Which Planes to Consider?

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ranger5oh

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ranger5oh
Hi All! Student pilot here (43yrs old). I expect to have my PPL by spring and am trying to determine which planes will suit my mission. I live in the Denver area and will be making probably 8-10 flights per year back to Missouri (about 750-800nm). I will be making other trips that will be much shorter for vacations all around the west. Given the long flights, I'd like something faster than the 172 I am training on.

I have two young children (7 and 8 currently) and a wife that will be traveling with me for all of these trips (plus a backpack of clothes each). I'd like to keep plane-only purchase cost somewhere in the $200k range +/- $50k.

Ive been looking at some Cessna 182s and Piper Dakotas. I have a friend with a Mooney that I like, but I think I want to stay with fixed gear until I reach a lot more hours. What other planes should I consider?

Thanks all!
 
Cessna 206 and some other 20x variants with fixed gear.
Cherokee 6/260 and 6/300
You might be wanting something Turbo as well not a must but would make the summer high DA takeoffs and climb outs a lot easier
 
ranger5oh said:
I hadn't really considered 6-seaters, but maybe I should. Do you think this is a better option than the 182 or Dakota?
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How big are you and your wife? Are your kids likely to grow up to be larger than you two?

PA32 is certainly more comfy for them as well as easier for them to board/disembark.
 
Sinistar said:
Cessna 206 and some other 20x variants with fixed gear.
Cherokee 6/260 and 6/300
You might be wanting something Turbo as well not a must but would make the summer high DA takeoffs and climb outs a lot easier
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I see you are also recommending 6-seaters. Is this more from a comfort perspective, or weight and balance.. or both?
 
asicer said:
How big are you and your wife? Are your kids likely to grow up to be larger than you two?

PA32 is certainly more comfy for them as well as easier for them to board/disembark.
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We are probably what you would consider average size. I am 5'11 and 185lb, wife is a very athletic 135lbs, kids are currently about 55 and 65 lbs each (but they grow quick).
 
The Dakota and 182 (when stock) will do around 150mph ground speed (no winds) running around 12GPH. The 182 will be more roomy...just my opinion but we own a 182 and I have several rides in Dakota's. The Dakota looks nicer and might haul another 100lbs more than the skylane.

The 6/260 and 6/300's won't be any faster and will burn even more fuel. But the room and weight and balance will be phenomal. I know someone who sold his Bonanza because W&B for a family trip like yours was a PITA. He removed the second row seats in the PA32 and loved it but was too slow / fuel burn.

800nm is a long trip at those speeds if you plan to do it often. You will be stopping to refuel in pretty much any plane in your range so that starts the negate the speed of the mooney (but not the fuel efficiency!)

If I was doing this trip often and didn't want retract I think this is Cirrus / TTx / RV10 territory. But those prices are a lot higher.
 
Watch some of the @FlyingMonkey Youtube videos for family flying a 6/300. I think his videos are very well made, seems pretty humble and will show that plane pretty nicely.

For 6 seaters insurance will be higher though.
 
ranger5oh said:
We are probably what you would consider average size. I am 5'11 and 185lb, wife is a very athletic 135lbs, kids are currently about 55 and 65 lbs each (but they grow quick).
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1 boy + 1 girl? Or 2 girls? If so take you and your wife and double it (i.e. assume your kids grow to your same size). Otherwise, add three of yourself to your wife. That puts you in the 640lb-690lb range plus bags. And those bags are going to depend on your wife+kids packing style. A PA32 would come in very handy for that. Otherwise, if they tend to be lean when they pack, a 182 or Dakota should do nicely.
 
Dakota's are few and far between, for what they go for I'd look at a PA32. Besides, shoulder room is WAAAAYYYY underrated. I fly in both a pa28 and pa32. The 7extra inches makes a cross country so much more comfortable.

In my opinion, a 6 place is really a 4 place with room for full fuel and baggage. And a 4 place is really a 2 place with room for full fuel and baggage. Granted your kids are small...now. But those 7&8 yr olds get big quick. Add 150+ pounds to your theoretical gross and see what happens. Personally, I hate leaving fuel behind. It's like an intersection takeoff.
 
Sinistar said:
The Dakota and 182 (when stock) will do around 150mph ground speed (no winds) running around 12GPH. The 182 will be more roomy...just my opinion but we own a 182 and I have several rides in Dakota's. The Dakota looks nicer and might haul another 100lbs more than the skylane.

