Which Twin?

Rykymus

Line Up and Wait
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Dec 24, 2014
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Allen, TX
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Rykymus
I am looking to upgrade in a few years and would like to start doing my research long ahead of time, so that I can make an informed, intelligent decision. (Unlike most of my decisions, which are usually rash, spur of the moment ones.)

I currently own a 98 Archer III. It's the plane I got my PPL, and recently my IR. I've got just under 500hrs PIC and about 120hrs XC. (Only 2.1hrs IMC, still fresh.) I bought it with about 1300 on its second engine. (About 5,000 TTAF. It was a trainer in a busy school for the first 5 years of its life.) The plan was (and still is) to use it for my PPL/IR, as well as for my nephew's PPL/IR. (He lives nearby, and wants to be a CFI and do ferry work, odd flying gigs, etc, no airlines.) I'm paying for his training in exchange for him being responsible for keeping the plane clean and ready to fly, and managing its maintenance. (Which I pay for, of course.) Also, he is my safety pilot for hood practice, and will be my BFR CFI. (I am a big believer in recurrent training/practice, etc.)

My plan is to run the engine out, sell the plane as a runout, and use the proceeds for a down on a larger, more capable plane. I enjoy my Archer, but I'm 6ft/260 (don't yell, I'm down from 300 and still losing). My wife is 5'6"/125, but still feels cramped and uneasy in the plane. (Probably because I take up so much room.) She is very sensitive to things like altitude, motion, etc, and I have yet to get her to fly more than 1.5 hrs without being physically and mentally wiped for at least 24hrs. 1 hour seems to be her comfortable max, at least in this plane. I know she enjoys flying, as she gets awfully excited at airports, and seeing things from above, and often suggests that we fly somewhere. (Sometimes even just a spin around town.) I think it is more of a mental thing than a physical one for her, but the mental aspect does effect her physically.

We both want to fly all over the country, (especially me) but I don't see it as possible in the Archer. After much discussion and speculation, I have determined that our next plane needs to be cabin class, preferably pressurized, and be a twin. (I'm not interested in the debate about twins, as I believe that planes are only as safe as the owner/pilot chooses to make them. I will be flying it regularly, and I will be doing quarterly review/practice flights to stay proficient.) Such a plane is likely to tick all the boxes necessary to make my wife feel "safe".

So, basically, she wants us to have our own private little airline.

Cost of acquisition, although a consideration, is not a completely limiting factor. Cost of operation is more of a concern. I'd prefer to keep the acquisition to about $500k. (But am willing to go higher for the right plane.) I'm not opposed to buying something that will need panel avionics upgrades and/or interior work in the near future, as long as it is a sound air frame with serviceable engines. (We both actually like the idea of being able to customize it to our needs/tastes, and I don't mind if it has to be in the shop for a few months immediately after purchase to get it ready for us.)

Missions would range from short hops around CA (we live in central CA) 50-300nm, trips up to OR/WA, and into Vegas. Also would likely do trips back east at least once per year. I can't really justify it as a business expense, as I'm a sci fi writer who works from home. Most trips would be just the two of us, while about 25% of the time we would have at least two others along. Rarely would we have more than 4 people aboard, including myself. So, 6 seats seems about right.

I have zero experience in twins at the moment, and I look to all of you for advice, as none of you are trying to sell me anything. Like I said, I have years to prepare. So far, I am attracted to Beech Dukes, Piper Mojaves, and for some reason, the Commander 500s. Might be willing to go turbine, but don't know anything about costs.

Please, ed-ju-mi-cate me!
 
You mentioned you are concerned with operating costs, what budget did you have in mind. A nice Cessna 414aw sounds in the budget but maybe a turbine would be better, pending budget?
 
If you wouldn't have specifically asked for a twin, I would have thought that a Cirrus SR22 would be the perfect fit.
 
A turbine twin could be had in that budget range. From what I have read, direct operating costs can/will be a little more than a similar piston twin. Turbines are crazy expensive fro OH or replacement, but you get several thousands of hours first. Garrets are much cheaper for OH and replacement compared to PW.

I dream about an MU2, Commander or King Air 90.

Enjoy the hunt.
 
I look at Dukes and 414's occasionally. A pressurized twin would be cool but I don't think it opens up that much more sky for me.

Go fly a Lance or a 'toga... you might be happy with one.

Don't buy a twin until you're rated AND have rented a bit.
 
That's just it, I have no idea what an operating budget might be. I currently spend about $5k/month for everything, and the plane is already paid off. I could spend twice that fairly easily. Knowing what to expect operation-budget-wise (not including loan payment, which I would factor seperately) would also help me to decide when to plan to make the transition. The higher the costs, the longer I have to wait. (Gotta build the franchise up to support my habits.)

Oh, and there's that pesky promise to the wife to pay off the house first. :rolleyes:
 
Oh my, that MU2 is nice.

