus with the guy I flew for. They pay a stand by contract and planes (Dromadiers) were placed around the region with pilots and mechanics on ready alert, and CFS operated 337 spotters. The spotters call the location, you fire up the planes and fly out and the CFS guy directs the attack. Most fires would get caught while still tiny and were either doused or contained until ground crews arrived. But then you had a hot dry lightning storm, and all heck would break loose and everyone is flying for weeks.
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The USFS does that here. I've gotten to be pretty good friends a time or two with the SEAT contractors stationed at the airports in Southwestern Colorado. They had 801 Airtractors and just sat around waiting for the call. The Park Service had a Helitac crew doing the same thing, and the BIA had another Helo on contract and standing by. Most small fires were put out within a short amount of time after being spotted, but every once in a while they couldn't get a handle on it and then the airshow really started. There is a heavy base at DRO where either a couple PV-2's or P-3's are staged, and they'd come riding into town and help out when the SEATs couldn't handle it.

I don't know how the State of California handles things.
 
Once s/he gets the call, how long does it take someone to sober up, pack their gear, get to the transportation departure site, be transported to the new site, get their gear ready, and get adequate rest before reporting for extremely hazardous duty? The USAF standard for mobility-committed units was always 48 hours from notification to being ready to launch the first sortie out of the deployment base, and that was for all-out conventional theater warfare, so 24 hours for these fire crews doesn't seem at all unreasonably long to me.
 
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KennyFlys said:
Forrest Fire Fighters don't have "Five Minute Alerts"?
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Sure -- but only from the location they're at with the flyers they're working with. If you want them to move to another location and get hooked in with a different flying unit, that takes time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Sure -- but only from the location they're at with the flyers they're working with. If you want them to move to another location and get hooked in with a different flying unit, that takes time.
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I know. I was being sarcastic.

For other's understanding... I recall well the days of cruising in the Med with a Tomcat manned with an aircrew, engines turning and all that's left is slide the shuttle back and hook the launch bar. Our own squadron was on a 15 minute alerts at the same time as was a second Tomcat. Other squadrons were similarly ready for launch.
 
Update: rules, which were so important on Wed as homes burned, were abandoned the next day.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...RAFT?SITE=PAREA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

So, let's set out strict safety rules so that people aren't put in danger unneccisarily. Then, when the rules become an embarassment, they can be ignored. On Wed when the winds weren't up, and the helicopters could fly, they were grounded. By the time the spit hit the politcal fan, the rules were withdrawn, and the winds had picked up so that it wasn't safe.

I don't consider it important where homes were built, or who started the fires(different, but important discussion). Once the fires were burning, there's a quick window of time to contain it before it get's out of hand. Assets weren't put in place due to beaurocratic red tape. Bad result.
 
Interesting story on NPR this morning. After the 2003 fires in SD County, the fire department wanted to add 22 stations and more county owned helos. Voters turned it down and left San Diego to rely on state and federal resources for aerial fire fighting.

LA county, on the other hand, has spent a ton of money on their own resources. They had nine helos fighting the fires in their area within hours of the first call. The LA Fire Chief interviewed said that their pilots, by virtue of being completely familiar with the local terrain, could fly immediately (in the dark) in conditions that would not have been safe for pilots from out of the area. Those local resources, just like the fire truck in the station down the street, filled the gap until the state/federal resources were available. Net of it was, LA county did a better job of containing fires early.

Seems to me that the folks in San Diego might want to re-think building those additional fire stations and buying more helos.

Jay
 
N7702Y said:
Seems to me that the folks in San Diego might want to re-think building those additional fire stations and buying more helos.

Jay
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Indeed. I'd hardly consider any emergency service a "pork project." But, I bet they wasted some money on quite a few pretty foolish issues... like tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars fighting a nativity scene on public property. :rolleyes:
 
Just thought I'd mention that the introduction of modern technology ought to help in future situations:
He noted that some helicopters now carry radios to communicate directly with ground crews.
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Let's hope they can manage to get radios into even more helicopters.
 
FWIW I think that Socal, especially LA County does a pretty good job preparing for the 2 of the 3 big natural disasters (fire & quake, we haven't mastered the flood waters) that occur. IMHO the last set of fires were more then what a reasonable preparation could handle. Fires burned in just about every sizable "wild" area in SoCal with 50+ mph winds to fan them. They jumped 4 lane roads and started fires 1/2 mile away for crying out loud. The number of fires also made a mess of the resourse "pooling" policies that different cities and counties had with each other.

I'm not qualified in fire fighting, but I'm happy to live in an area that made reasonable preparations to protect itself. Politicians and -crats with always point fingers when stuff doesn't go well, but fact is logicistics get tough when you have to add resources at the last minute.
 
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