The 6/260 and 6/300's won't be any faster and will burn even more fuel. But the room and weight and balance will be phenomal. I know someone who sold his Bonanza because W&B for a family trip like yours was a PITA. He removed the second row seats in the PA32 and loved it but was too slow / fuel burn.

800nm is a long trip at those speeds if you plan to do it often. You will be stopping to refuel in pretty much any plane in your range so that starts the negate the speed of the mooney (but not the fuel efficiency!)

If I was doing this trip often and didn't want retract I think this is Cirrus / TTx / RV10 territory. But those prices are a lot higher.
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Thanks, this is good info.

My friend in the Mooney makes the trip non-stop, but he only travels with 1 other person. I can certainly see my kids wanting to stretch and pee midway.

I had considered Cirrus, they obviously look quite nice. Are Cirrus operating costs a lot higher, or just initial purchase?
 
asicer said:
1 boy + 1 girl? Or 2 girls? If so take you and your wife and double it (i.e. assume your kids grow to your same size). Otherwise, add three of yourself to your wife. That puts you in the 640lb-690lb range plus bags. And those bags are going to depend on your wife+kids packing style. A PA32 would come in very handy for that. Otherwise, if they tend to be lean when they pack, a 182 or Dakota should do nicely.
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1 boy and 1 girl. I pack very light... but my wife ...different story :) I am already priming her on the "you are going to need to pack much lighter" aspect of flying.
 
Racerx said:
Dakota's are few and far between, for what they go for I'd look at a PA32. Besides, shoulder room is WAAAAYYYY underrated. I fly in both a pa28 and pa32. The 7extra inches makes a cross country so much more comfortable.

In my opinion, a 6 place is really a 4 place with room for full fuel and baggage. And a 4 place is really a 2 place with room for full fuel and baggage. Granted your kids are small...now. But those 7&8 yr olds get big quick. Add 150+ pounds to your theoretical gross and see what happens. Personally, I hate leaving fuel behind. It's like an intersection takeoff.
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This makes a lot of sense.
 
Maybe the planes you're considering are big enough that this is not an issue, but the smaller/less-expensive 4-seat planes (Cherokee 180s, 180hp 172s, etc.) are well-known for not actually being able to carry four full-size people. Six-seat planes will have the load capacity to carry four adults and luggage with ease.

Make sure you examine multiple W&B scenarios for any plane you consider, and if you plan to keep the plane for a while, take a careful look into the future. Most folks get heavier as they get older. Some adults break that pattern, but healthy kids never do. (And while I don't know your situation, I came along when my dad was 49, so that could also be a consideration.)
 
One more thing to consider the typical outbound and return legs. Lets assume an average of 20mph headwind / tailwind and 150mph groundspeed with no winds which is about the same for all (4) of those planes.

So your outboard (easterly) flight will take about 6hrs and 30min accounting for some climb, pattern etc. For the Dakota/Skylane thats gonna be about 78 gal which some skylane tanks are exactly that, some are only 60 gallons and I think newer ones hold more. But no way with family you'll do that much and you would be running fumes. So you are looking at another 30-45min delay which would be nice to stretch a bit, potty and go. So no less than 7hrs out. With the extra stop you probably will need another 6 or so gallons so just use 85 gallons to get there. And that is $425 to get there at $5/gal in the smaller planes. Use about 15gph for the 6/300 and you will need at least 110 gallons or about $550.

The return gets a bit more interesting. The return takes about 7hrs 30min with a stop. So add another 12 or 15 gallons or like $500 or $625 to get home. But lets say you find yourself in a 40mph headwind thats almost 9hrs in the air including the stop. And that is $550 or $675 to get home.
 
ranger5oh said:
Thanks, this is good info.

My friend in the Mooney makes the trip non-stop, but he only travels with 1 other person. I can certainly see my kids wanting to stretch and pee midway.

I had considered Cirrus, they obviously look quite nice. Are Cirrus operating costs a lot higher, or just initial purchase?
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I didn't realize people in Mooney's are doing over 900sm trips withouth a stop - wow! But they are fast and sip fuel.