I should add two things. For her, it's all about comfort. For me, I like to fly like I'm flying an airline. Smooth, efficient, and professional. For both of us, safety.
 
If you can find a hangar to keep it in, Aero Commander 5xx or 6xx piston. Rock solid, comfortable, great useful load. Engine out is pretty ho hum flying....set the power and dial in a little trim and head home.
 
If you wouldn't have specifically asked for a twin, I would have thought that a Cirrus SR22 would be the perfect fit.

Except it would tick none of his boxes? It's not cabin class, it's not that roomy for a... ahem.. full size person, it's not pressurized (and it's not twin).
 
Cessna T310, great payload, speed and handling characteristics are smooth as glass. I loved it!
 
I would remove the Duke from the list. It's a high maintenance plane that very few A&P's know well. Not many of them around so most mechanics would be learning at your expense. Those critters are so over-engineered it's ridiculous and complicated to work on. Just an A&P's opinion. Oh, and parts may be hard to vome by.
 
That's just it, I have no idea what an operating budget might be. I currently spend about $5k/month for everything, and the plane is already paid off. I could spend twice that fairly easily. Knowing what to expect operation-budget-wise (not including loan payment, which I would factor seperately) would also help me to decide when to plan to make the transition. The higher the costs, the longer I have to wait. (Gotta build the franchise up to support my habits.)

Oh, and there's that pesky promise to the wife to pay off the house first. :rolleyes:

5K a month for an Archer? You must be flying a crap load or have very high hangar / personal property taxes.
 
Except it would tick none of his boxes? It's not cabin class, it's not that roomy for a... ahem.. full size person, it's not pressurized (and it's not twin).

Since when did anyone here care about what the OP wants to know. Aren't you just supposed to ramble a bunch of unrelated useless **** that has nothing to do with the OPs question? Sorry, I thought that was what we were supposed to do based on every rely ever.
 
Since when did anyone here care about what the OP wants to know. Aren't you just supposed to ramble a bunch of unrelated useless **** that has nothing to do with the OPs question? Sorry, I thought that was what we were supposed to do based on every reply ever.

FTFY. We must also be pedantic.
 
FTFY. We must also be pedantic.

pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective
of or like a pedant.
"many of the essays are long, dense, and too pedantic to hold great appeal"
synonyms: overscrupulous, scrupulous, precise, exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist; casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical; captious, hair-splitting, quibbling; informalnitpicking, persnickety
"a pedantic interpretation of the rules"

Just incase anyone else had to look that one up
 
The second one in google land:
upload_2016-12-11_13-33-34.png
 

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I currently spend about $5k/month for everything, and the plane is already paid off. I could spend twice that fairly easily.
I'd be curious to see your monthly breakdown. 5k a month seems astronomically high for an Archer especially when that number doesn't even include a payment. o_O
 
this guy sounds like @stratobee long lost twin lol. Who knew there was a whole basket of balla's in left coast entertainment writers. :D

5K a month for an Archer? You must be flying a crap load or have very high hangar / personal property taxes.

You caught that too? My arrow runs me .5 AMU a month amortized all in before fuel. That Kalifornia living yo :eek:

10K/mo should cover about pretty much anything out there. 300NM range for the 80% mission is overkill for most turbine equipment. My vote is for a roomy piston twin.

Eff it, let's dream with this guy. I say Navajo. Your wife will cream her pants once she sees all that space all to herself.
 
Twin Commache is the most economical twin.
If he's spending 5k a month to operate an Archer and says he'd have no problem doubling that, I don't think he's too worried about economy.
 
Hmm... Bonanza?

I keed! But, with a wish list and budget as proposed by the OP, one word pops into my head; Aerostar. Get a 601/602P, perhaps even a 700... it doesn't have a yuge cabin, but for 2-4 people, it'd be plenty roomy. I only have a whopping 14 hours in 'em from my 135 days, but man, such a nice flying and fast machine. Maintenance? Dunno, I left that to the guys in the shop, but gotta be less painful than a Duke. I'd hope. If I so much as look at a Duke my wallet hurts and they're not even on my radar to own one!
 
Well, a Twin Commache costs about twice as much to run as an Archer.
 
In the long run, you would be better served by a turboprop. Commander 690B, MU-2, Conquest, Cheyenne would be great options to consider. Be wary of the oddball pressurized twins like the Duke and Mojave. Maintenance and parts will be frustrating. A 414 or 421 would be a much better choice if you do go piston.
 
alot of nice 310s around skip the turbo though
 
Seems to me that if you really want a cabin class piston twin instead of a turboprop, you'd be best off with a something more common like a 340, 414, or 421.
 
I had an earlier version of the Commander 500, the 520. Great airplanes, very roomy, solid, good bush plane, but a little slower than some similar twins with less roomy cabins. Price you pay for that nice and wide cabin. The 500B probably the best piston they made. Rock solid. And that's why they keep their value.