Cirrus operating costs are just as complicated as other airplane costs. I don't know them well enough. I suspect you will have an average ground speed of around 200mph and burn around 15GPH. For the full family loaded I am guessing it won't hold enough fuel for the one trip. Although it would be around 4.5hrs going east which is right on the edge for most adults, probably too much for the kiddies. So throw in that stop and you are getting closer to 5hrs 15min. So about 1hr 45min faster than the older planes.

Annuals will be more. Chute repack is more, etc.
 
If you want to regularly travel with the kids and bags, you need a 6 seater or a Dakota/Pathfinder. Or a twin. How big are you guys? If you're smaller people, you might get away with something that others can't.

ranger5oh said:
Thanks, this is good info.

My friend in the Mooney makes the trip non-stop, but he only travels with 1 other person. I can certainly see my kids wanting to stretch and pee midway.

I had considered Cirrus, they obviously look quite nice. Are Cirrus operating costs a lot higher, or just initial purchase?
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The nice thing about a Mooney is you can trade gas for weight at a pretty decent clip. You can always train them to use travel johns, but a 400+ nm leg is nothing to sneeze at.

Sinistar said:
I didn't realize people in Mooney's are doing over 900sm trips withouth a stop - wow! But they are fast and sip fuel.
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The Ovation advertises a legitimate 900 nm at best power - 50 rich, and you're doing over 190 knots. At best economy, 50 lean, it advertises 1275 nm. 12 GPH for 175 knots with all the gas they hold will take you a long way. They advertise that you'll do 10.4 GPH and 176 KTAS at 50 lean at 14000 (many Ovations have built in O2 for these borderline situations). You're taking 2 people and reasonable bags at that though, not the kids - unless the heaviest of you is 150.
 
Lots of good suggestions here.

Keep training and then start trying out different planes in the area that you can find as rentals. Unfortunately it can be hard to find some of those listed here on the rental line. Don't totally give up on the retract options. A 182RG will move along pretty well and haul quite a bit.

At this point keep focusing on rental options. See how it works for you and the family. Then start looking at club, partnership, sole ownership options.

For bigger distances speed is a big help. Helps over come headwinds; think of them not in knots, but in percentage of your plane's TAS. The slower the plane, the bigger the impact. Speed also means options. From longer trips to swinging around rain/thunderstorms/ice.

If you are doing trips regularly you will want to work on an Instrument Rating too. Just gives you lots of more weather options. It may not help as much on the Denver side due to ice, but it will on the Missouri side.

One potentially good option is a partnership/co-ownership. You can get more plane (or the plane you want at a lower capital investment) and lower your fixed costs. There are lots of fixed costs; insurance, hangar/tie-down, database updates, annual, etc. Having a partner or two significantly lowers the capital and fixed costs. Lots of people worry about access, but most people in co-ownerships will tell you it's not a big problem. I've been in two non-equity partnership and now an equity partnership; 4 pilots, 3 pilots and 3 pilot respectively. Scheduling conflicts have not been a common thing in any of them. In the first group, we had 4 pilots sharing a SR22 for 4.5 years and had two scheduling conflicts in the whole time and those were resolved easily by our scheduling rules; no fuss, no muss.
 
I’d wait & see if the family will fly with you, particularly your wife. I see a lot of guys flying 6-seat planes solo. Usually there is a story behind it.

Truth is, flying is fun & exciting for you, exciting & frightening for the spouse, & boring for the kids.

Wait to determine your real mission profile, not your imaginary mission profile. After all, I read that a lot of modern families split up onto two airliners, afraid to risk genetic extinction on a single dual ATR-piloted, dual engine, multi-million dollar cockpit contraption. How do you stack up in your used, single engine plane & low-time ppl?
 
This is a journey. There are many ways to get from here to there. The way I would suggest is to finish your PPL and then do some short trips with part or all of your family. The 172 with a spouse and two young kids is good for a short trip, so take some of those. If you get buy-in from the family, then explore your mission definition a bit more with longer trips and maybe a rented 182 or the like if possible. You’ll eventually understand your mission well enough to know what kind of plane you need as your kids grow.
 
I would not fly in a small plane to Missouri from Denver. It should take less time and money to fly commercially, and you don't have to worry about the weather.

You can easily find a C182 with a 1250+ useful load (P, Q, or R model). With 80 gal of fuel, you have close to 800 lbs of payload and a huge baggage compartment. If you plan to fly around the mountains in the West, get a PPonk-ed version.

SR22 or TN Bonanza would be my choice if you are set on going to Missouri.
 
MountainDude said:
I would not fly in a small plane to Missouri from Denver. It should take less time and money to fly commercially, and you don't have to worry about the weather.
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+1, especially with someone who just earned their PPL certificate. To the OP, there are many steps/stages of flying that you will learn. 8 round trip missions/flights a year at 800 miles is a big task for a VFR only pilot. I have been stuck places for up to a week waiting for weather to cooperate with a VFR flight plan. Earn your PPL, then instrument and high performance ratings. By then you can make a rational decision how you want to travel.

Then get a Beech A-36....:rolleyes:
img.axd
 
texasclouds said:
Bonanza?
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As often as "Bonanza" is the answer here I have to say "182" would be a good answer. I've got zero time in a straight leg but many, many hours in an RG. My reaction on my very first takeoff in one as a safety pilot was "this thing is everything a 172 is not" and after hundreds of hours in one I have never changed my mind.
It has balls, lifts a lot and goes plenty fast.

Plan B? Cardinal RG. Lifts way more weight than most people think, good cruise, never a CG problem.
 
A 4-seat airplane makes a lousy 4-person airplane.

A 6-seat airplane makes a great 4-person airplane and affords luggage.

living in Denver a turbocharger is a good idea.
 
N1120A said:
The nice thing about a Mooney is you can trade gas for weight at a pretty decent clip. You can always train them to use travel johns, but a 400+ nm leg is nothing to sneeze at..
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Easily done in 3 hours in any modern Mooney, given his age no johns required if they refrain from drinking liquids before the flight.
 
ranger5oh said:
Hi All! Student pilot here (43yrs old). I expect to have my PPL by spring and am trying to determine which planes will suit my mission. I live in the Denver area and will be making probably 8-10 flights per year back to Missouri (about 750-800nm). I will be making other trips that will be much shorter for vacations all around the west. Given the long flights, I'd like something faster than the 172 I am training on.

I have two young children (7 and 8 currently) and a wife that will be traveling with me for all of these trips (plus a backpack of clothes each). I'd like to keep plane-only purchase cost somewhere in the $200k range +/- $50k.

Ive been looking at some Cessna 182s and Piper Dakotas. I have a friend with a Mooney that I like, but I think I want to stay with fixed gear until I reach a lot more hours. What other planes should I consider?

Thanks all!
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Missouri is a big state and unless you are in NW corner most fixed gear airplanes will require a fuel stop going back west.
 
Luggage may not matter much if you are going to the same place in Missouri (family house for example)

then you only need your wallet phone sized essentials
 
The 182 RG was great as a family plane, 2 kids plus 2 dogs plus luggage and full fuel. But the dogs were only 20 pounds each and our kids stayed skinny even as teens; neither my husband nor I are obese, and we know how to pack light. Plus our longest journey was just half yours. I agree yours is a hard mission VFR. Mark’s IR made all the difference, course we were back East with all the haze. I also agree with the suggestion to rent to try them out, we rented a Cardinal before we bought our 172, then ended up with the 182 after all as the kids got bigger. The 172 was great for the 1.25 hour hop to the beach when they were small and for me to train in. The twin Baron was the best but by then the kids were grown and gone and the main mission had changed to Mark flying over the mountains in the other direction.
 
ranger5oh said:
1 boy and 1 girl. I pack very light... but my wife ...different story :) I am already priming her on the "you are going to need to pack much lighter" aspect of flying.
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God luck with that. I drove 12 hours to Pigeon Forge because my wife can’t grasp pack light. Could have done the flight in 5.
 
As suggested, learn to fly. Take a few trips with rentals. Begin with shorter trips. Once you get your feet wet, you will have a whole new perspective of what fits. There is a reason C-182's are popular. They are great all around airplanes. Looking into the 6 seat planes are certainly good for the extra payload. A Turbo is great, and expensive and not required, but very nice to have. So get some experience, then you'll have a better idea of what fits. As for the retracts, leave it to the higher time crowd. Really great, but again not needed with your mission. I love the Bonanza. One of the greatest all time aircraft ever. Again, leave it to the higher time pilots. You don't need it, maybe some day, not today.
 
I'm going to make one of my "I'm probably going to sound like a jerk, but" posts. This time, with OP being 43 and having an 8 year old, you can probably relate to the concept that decisions you made as an 18 yr old may not have as well informed as decisions you made as a 30 yr old. With time, most people add to their wisdom. So rent a few planes, and fly for a couple of hundred hours, before you buy a plane.