Speed demon and a very well built and supported airplane was my next, the Aerostar. Not a short field plane and the cabin is on the smaller side (might be a problem for your wife), but a great mini airliner. Pressurized comfort. Flies better than anything else I've ever flown. Fast and very frugal on the fuel. My 601P did 200kts on 25gal/hr LOP at around FL200. That's miserly for a twin. The 700's will do over 250kts, but then you're burning 45-50gal/hr.

If you can swing the acquisition costs and the upkeep, a turbine is in a class by itself. I stepped up recently to a Turbo Commander and it's a very nice performance, but too early to talk about operating costs etc. My one does about 245-250kts on 60gal/hr at FL180-200. The later -10 models do 300kts on the same fuel burn up at FL280. You can get into a 690A or B for $500K, with decent times on stuff. Just make sure you can write a check for $28K when the Fuel Control Unit craps out, or the enviro system starts messing with you. A hot section is about $50K. But once you go turbine it's hard to go back. MU-2's also nice, very well built, just needs a little more recurrent training and not as forgiving.

Good luck!
 
For $10,000 a month, wouldn't you be better just to charter a king air where you wanted to go?

And have money left over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
With a $500k acquisition budget and a $10k/mo operating budget, you've got a lot of options.

In the piston world (not all are cabin class or pressurized, but all are a big step up from the Archer):
Cessna 414 and 421
Aerostar
Piper Seneca V and Navajo (regular and P)
500-series Commanders
Beech Baron (58, 58P), Duke and maybe the Twin Bonanza (huge cabin, you could have the best in the country on half your budget)

Turbines:
Mits Mu2
Turbo Commanders (690)
Cessna Conquest (probably a budget stretch)
Piper Cheyenne
Merlin III

Anecdotally, I think you'll find reports that you can own/operate a turbine twin like an MU2 for not much more than something like a 414 or 421. You'll burn some more gas, but many report that routine maintenance is less. Of course, your maintenance exposure is much higher with the cost of potential HSI and overhaul. But if you buy the right specimen, you may have a lot of time before those events happen (turbines have rather high TBO). All that said, with only 500tt, a turbine is a big, big step. You'll likely need significant mentor time. Not to say you shouldn't do it, but consider making a slightly smaller step into something like a 58 Baron first, fly that for a couple hundred hours, then move on up. That'll help both your insurability and your safety. At $500k, you should be able to get a very, very nice Baron with nice things like factory air conditioning. Big doors in the back and plenty of room for your wife to stretch out.
 
alot of nice 310s around skip the turbo though
Why? He mentioned he'll be flying around the country (i.e. High DA's)

Plus the Ram conversion (T310R) increases HP and SEI performance.
 
some very expensive ad s one that comes to mind is the $45k exhaust one that might have been skipped and i think it is reoccurring. how do you spell inckcanol ?
 
bradge a low time pilot in a aerostar or mu2 wtf?
 
bradge a low time pilot in a aerostar or mu2 wtf?

You obviously didn't read my caveat below the list. Properly trained, a 500hr pilot can be safe in either airplane. But it's going to require a lot of dual and the Mu2 will require a lot of mentor time after the dual.
 
Where turbo comes in handy is outclimbing the weather (and ice).

Twin, pressurized and deice. They exist. You can fly in IMC in the western mountains with one of those. Aspen, Sun Valley, Taos, Steamboat, Jackson Hole etc. Whoo wee! Big leagues!
 
bradge, i am sure he would like to have some insurance not going to happen
 
The $5k/month covers all expenses. Hangar ($200) fuel, oil changes, and even FBO and rental car fees at destinations. And yeah, I fly alot. Probably 2-3 times per week on average. Most of them 1 hr hops to Monterey, Half Moon Bay, Sac, and maybe once per month to SoCal. I also put $1k/mo away for unexpected maintenance and toward annual. All that said, I don't always use the entire $5k. But that is my current budget limit. (As approved by the family CFO, if you get my drift.)

I'm not opposed to stepping my way up, if going from the Archer to a twin is a dangerous step. Even if it means going to another single. (I was originally planning on going to a Saratoga next.) I'm also not opposed to doing a lot of training to be ready. Like I said, this transition is years away, and during that time I plan on getting my HP/Complex, Multi, and CPL, as well as doing as much renting of the Seneca II that I'll be doing my ME training in. I just was hoping to make my next aircraft be my last, so that I can put money into making her perfect for us, without having to worry about not recouping the investment.
 
Except it would tick none of his boxes? It's not cabin class, it's not that roomy for a... ahem.. full size person, it's not pressurized (and it's not twin).

Plus he would have the stigma of being a Cirrus driver.
 
I think you want this

IMG_0195_zps0iiepoqg.jpg
 
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