The specific thing I'll say is that on paper a Dakota might look like a 182, but to me it looks more like a Cherokee. And I like Cherokees and have flown a Dakota a few times. They carry weight fine, and fly great, but I wouldn't call them roomy.
 
The good news is your thinking "What's my mission?" The bad news is you don't have a lot of experience to fall back on. Being in Denver, you might have rental options. That used to be the way to go -- but nowadays finding a rental is not easy outside of training and local flying. Definitely explore flying clubs.

Know your real budget and don't get in a hurry. Know the cost of ownership of the airplane you want or are considering. How much is that BRS repack on a Cirrus and is it going to happen about the same time the engine times out? Just an example.

Being in Denver I'd look seriously at a T182. When the kids grow up, consider an upgrade to a T210. 3:45 KAPA-KSTL in my non-turbo 210, easy non-stop. One stop coming back, 5:24 is too long and too skosh. I did OSA-APA or COS a bunch in a 177RG -- about the same time/distance as MO from Denver.

As far as going west, O2 and mountain flying class. But I've never gone west out of Denver, so I defer to the mountain flyers for that.
 
An SR22T would be great for that mission but they are still quite expensive. A naturally aspirated G2 SR22 should be an option in that range (I think) while being a bit less enthusiastic in climbing out of Denver. But still totally feasible and IMO a good option. I used to routinely fly my NA SR22 from OH to Denver many times a year because we lived in OH and my ex's family was in Broomfield.

Where in MO are you going? We fly to MO now a few times a year to visit my in-laws who live in Macon (K89) and I used to fuel stop somewhere in your neighborhood (KAPA or KPUB typically) as well so I am quite familiar with that route.
 
With your Budget you can’t go wrong with a 182. You can get a nice Q model with gross weight increase STC or a newer S model for somewhere in that price range. I have lived this discussion my whole life. My family was a Cessna Dealer and Piper at one point and my dads first question was what do you want it to do… and the next thing he said was that airplane your looking at wont do it 90% of the time for what they want. Let’s be honest a 182 or 206 at max gross feel no different then they do at 1/2 load. Maybe a little more lethargic on the roll but I have never had an issue in the 182 at max gross and High DA.I have Lycon Cylinders and I see 140 true every flight. 88 gallons of useable fuel at altitude I’m down to 10.6-11 gph.There are really good options out there. Do you like low wings? Or high wings? It makes a difference. My friend has a Beach Sierra his visibility is unreal and its pretty fast for what it is 135 all day long. Biggest baggage door I have ever seen…however…… it’s the ugliest airplane I have ever seen. (Personal opinion) If anything the ugliest Beach product for the ones I offended. Pipers fly great if you wanna deal with one damn door and stepping over seats all the time I can’t stand it. You also have the Cherokee 6 or Saratoga. But then again have you looked at insurance ??????? If you have no retract time forget it. And for anyone who says otherwise has $$$$$$ because My insurance this year with gaining a Commercial,CFI and 150 hours of flight time this year went up 1,300$ thanks the the 737 max. SR22s are amazing but not in that price range your going to get a clapped out motor and high time airframe. A 210 would be perfect in my opinion but then again… Insurance… If that’s no issue then I would 100% look into a 210. Remember High DA you are already at a loss. So turbo? Well….. more mx cost. You can find a 182T or 206T or maybe you just say forget it and find a Bonanza and never look back. It is the ultimate machine….sexy,fast,safe,built like a tank, parts are easy, comfortable……. But here we go again…. Insurance you add that retract and $$$$$$ goes crazy. To me you need a 6 seater not a 4. It’s like using a 1500 he I to tow a 9k trailer yea it can but its not a great idea when you could have a 2500 Cummins. When it comes to airplanes you run out of power and useable load real real quick. Everyone seems to forget about the weight adding up with 4 people now your adding of 4 I pads 4 headsets 4 bottles of water and snacks, 4 jackets, straps for tie downs, oil, tools, tow bar,see what I’m saying…. The weight increases without even thinking about the normal things. Just my opinion some people wont agree but they probably don’t have to clear 12k mountain ranges. IFR? VFR? You may not be able to depart airports cause you can’t reach the DP,ODP requirement. All these things to take into consideration.
 
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